Be honest-$$ aside, how many would go DC over cyclone?

[Kerry McInerney]

I've read many of the posts here re which DC is best. Invariably, someone counsels that the we should forego a DC in favor of saving up for a decent cyclone. Most agree, but few (yours truly included) don't have the $ to plunk down on a cyclone (and often related electrical work).

So, here's my question, and please be honest: If money were no object, how many of you would go DC instead of cyclone, and why?

Follow up question: For a small, weekend shop, which cyclone would you go with (Grizzly, Oneida, Clearvue, Penn State, and JDS being the main competitors for hobbyist cyclones)?

Thanks, everyone.

KPM

[Ray Schafer]

I thought a cyclone was a type of DC, so I guess I don't know the difference. Can you explain?

[Kerry McInerney]

Sorry, you're right--my question is ambiguous...I'm talking about the difference between a cyclone and a portable DC (Delta 50-760, Jet DC1100, etc.).

[Art Mulder]

Space is also a concern. A cyclone is pretty big.

But the problem is that money always is a concern. If money truly weren't a concern, then most of us would pick a shop the size of Norm's and just as well equipped... which means "cadillac" versions of every tool

[Ken Fitzgerald]

As in all things involved in a hobby or a business......most things are a matter of money....and space.

You have to decide....what do you have space for......what can you afford.....and get that which is right for you and your circumstances. What is right for my situation may not be right for you.

[Dick Sylvan]

Space is also a concern. A cyclone is pretty big.

But the problem is that money always is a concern. If money truly weren't a concern, then most of us would pick a shop the size of Norm's and just as well equipped... which means "cadillac" versions of every tool

I have a small shop and have installed a ClearVue. I think the idea of rolling a "portable" DC around the shop is a huge PITA and it is a poor second to a cyclone as far as actually doing what is intended. Sometimes I think cost is more a factor of what you can get away with rather than true "affordability". There are thousands of working class guys who own bass boats and for the price of a bass boat, you could equip a very nice shop, IMO.

[Brad Shipton]

If money was not a consideration I would put in a Felder RL125 in a heartbeat. I put in a Clearvue so all machines would be connected. I found far too many times I would not always hook up the portable one and would end up hacking up at the end of the day. You know, one quick cut, oops, look at the air now. After watching the Dylos for some time now, i sure am glad I connected all the machines. If you are patient and always hook up the portable thats great, but otherwise your health demands a better solution.

Brad

[Bill Wyko]

FYI the Jet 1100cfm unit after running through 15 ft of hose is more like 450 cfm. Tested mine with a wind speed meter. 1100cfm is only applicable in the ILS mode (I-f L-ightning S-trikes:D)otherwise it's just a breeze in a tube.:o

[Greg Peterson]

Single stage DC vs. cyclone. Let's see.

Were cost no object, not only would I have a cyclone, but also a shop large enough to justify and accommodate it.

One can get adequate performance out of a single stage unit. You won't be able to run multiple machines concurrently, but in most hobbyist's shops I doubt that's a deal breaker.

A hard plumbed cyclone does have greater convenience than a single stage.

Capturing fine particulate at the point of creation is critical and usually requires a fair bit of customization by the shop operator. A cyclone or single stage unit is kind of the icing on the cake. Without an excellent fine particulate capturing implementation, even a five horse DC will be useless.


So while I would really enjoy the convenience and performance of a cyclone, having one would be like trying to drive a Ferrari to and from work.

[Anthony Whitesell]

From what I've heard noise is also an issue with the cyclones. Betwen the noise and space requirements for a cyclone, I would have to vote for a high HP (2-3HP) DC for a basement shop such as mine with a separator inline for the jointer and planer chips.

[Cody Colston]

I have a small shop and have installed a ClearVue. I think the idea of rolling a "portable" DC around the shop is a huge PITA and it is a poor second to a cyclone as far as actually doing what is intended. Sometimes I think cost is more a factor of what you can get away with rather than true "affordability". There are thousands of working class guys who own bass boats and for the price of a bass boat, you could equip a very nice shop, IMO.

