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James Wright
04-02-2008, 1:18 PM
My website went "live" a couple of months ago...I am in a constant research mode on how to improve getting my website found...other then coding new meta-tags, adding to a keyword list and doing search engine optimization, one suggestion I keep seeing is to "Exchange Links". Reciprocal linking is a very good way to improve site rankings with search engines. I don't mean exchanging links to 'direct competitors' but if you are doing a similar business in Washington State and I'm in Georgia, I don't really think we will impact our customer base.... exchanging links has proven to increase website visability....so if you think both of us might beneift...go check out my website (which I can mention here) and maybe we can improve our search page rankings...

Thanks for your consideration...

Doug Griffith
04-02-2008, 2:08 PM
Hi James,
I've been developing websites for over 10 years now and cross-linking is VERY important for SEO. I would advise you to add more relative textual content especially on your home page. If you know mod-rewrite and regex, you can convert all of your links to static and then parse into the variables that you use in PHP on the fly. It'll be more spider friendly.

ie.
category 19
viewCat_19.html = index.php?act=viewCat&catId=19

ie.
category 19 / product 30
viewProd_19_30.html = index.php?act=viewProd&productId=30

Cheers

James Wright
04-02-2008, 3:01 PM
Hi James,
I've been developing websites for over 10 years now and cross-linking is VERY important for SEO. I would advise you to add more relative textual content especially on your home page. If you know mod-rewrite and regex, you can convert all of your links to static and then parse into the variables that you use in PHP on the fly. It'll be more spider friendly.

ie.
category 19
viewCat_19.html = index.php?act=viewCat&catId=19

ie.
category 19 / product 30
viewProd_19_30.html = index.php?act=viewProd&productId=30

Cheers

I have read that the search engine spider bots read the text on all your pages to establish where you show up on a search ....and all your descriptions on each of your product pages need to be very keyword orientated...ie if you are trying to attract Baby Boomers...your product description should have the words Baby Boomers in it.....can you verify that....

Angus Hines
04-02-2008, 3:10 PM
I get a MySQL 1040 error"too many connections" when I go there. So somebody must have found it...LOL

Mitchell Andrus
04-02-2008, 3:11 PM
Text is king. Images don't get indexed and text in images is a zero to the 'bots. Be sure to place search-terms in the product captions, alts and in the descriptions. Make a text box at the bottom of the home page and write all about your stuff and fill it with lots of descriptiove text likely to be used as people search for your products. It isn't there for humans to read but it should be people-freindly anyway. Construct the site so search terms are in text format, outside of java and flash... make it easy for the 'bots.

You should be able to grab any five words from your site and get to the top of Google's results.

I grabbed "The disk is titled “Remember Our Wedding Day” and is designed for The Oak Leaf/ Acorn" from your site, put it in quotes and Googled it. It didn't come up - it should have been the only one on the page because it's unique to your site. This means Google isn't interested in your site (yet) or the page and/or text isn't accessible to the 'bots.

Google: "your exact size. Styles include" (from my home page) and ONLY my site comes up. I know I've been nicely indexed.

Google - Mission style inlays - (no quotes) and I come up #1 out of 222,000 results. Again, a good result.

I see you have robots.txt. It's a little tought to follow... make sure it's in proper format.
Make and submit a Google site map. Create a Google account and follow the directions.
See if your host can help you out. A little money now pays off huge as time goes on.
As Doug said, get indexed on other's sites. Not "link farms"... Google ignors those pretty much.

This will take some time.

James Wright
04-02-2008, 3:19 PM
I get a MySQL 1040 error"too many connections" when I go there. So somebody must have found it...LOL

I don't know what is going on with that :mad:.....my server must be down...got to call my webmaster......Murphys Law...might know the minute I bring up go look at my site....guess what...it goes down....

Doug Griffith
04-02-2008, 3:25 PM
The other way around. The description meta which shows up on the search engine results page should match your content and the keywords meta should match content as well. The more instances a particular word is used (in context) the better.

Search engines treat ranking differently. Some use metatags, some don't.

Textual content has weight.

Text near the top of the page (earlier in the source) and larger in size (ie. H1) should have more weight. Text embedded deep in tables at small sizes will have less.

The title has quite a bit of weight.

The URL probably has the most weight. (ie. laserengravedplastic.com)

Everything matching each other has a lot of weight.

Others, If this is too off topic for this forum, let us know. I'm guessing others have websites so the more information the better.

Cheers

Scott Shepherd
04-02-2008, 4:38 PM
I'm no expert and things may have changed, but when I worked with it a couple of years ago, linking was important, but it's not the fact you're linked, it's the popularity of the site you're linked to.

Linking to 10 sites that all get 10 hits per day didn't carry the weight of 1 link that gets 100,000 hits per day. So simply linking to a bunch of smaller site didn't carry much weight. The goal (at that time) was to get your links up on high traffic sites. For instance, if you have your site on Sawmill Creek, then that would help you a great deal. Have it on 10 Sawmill Creek's and you really had some power in the rankings.

That could have all changed, as the search methods are constantly evolving.

One of the other folks can let us know if that still applies.

That being said, every link helps to some degree.

Brad Knight
04-02-2008, 4:54 PM
Google: "your exact size. Styles include" (from my home page) and ONLY my site comes up. I know I've been nicely indexed.



Actually... it's not. This thread comes up as well... :)

Doug Griffith
04-02-2008, 5:29 PM
I'm no expert and things may have changed, but when I worked with it a couple of years ago, linking was important, but it's not the fact you're linked, it's the popularity of the site you're linked to.

Linking to 10 sites that all get 10 hits per day didn't carry the weight of 1 link that gets 100,000 hits per day. So simply linking to a bunch of smaller site didn't carry much weight. The goal (at that time) was to get your links up on high traffic sites. For instance, if you have your site on Sawmill Creek, then that would help you a great deal. Have it on 10 Sawmill Creek's and you really had some power in the rankings.

That could have all changed, as the search methods are constantly evolving.

One of the other folks can let us know if that still applies.

That being said, every link helps to some degree.

I think your still correct. To clarify: Links in matter. Links out don't. The depth of the link within the other site matters as well.

Joe Pelonio
04-02-2008, 7:02 PM
Actually... it's not. This thread comes up as well... :)

I have gotten several jobs lately from people that googled laser related terms, came up with a creek post, saw the city in my sig and then googled my name and found one of my websites.

Another good reason the creek is well worth the $6 contribution. It's so big and popular that the search bots hit it all the time.

Doug Griffith
04-02-2008, 8:16 PM
Hey Mitchell,
whats up with the super-fat __VIEWSTATE value that you pass? That's an awful lot of encrypted data to pass around.

Mitchell Andrus
04-02-2008, 8:23 PM
Hey Mitchell,
whats up with the super-fat __VIEWSTATE value that you pass? That's an awful lot of encrypted data to pass around.


A hot topic on the forum for my website's software co. It's gotten some attention lately. The viewstate can be moved but it causes other problems in other areas of the site. Impatient shoppers clicking too soon can cause a melt-down if you aren't careful and one or two security issues have popped up one a few sites that have tried to fiddle with it. It'll be addressed in the next version next year.

Not perfect by any means.

Mitchell Andrus
04-02-2008, 8:26 PM
Actually... it's not. This thread comes up as well... :)

I tried it... Wow, Google's fast sometimes, huh?

Dan Hintz
04-02-2008, 8:38 PM
Where you link from/to is also a huge part of reciprocal linking. There are plenty of sites out there that do nothing but offer reciprocal links... you're placed on one huge (and growing) page of links. These do nothing for you (and can often hurt your ranking) as Google quickly picks these up and gives negative scores to sites linked on them. I had to fight with one site (threatened to sue) to get my website removed from their link list.