I totally agree and just today I was thinking about the bass boat vs my shop and tools...the bass boat costs more.

I've got several Grizzly tools and even a Ryobi or two. I don't own any Festool stuff nor will I ever...it's just too expensive for my blood and my hobby shop. However, when I decided on a dust collector I went with the 2hp commercial Oneida. It's the only DC I've ever used but I can't imagine one performing any better. It's the centerpiece of my shop and every time I go in there I'm glad I waited until I could afford it.

[Ken Harrod]

I am expecting my cyclone to run about $600 total. $100 for 5hp motor, $70 for Jet Impeller, $50 for arbor, $60 for the sheet metal for cyclone, $20 for soldering supplies, $20 for various screws & bolts, $30 MDF, $150 for 2 Farr Filters, $20 for paint and primer.

That does not include the piping, blast gates (probably will make them too), and flex hose. These items would be needed for a cyclone or the "standard" DC systems, so I was not including them in the price.

[Jim Becker]

Space is also a concern. A cyclone is pretty big.

The "footprint" of a cyclone is typically less than any single stage DC.

[Art Mulder]

The "footprint" of a cyclone is typically less than any single stage DC.

:confused: :confused: :confused: Where are you getting those numbers, Jim? :confused: :confused: :confused:

I believe you've got a 2hp Oneida Super dust gorilla? According to their website (http://www.oneida-air.com/gorilla_2hp_super.php), the footprint of that unit is: ' - Footprint w/ Ext. Cartridge: 27" x 49" '

I just went downstairs to my shop and measured my average tai/chi 2hp single-bag single-stage DC unit. The bag on it has a diameter of 20-21", and the base is about 40" long. So, to err on the side of caution I'll call that 24" x 42", less than the Oneida unit. And, the motor+blower on my unit tucks underneath a series of three shelves (see a photo in this thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=73870)) which makes for some space savings.

I really don't think a cyclone would fit in that sort of space.

[Joe Jensen]

From what I've heard noise is also an issue with the cyclones. Betwen the noise and space requirements for a cyclone, I would have to vote for a high HP (2-3HP) DC for a basement shop such as mine with a separator inline for the jointer and planer chips.

In my experience this is not true. I've used many systems with dust collection. All 2 stage collectors were louder than all Cyclones. I haven't used a clearview so I can't comment on them, but my Oneida is much quieter than my friends Grizzly 2 stage...joe

[Tim Anderson]

I'm currently upgrading my dust collection from a portable bag unit to an Oneida. Moving the unit between machines was a hassle. The Oneida is much quieter and has more power. With the filter attached, the cyclone has a slightly bigger footprint. I had to think long and hard on spending the money and still wonder if its overkill. I won't know if I made a good decision hopefully for several years if my hearing and lungs stay healthy.

[Jim Dunn]

The "footprint" of a cyclone is typically less than any single stage DC.
Ah yes but it's a very TALL footprint. I measured and the cyclone over the 1100 Jet DC that I have is about 2' different in height.

[Dave MacArthur]

I'm an avid dust collection reader... it's become kind of a hobby. Now I can't buy a cyclone, or it would kill my enjoyable hobby of studying DC ;)

Until this week, I would have said "Cyclone! 5HP Pentz design or clearvue!". However, there are some very interesting results leaking out from the dylos dustmeter owners. Namely, total particulate counts in the small harmful may NOT actually be lower for folks using cyclones vs. single stage 1.5-ish HP DC. Generally the cyclone is used vs. just a blower, to scrub the airflow to the very maximum amount you can, in preparation for feeding it through a filter and back into the shop.
---if you're not going to feed it back into the shop (exhause outside), then you don't need a great filter or in fact any filter, thus you don't need to scrub the fines out to keep filter from being destroyed, thus you don't need a cyclone... cyclones are a COSTLY reduction in total CFM from a blower which are only justified if you are trying to really scrub the airflow.