Doug Griffith
04-02-2008, 8:42 PM
Aha!
I think that an encrypted string of 100 or so characters is all that should be needed to protect their software rights. There is enough code there to do something malicious. I would want to know what it decrypts to.

Doug Griffith
04-02-2008, 8:46 PM
Where you link from/to is also a huge part of reciprocal linking. There are plenty of sites out there that do nothing but offer reciprocal links... you're placed on one huge (and growing) page of links. These do nothing for you (and can often hurt your ranking) as Google quickly picks these up and gives negative scores to sites linked on them. I had to fight with one site (threatened to sue) to get my website removed from their link list.

Its called "link farming"

James Wright
04-03-2008, 9:13 AM
[quote=Doug Griffith;819678]Hi James,
I've been developing websites for over 10 years now and cross-linking is VERY important for SEO. I would advise you to add more relative textual content especially on your home page. If you know mod-rewrite and regex, you can convert all of your links to static and then parse into the variables that you use in PHP on the fly. It'll be more spider friendly.

ie.
category 19
viewCat_19.html = index.php?act=viewCat&catId=19

ie.
category 19 / product 30
viewProd_19_30.html = index.php?act=viewProd&productId=30

Doug,

I have been referred to a website that sells SEO software....the site makes some "To Good To Be True" claims....should this be a buyer beware...as in if it is to good to be true it probably isn't....The software is SEOelite for $167.....any experience with SEO software?

James

Mitchell Andrus
04-03-2008, 1:59 PM
Not to shove you off onto others more knowledgeable about SEO... but.....

Have you tried other forums where people are more knowledgeable about SEO?

All of the major ecomm software authors have forums and the most active threads are usually SEO related. www.seochat.com (http://www.seochat.com) is a good site with an active forum.

Greg Cuetara
04-03-2008, 8:25 PM
Please take this for what it is worth. I have a good friend who has his own hobby business and he pays a company to get him into the search engines. What he has told me is that it typically takes 2 to 3 years to get your website up in the rankings. The people who are at the top are there because they have been around. The company he has submits his information when they are supposed to to each of the search engines. He said that if you mess up the protocol with one of the search engines they will black ball you for a certain period of time and that each search engine has their own method and timing to submit information.

I think moreso than anything it is just time and building your site up and getting it linked across the net. Sometimes things are better left to those who know how to do them correctly the first time and everytime.

Good Luck,
Greg

Mitchell Andrus
04-04-2008, 8:44 AM
What he has told me is that it typically takes 2 to 3 years to get your website up in the rankings. Good Luck,
Greg

2 to 3 YEARS???? No. Not even close.

A website host that knows what he's doing will get you placed very nicely with 20-30 of the top search engines in a matter of weeks. I hit Google's and Yahoo's page 1 for 11 of my search terms about a month after launch. Messaging the site and constant SEO submittals ($30.00/mo.) keeps me up in the rankings.

Having said that.... If you need people to find you and you re-sell Disney passes, a very crowded market will require very sharp elbows to get through all of the other Disney references that Google has indexed. The more sites using a term, the more diluted your search results. Time has little to do with it. Hard work does the trick.

Have a look at any site on Google's first page of results. There are clues to their success.

Jon Lanier
04-04-2008, 1:19 PM
I was thinking of doing a website. But now with all that jargon you all are talking over my head. Now I'm a bit scared to try a website. :(

Mitchell Andrus
04-04-2008, 1:28 PM
Doug,

ViewState is mostly a snapshot of every element that can change on the page such as text input fields, color choices radio buttons, etc. and pre-explains this to the visitor's browser. the viewstate can be moved to where ever the webmaster thinks it makes most sense, so during a page load, the viewstate can load first, last or somewhere in the middle. This keeps a visitor from selecting something just as another choice loads preventing an accidental selection when people click too fast, before the page is finished loading.

When you visit a site and you start typing or making choices and then loose your work during the page load, they aren't making good use of a cool tool. The viewstate is created by the software's code-behind automatically, but can be altered if you know how and really, really need to.

Security and authorship have nothing to do with it.

Google "What's viewstate for?".

Mitchell Andrus
04-04-2008, 1:53 PM
Jon,

Jump on in, the water is fine. I've got well over 1,000 hours into mine over a three year period (pictures, choices, pricing, graphics, etc.) Start with two indispensible things: A strong adaptable software package and a site host who knows that software inside out with SEO chops.

If you're going to set up a show and tell site there are plenty of point, click, upload solutions available.

If you're going to set up a cart-site spend a LOT of time finding the one that you'll be able to handle and that will handle your products. Some are as simple as ebay's user interface. Some, like mine, are definately not on the same planet as ebay.

They will all have forums. Sit and read everything and you'll soon be able to exclude the ones you don't want to mess with.

I started with a show and tell site 11 years ago cause I couldn't afford the $20-$30,000.00 that it used to take to get up and running with a shopping cart site. My software (BVCommerse) is a real pain (I'm on the development team now), but at $500.00 plus your development time (layout, graphics, custom coding....) you can make a good looking site that's in there with the best of them. There are many hosts and developers that will start with the basic software package and build your cart site for you. Plan to spend $4,000.00 to $6,000.00 or more.

Give Resposio a look if you're serious. Ask for Brendon or Noah.

Stay away from Store-Front. DAMHIKT

Cliff Rohrabacher
04-04-2008, 4:05 PM
When I had my site I optimized access such that I was Number one on the Google free list when ever any one googled any of the common search terms used to identify my professional sub-specialty.

What I did was add pages and pages of content (legal articles on the industry and the business really) and I got my site searched for over and over and over and over literally hundreds of times every day for a few months each time with the google hyperlink getting clicked a few times.

Google's ranking system gives hefty rewards to sites whose google hyperlinks are clicked most often during searches.

You can do this yourself or have a pack of pals help or purchase the service.

James Wright
04-15-2008, 12:37 PM
E-commerce and web sales is a proven major business revenue generator. Having a laser and trying to do a laser business from a wheelchair, I wanted laser engravers to participate in this discussion about laser
engraving business profits using E-Commerce. I don't feel that this is "Off Topic" at all for the Laser Engravers Forum because most are business professionals trying to make a living as I am and not hobbyists and would be interested in this discussion. Moving it to "Off Topic" moves it to oblivion.

Travis Gauger
04-15-2008, 12:52 PM
So I have a site that has been up for a few months now and still doesn't show up on google. You can even google the exact name of the site and not get it. I do the addwords through google and it will show up on the side bar there sometimes, but it is frustrating when you tell people to go to tgwoodworks.com, people put just that into google, and they can't find my site. Everything you guys are talking about is way, way over my head. Any of you looking for a side job? ;):rolleyes:

So my site is all flash, I think. does that have a bearing on how the spider sees my site?

James Wright
04-15-2008, 1:10 PM
So I have a site that has been up for a few months now and still doesn't show up on google. You can even google the exact name of the site and not get it. I do the addwords through google and it will show up on the side bar there sometimes, but it is frustrating when you tell people to go to tgwoodworks.com, people put just that into google, and they can't find my site. Everything you guys are talking about is way, way over my head. Any of you looking for a side job? ;):rolleyes:

So my site is all flash, I think. does that have a bearing on how the spider sees my site?

What I am reading from those responding to thread....and hearing from my web guy doing my website....TEXT and more TEXT is the key to getting found....my web guy told me to take all Fash off my front page and go to TEXT only....he says search spiders won't or can't look at Flash

Mike Null
04-15-2008, 1:43 PM
James

The topic is a general topic not specific to laser engraving and actually relevant to a lot more than laser engravers. I think it will get more exposure here as the laser engraving forum is somewhat focused. BTW I did not move it here but agree with the mod who did.

To your topic. Like you I make my living as an engraver and the Internet is my exclusive form of advertising.

After several years of a non-productive homemade web site I wised up and went to a pro. What a difference!!!!