But what if it turns out that, in the real-world of small-woodworking-shops, the 900 CFM from a cyclone at the tool just doesn't make any difference to the total "fines" vs. a 500CFM dust collector? What if the creation of these 5 micron and smaller exceeds the collection ability of the HOODS on our tools by such an order of magnitude, that the relatively similar 900 CFM vs. 450 CFM just doesn't matter?

Apparently it takes 50 FPM airflow to gather these "fines". Airflow (Suction ) pulls air inwards towards a "point source" in accordance with the ratio of the surface area of a sphere--the FeetPerMinute is the critical number, and it is generated by a Cubic Feet (ft*ft*ft) per Minute of suction/airflow across an area boundary (ft*ft) some distance (radius R) away from the point source. If we take the CFM and divide by the surface area across which it flows, we are left with the Feet/minute speed of the airflow. Therefore, when CFM stays constant, FPM drops off in the inverse ratio of the surface area of a sphere. The surface area of a sphere is 4(pi) R*R, or 12.56 R*R--the area increases as the square of radius.

What's it mean? Let's take two commonly accepted estimates for delivered CFM at the dust port for a 1.5 HP Delta 50-760 dust collector, and for a cyclone: 450 CFM and about double that for cyclone, 900 CFM.

At 10.2 inches from the suction source, the airflow drops off to 50 FPM for the DC, and at 14.4 inches for the cyclone! So all the $ and effort of a higher suction cyclone will only buy us an extra 4 inches in which to collect that dust! Even if we use a more liberal FPM and assume that airflow will still move the dust into the hose--let's say half, 25 FPM-- you still only get 14 inches and 20 inches, 6 inches better.

So, it comes down to this: does the HOOD that surrounds your dust generating tool head, and contains/controls the 100MPH dust as it is created, actually stop the dust within 10 inches, or even 14 inches? If the answer is NO, then adding a cyclone that will scrounge dust for an additional 4 inches from your toolhead is meaningless! If the dust is being flung 2 feet from your tool head (mine is!), you'd need a cyclone running 2500 CFM to provide 50 FPM airflow speed to collect that dust at the 2 foot boundary layer!

My point on all this is that increasing CFM is a very expensive way to control dust, which only buys you marginal gains. Reducing the volume/area over which we must collect dust by improving hoods is MUCH more powerful in what it buys us.

I am coming to the opinion that these 450 /900 numbers thrown around for required CFM are arbitrary at best, and do not reflect reality--without hoods to drop the dust speed down and keep it sitting within 10-14 inches of the tool head, changing or improving CFM is essentially meaningless. And unless you are trying to scrub the air pre-filter to increase the longevity and performance of your filter, in preparation for putting the air back into your shop, then a cyclone and it's static pressure hit is meaningless. A simple separator on a DC to ease trash dumping may be as good as a cyclone, for the guy who can exhaust outside and has un-modified tools.

My final answer? I'd rather have a PM2000 style dustboot on my PM66 and an excaliber or sharkguard, than a cyclone. Well... AND a cyclone ;)

[glenn bradley]

Money no object choice would be a cyclone. As to why, you could read for days here as to why ;-) The seperation of large material from fines and the ability to filter to a smaller size due to that seperation are a couple home runs for cyclones. Frequency of cleaning filters and bags is another biggie.

[Steve knight]

as posted it is critical to modify or change the way the dust is captured. most of my machines needed work. but I found more airflow helped out too it made the job easier. the tablesaw was a big one where you really need two 4" hoses going at once for good dc.
a cyclone can have good or bad filtering depending on what media you use. but you can use enough media to not loose much airflow and you can't do that on a single stage. for the most part the filter media on a single stage is not enough and either you have blow through or lose of airflow because of the small bag.
but depending on your woodworking needs you can get away with a single stage dc. if you work with exotics you find it is not enough very fast.

[Jim Becker]

Art, the footprint of the cyclone itself is about 2' square. The filter does not need to be in exactly the same place and is also up off the floor sufficiently that the space under it is quite usable for other things. I happen to have my filter mounted 6' away from the cyclone proper...I keep my utility shop vac parked under it in my DC/Compressor closet when it's not in use. So "in general" I have to stand by my previous statement that a typical cyclone takes up less actual floor space than a typical single stage dust collector.

Now, the particular environment you need to work with will obviously affect your ability to choose one type or another. And there are also variations in various single stage systems, too. The one you have may "fit" where you have it, but an alternative model from a different manufacturer might not.

[Wayne Cannon]

Sold my 2 HP Jet DC-1200 single-stage (essentially identical to Delta's) and installed a 3 HP Oneida Dust Gorilla cyclone.
-- Cyclone uses slightly less floor space (as mentioned, filter is well above the floor and can be placed anywhere).
-- Cyclone is far, far easier to empty and to clean the filter.
-- Cyclone is a better-sealed system from the factory. I have no dust around the cyclone, while there was always a thin layer of dust around bag rim, filter rim, and hoses on the single-stage (additional after-market work eventually sealed all the tiny leaks).
-- Cyclone is far heavier and quite a bit taller; but for that extra height, it has a larger dust bin (55 gal).
-- Single stage DC can be portable.
-- Noise is hard to compare, but my 3 HP cyclone makes only very slightly more noise than my 2 HP single-stage. The air and debris make less noise in the cyclone, possibly due to its heavier walls, but the larger motor makes more noise.
-- Cyclone has better CFM vs static pressure specs, even at same HP. It also has an 8" inlet, compared with the single-stage's 6" inlet for a lower-loss main line.

[Phil Thien]

My final answer? I'd rather have a PM2000 style dustboot on my PM66 and an excaliber or sharkguard, than a cyclone. Well... AND a cyclone ;)

Excellent post, Dave!

[Art Mulder]

Art, the footprint of the cyclone itself is about 2' square. The filter does not need to be in exactly the same place and is also up off the floor sufficiently that the space under it is quite usable for other things. ...

Ahhh, now I understand your reasoning.

What we have here, Jim, is a language/culture barrier... :D I'm looking at this as a basement-shop dude, who has about 7'6". so the filter placement is a concern. You're looking at this as a larger/separate/freestanding shop dude, who has more vertical space available, so the filter placement is not so much an issue.

Or something like that. :rolleyes:

thanks
...art

[Paul Johnstone]

No question, a cyclone is better.

I agree that ceiling height can be a problem with installing one. In my basement shop, I have the top of the Clearvue motor going between joists to make it fit.

I had a basic Delta bag collector before this, with the upgraded fine filtering bags.

There's no question the cyclone does a better job at keeping the air clean. I no longer smell the heavy smell of dust while working. I don't cough after leaving the shop (I'd cough even with a dust mask on the bag collector). There's no longer a layer of dust on everything in the basement that settles from the air.

I agree that if you can vent outside, maybe a cyclone isn't necessary, but I can't vent outside. My neighborhood association would have a cow over that.

If I was advising someone who was starting out on woodworking.. a guy that was planning to go all out with a tablesaw, bandsaw, planer, jointer, etc.. I would tell him to buy his cyclone first then his tablesaw/router table.. I would put off other big tools until I got DC taken care of.

Likewise, I'd highly recommend getting a random orbit sander that can hook to a vaccum and get pretty good dust collection. I used to just sand and let the dust fly everywhere.. As I said, even with a mask, I'd cough a lot.

Learn from the people that got sick from inadequate dust collection. Read Bill Penz's site and do whatever is feasible in your situation. Even if that means putting off buying a bandsaw for a year or two.

[Bart Leetch]

The "footprint" of a cyclone is typically less than any single stage DC.


But I don't have the wall space to hang it on.

[Jim Becker]

Trust me, I understand, Art. Kitchen and the rest of the "old" part of the house has a 6'10" ceiling, (250 years old...) and my previous shop was a one car garage. While it's possible to do a cyclone in your situation, the changes necessary to accomodate it would increase the footprint. (blower separate from the cyclone and an alternative bin design) So for you, the single stage machine is certainly more practical. Put the best filter material on it you can get and use a pre-separator with the "heavy chip" machines and whenever else you can afford to have another can in the chain.

[Jim Becker]

But I don't have the wall space to hang it on.