Since going to a pro designer I've had increases every month but one for the last 30 months.

My tips---get rid of all the flash stuff. Concentrate on text. And do it throughout your pages. Think about, or ask your customers what search terms they use to find you and incorporate them into your site.

Do not assume because you do engraving that your customers will use the term engraving to find you. They may search for material or item or service etc. You can win by being all-inclusive in your text relevant to the things you offer and do.

I still have a lot of work to do on my site (you can save a lot of money by doing work for your designer) and just haven't taken the time.

Another thing I recommend is to find some sites you really like (not engraving sites) and see who the designer is. Check his portfolio to see if you like other examples of his work and if you do give him a call.

I do not use any PPC or SEO services; just my $11.95 a month Yahoo fee.

Travis Gauger
04-15-2008, 2:51 PM
What I am reading from those responding to thread....and hearing from my web guy doing my website....TEXT and more TEXT is the key to getting found....my web guy told me to take all Fash off my front page and go to TEXT only....he says search spiders won't or can't look at Flash

Thats just great. I went to a pro for my site. Got it and like it a lot. All Flash. Hmm. Thinking about it, I don't think I will change it regardless if it gets me more hits or not. Everyone who ever does find my site tells me how neat it is.

Mitchell Andrus
04-15-2008, 3:41 PM
So I have a site that has been up for a few months now and still doesn't show up on google. You can even google the exact name of the site and not get it. I do the addwords through google and it will show up on the side bar there sometimes, but it is frustrating when you tell people to go to tgwoodworks.com, people put just that into google, and they can't find my site. Everything you guys are talking about is way, way over my head. Any of you looking for a side job? ;):rolleyes:

So my site is all flash, I think. does that have a bearing on how the spider sees my site?

I had a quick look at your site's source. The site's nicely done, but it is not in any way Google-friendly.

Travis Gauger
04-16-2008, 10:29 AM
So I put some meta tags on the home page. Will this help Google "see" my page?

Doug Griffith
04-16-2008, 10:36 AM
From a developer's point of view:
Serious programming and fully dynamic (as in content generation) websites are usually taken for granted by both visitors and developer clients. It's things like spinning text and Flash that gets "Now that's really cool". The cool stuff, if done esthetically, can instill confidence in the website and may generate sales but it's not search engine friendly. If nobody finds the website in the first place because the "cool stuff" overides the function then all is moot. Unless you sell Flash services, multimedia, animation or the like, a good pro website is not all Flash. It may contain Flash components though. If Flash was the way to go, all the big players would be using it. Adobe who owns Flash doesn't even have an all Flash area for where Flash is sold. Hmmm.

What I'm getting at is search engine optimization (SEO) can help get people to your website and Flash may instill confidence IF they ever find you.

Also, a real pro web developer should consult with their client to determine their needs. A lot of web developers get caught up in the design aspect (and sometimes their ego) and present to their client what they think looks cool. For this audience (Sawmill), they should focus on generating sales, marketing tools, and and SEO.

SEO tip: embedded image names (ie. laser-cut-ornament.jpg) that match page content and url are better than names such as sku123.jpg. The ALT tag for this would be "laser cut ornament".

Just my 2 cents,
Doug

Doug Griffith
04-16-2008, 10:41 AM
So I put some meta tags on the home page. Will this help Google "see" my page?

It should if relevant the content of the page. From my understanding, meta tags do not have much ranking value though. They are too easy to cheat with.

Cheers

Mitchell Andrus
04-16-2008, 2:22 PM
Context-centric content is seen by Google (rather, the humans who write the search-bot programs) as being the best indicator of what's to be found on a page.

Loading "Diapers, diapers, diapers" into the metas of a site that sells baby products is frowned upon and can get you penalized. They know this trick and largely discount metas as a reliable indicator of the site's content. The famous example is a sports goods retailer with the word "sex" in multiples in the meta and in white font 1,000's of times in the background.

It's much better to show a picture as an active link to a product, caption it with an active link to the product, and a product page with relevant text and captions. Google 'bots are smart enough to follow entrance page links to see where they lead to and decide if the content on the page is relevant to the link trail. 'bots really do go through sites much the same way humans do.

I got a call (and an order) from a fellow who was looking for "unfinished medicine cabinets". My site didn't come up until he searched for "naked medicine cabinets" - Naked is one of the finish choices I offer. Yes, it gets that fussy sometimes. You can bet I'm going to place "unfinished" and "unfinished furniture" in the text soon.

I get a list of ALL words and phrases that are used in order to get a shopper to my site, the text comes with you as you shop... we see this stuff. So, I can see what terms work and which terms on my site are never used to find me. Tweaking, all the time.

Travis Gauger
04-16-2008, 3:23 PM
I really don't care if my site comes up when someone searches for "Furniture". I have ad words for that. I do care if my site comes up when you search for "my site." Right now when I tell people to go to my site and I hand them a business card, they go home and pull google up. They type in tgwoodworks.com and their results don't have a link to my site. They think that they were talking to some crack and go on with life. I just want when someone types in the name of my site that they can get there. This seems to me to be fairly easy to make happen, right now if you do the search you can find all sorts of pages that I have mentioned my site by name on. You just can't find my actual site. Will the meta tags fix this? I hope that I am not being overly difficult about this. If I am someone can tell me to knock it off at anytime and I will. I may just be more dense on this than normal. :o

Mitchell Andrus
04-16-2008, 4:32 PM
Travis,

Have you submitted your site to Google and Yahoo, etc.? This is not the same as adwords.

http://www.google.com/addurl/?continue=/addurl

Also, create a Google site map of your site and submit that too (via your Google account). The map is a text file that goes in your site's root dir. You then tell Google what it's name is. Google finds these very helpful when crawling a site and you'll be rewarded.

The more hoops you jump through, the more seriously Google takes your efforts to move up on the results page. Simple as that.

More info:

http://www.google.com/webmasters/

I'll bet if you took the money you spend on adwords and spent it instead on website SEO modifications and regular submittals, you'd get more hits AND save money. I cut my adwords budget to zero. My SEO budget is 20% of what I used to spend and boosted my ranking to boot.

Some SEO help will go a long way. Search for "SEO" and call a few if you're serious.

Doug Griffith
04-16-2008, 9:44 PM
I really don't care if my site comes up when someone searches for "Furniture". I have ad words for that. I do care if my site comes up when you search for "my site." Right now when I tell people to go to my site and I hand them a business card, they go home and pull google up. They type in tgwoodworks.com and their results don't have a link to my site. They think that they were talking to some crack and go on with life. I just want when someone types in the name of my site that they can get there. This seems to me to be fairly easy to make happen, right now if you do the search you can find all sorts of pages that I have mentioned my site by name on. You just can't find my actual site. Will the meta tags fix this? I hope that I am not being overly difficult about this. If I am someone can tell me to knock it off at anytime and I will. I may just be more dense on this than normal. :o

You should at least move your meta tags to within the head. Also check your robots.txt if you have one. It could also be that search engines find nothing on your home page except an empty table with a script which they ignore. You could remove the upper logo area of your .swf and create that portion with good old HTML and CSS. It won't look exactly the same but may be worth it.

Cheers

Travis Gauger
04-17-2008, 11:19 AM
Mitchell and Doug,
Thanks so much for all the info. I moved the meta stuff to between the head labels in the HTML file. Hopefully that helps. I also submitted my site as well as a site map. I just moved the meta tags into the head labels today. Hopefully it helps. I did the url and site map submital a while back.
I think that I am with you guys on the SEO stuff. Problem is that right now the only way anyone can find my site is via the adwords. So until I can get into search results I think I am going to maintain the adwords and then also start searching for some SEO stuff too.
I really appreciate all your guys help on this. I am real good in the shop and not so good behind one of these things. I bought this site about 2 years ago, went live online only a few months ago though. Been a huge learning experience and and an enormous consumer of time.