You can use a free-standing, er...stand. As an example, I think they picture the same in the Grizzly catalog if I recall. It can be made of wood or steel...and the latter can be either welded if you can or just bolted together.

[Jim Andrew]

I already have a 2 hp cyclone, wish it were a 3 hp. Hung mine on outside of shop to cut down on noise. The piping cost more than the cyclone. If I were starting over, would look hard at the Grizzly cyclones, or the Gorilla. Bought mine just before those came out. Not really interested in building my own when you can buy one for 795. Couldn't find the plastic sewer pipe in 6", so went with the spiral. Plastic would have been less, but all I could find was the heavier pipe which was about the same as the spiral. Jim

[Jason Christenson]

I have a 1hp Jet dust collector and a trash can separator. There are a whole lot of things that I would buy before I worry about upgrading dust collection, of course, before I got my current DC I was using a broom and a dustpan.

Jason

[Tim Thomas]

I like being able to take all of my tools outside and work in my large, flat driveway when weather permits, so I would still stick with the single stage Jet DC that I have. It's on wheels, easy to move and keeps me from getting a huge pile of sawdust in my driveway that I have to sweep up.

Of course, I will echo what some others have said, and if I had my dream shop space (instead of my current 2 car garage) then I would probably have a cyclone in it. That dream shop would have to have lots of big windows and/or huge sliding doors to let in lots of light and fresh air though. I really do like working outside whenever possible.

[jason lambert]

Dave I have to also ask myself with the cyclone running isn't it also scrubbing the air it sucks in (acting as a air filter especllay left running). So some may excape but with that much air movement around the shop it has got to have some air scrubbing ability.

[David Freed]

I do not know what size and type of machines you have, but with you describing your situation as a small weekend shop, Clearview's mini-cyclone offers what might be a solution to have a cyclone to fit your budget. If you were to spend the money to get the CV1400 or a competitors similar sized cyclone, you would probably never have to buy another system again, even if your shop would grow larger. If you could manage to buy a full sized cyclone, one option would be to have one flexible hose coming from the cyclone and switch it from one machine to another, until your budget would let you install a permanent system. As far as which brand to choose, I have heard good and bad about Grizzly, mostly good about the rest you mentioned.

Although Clearview advertises their products under the hobbyist title, my situation shows how far you can push their limits. I bought the CV1400 before they began making the CV1800. We started out with a large wooden box under the cyclone, but we were spending 15 - 20 minutes, 3 or 4 times a day emptying the box. I was not happy wasting that much time every day dealing with sawdust, and I was soon going to be getting a 4-head moulder which would add even more volume to deal with. My solution was to get rid of the box, buy a 3hp sawdust blower and hook it to the bottom of the cyclone, and blow it out into a rear used, unloading silage wagon I bought for $500. I have a farmer that will get the wagon and unload it, so I do not have to deal with handling sawdust at all. Using this setup instead of just a big blower blowing directly outside allows me to keep the heated and cooled shop air in the shop.

I am now at the point where I am thinking about a larger cyclone, but the Clearvue has done a very good job for me so far.

[Ted Illi]

First and foremost you should put a price tag on your health. What do you think holds plywood, particleboard and MDF together? Phenolic Resins! The dust from this stuff will flat out kill you. If your lungs are worth say $1000 bucks your choice should be a no brainier!

If not for that reason alone, ask yourself how much time you spend in your shop, and much of that time you want to spend moving and setting up tools? In most home shops setting up a job takes longer than doing the actual job.

Most of the guys I know who say they move their dust collector from machine to machine, don't! Why? Because they frankly admit it's a PITA. They move it only if the job is going to be a large one, and they determine what's large! What invariable happens is the DC usually stays at the planer or jointer (where most waste is produced) and they inhale the dust from the sanders, drill press, chop saw, and other machines. They eventually fill their shops full of dust and revert back to the good old broom and dust pan! Sooner than latter I'll hear the comment "why didn't I buy a cyclone".

FYI. I own a 2HP Oneida and enjoy it ever time I push the remote button hanging from my tool pouch!