Mitchell Andrus
04-17-2008, 12:27 PM
Been a huge learning experience and and an enormous consumer of time.

Grasshopper, wait til you set up a complicated shopping cart site.

Doug Griffith
04-20-2008, 11:10 AM
Doug,

I have been referred to a website that sells SEO software....the site makes some "To Good To Be True" claims....should this be a buyer beware...as in if it is to good to be true it probably isn't....The software is SEOelite for $167.....any experience with SEO software?

James

It's most likely too good to be true. Your biggest bang would be submitting your site to Google and a few other top engines yourself. Plus it's free.

Dylan Smith
04-20-2008, 3:16 PM
So I have a site that has been up for a few months now and still doesn't show up on google. You can even google the exact name of the site and not get it. I do the addwords through google and it will show up on the side bar there sometimes, but it is frustrating when you tell people to go to tgwoodworks.com, people put just that into google, and they can't find my site. Everything you guys are talking about is way, way over my head. Any of you looking for a side job? ;):rolleyes:

So my site is all flash, I think. does that have a bearing on how the spider sees my site?

All Flash = No content.

Spiders don't read pictures. Flash is nothing but a picture; it might be a picture of text, but it's a picture nonetheless.

If you want hits, add some (text) content. The more the better.

Flash is an SEO and accessibility killer, and should never be used for any important content. You can jazz things up with a bit of it here and there, but there's usually a more standard-friendly method of doing what you'd use Flash to do, anyway.

Your site is all Flash, laid out with a (useless) table, and includes tags that have been deprecated for nearly a decade (font, etc).

Use some good, semantic, HTML and reference an external CSS file for layout and presentation, and Google will love you.

Throw Flash inside a circa-96 table and you won't get linked to.

David Freed
05-04-2008, 4:55 PM
I have read through all of the replies in this thread and still have a queston. I have tried a few different types of advertising on a tight budget with basically no results. I was getting ready to try the pay per click route, but now I am not sure. The way ppc was explained to me, your ad is placed where people that are searching for the type of merchandise you sell can see it and therefore click on your ad to go to your website. I realize there will be a lot of people just browsing, but I thought targeted advertising to bring people to your website would be what you want. Is ppc cost effective or am i just wasting more money?

I am in the process of redesigning my website. It doesn't have many pictures, but I didn't think it looked all that bad. Right now I can't afford to pay an expensive designer to make a website that I probably wouldn't like anyway. I am not interested in flashy design. I just want people to see what I have to sell.

Dylan Smith
05-05-2008, 1:02 AM
I am in the process of redesigning my website. It doesn't have many pictures, but I didn't think it looked all that bad. Right now I can't afford to pay an expensive designer to make a website that I probably wouldn't like anyway. I am not interested in flashy design. I just want people to see what I have to sell.

Producing a website is about far more than a flashy design; a proper understanding of structure, semantic use of html, etc, will go a long way to increasing your SEO and thus your traffic.

'Looks' are the last thing I worry about when I'm working on a site.

Content and structure are what provide meaning to search engines. A bit of professional polish will certainly pay dividends once customers get to your site, but getting them there in the first place is more than half the battle....

David Freed
05-05-2008, 6:32 AM
Dylan,
I understand what you are saying, but after reading through all the replies to this thread it sounds to me like it is very expensive (if you pay someone else) or you have to know the html part yourself (I don't) to get and keep your website somewhere above page 200 (or maybe 2000, I don't know where mine is). That is one reason why I was thinking about trying the ppc ads. If I could just get some payingcustomers, maybe I could pay someone to make my site more search engine friendly. As I said before I am on a really tight budget right now, because of some unexpected major expenses.

Mitchell Andrus
05-05-2008, 8:02 AM
David,

I went the ppc route a few years ago. Back when I had a cheapie show-and-tell site I spent between $300.00 and $600.00 a month (up to $20.00/day) on ppc for about 8 months just to see if I could do it without a 'pro' site. Waste of money - sales increased, but I didn't see an increase in sales in scale with the add'l marketing costs. Once I set up a cart site and got noticed by the search engines the right way (free), I dropped the ppc. My site costs were about $1,700.00 (base package and a designer for a few hours) plus my time in loading images/products, creating text, creating the look and feel..... I've got about 300 hours in my site to date and it's very SEO friendly.

Google mission style medicine cabinets .. missionfurnishings comes up #1. Likewise with craftsman style mirrors.

Ad-wise, look into a spot ad in FWW and Wood magazine if you're serious. Same per day cost, more targetted audience.

Go to the local college and see if you can get a smart kid to do a site up for you. There are plenty of templates available that your pretty much plug your text and images into. A little tweaking and your done.

Google "SEO".

David Freed
05-05-2008, 8:21 AM
This is beginning to sound like a big catch 22. I have to spend a lot of money to get customers, but I don't have a lot of money because I don't have customers.

Andy Hoyt
05-05-2008, 8:35 AM
David - I realize you're low on funds - aint we all.

How much would you be willing to spend toward getting your site spiffied up; in terms of a one time fee and ongoing, that is.

David Freed
05-05-2008, 10:54 AM
Andy,
Sorry for the slow reply. Basically, I can't afford a one time fee. That is one of the reasons I made it myself. I was going to spend $100/mo on some kind of advertising, but I can't do that forever if it doesn't get any results.

As a little background on me, I started my business selling lumber and cabinet parts to some of the 60+ shops near me. Most of my orders was from repeat customers. We were busy, but not making any money. I changed directions and started making flooring, so even though I've been in business for a while, it's like starting over.

Mitchell Andrus
05-05-2008, 1:51 PM
I've been doing this for 12 years - every day is a new strart. Some of the best selling products from 12 years ago don't sell anymore. Some aren't worth making, and some are still top sellers.

New products 'hit' at about a 20% rate. For every 5 new products, 1 sells well enough to make offering the other 4 duds worth while.

Diversify - now. There's a fellow nearby with 5 employees who started out a few years ago by buying factory overruns and seconds for 15 cents on the dollar and selling for 75 cents on the dollar. He doesn't have time for seconds anymore. The professional level of the service he provided allowed him to cultivate a very wide client base.

Richard Venturelli
05-10-2008, 1:24 PM
My site ranks high on Yahoo, 5 down on first page using my business name. On Google it ranks very low, If I use description of my service and location it ranks 3 on Yahoo but low again on Google.

I have submitted using the standard methods to both. Why the difference?
Just how many folks really use Search Engines anyway.

My business is local and most of my business comes from referral.

Mitchell Andrus
05-10-2008, 3:55 PM
Just how many folks really use Search Engines anyway. My business is local and most of my business comes from referral.

...depends. I save a TON of money in advertising costs. Every sale that comes from a search is a sale I didn't advertize for in print. - though, print ads drive buyers to the site, too.

Nobody would come from CA to NJ just to see my stuff, but they will put in a bunch of terms until they find what they want, whether made by me or not. So it is in my best interests to make my site SEO friendlier than the other guy's.

Richard Venturelli
05-10-2008, 4:06 PM
...depends. I save a TON of money in advertising costs. Every sale that comes from a search is a sale I didn't advertize for in print. - though, print ads drive buyers to the site, too.

Nobody would come from CA to NJ just to see my stuff, but they will put in a bunch of terms until they find what they want, whether made by me or not. So it is in my best interests to make my site SEO friendlier than the other guy's.

Very true. But my business is local and subject only to locals. Seems I use my site mostly to steer customers to see what I can do and testimonials after they have already contacted me. Not sure it's worth much more than that. Am I wrong?

Keith Outten
05-10-2008, 4:48 PM
The World Wide Web can be a great resource for most people but there are those like myself that it just isn't worth any effort or expense. All my sign work is local, I don't look for, nor do I want, any work outside of my local area. My web page (one lonely page) has very little information on it, it exists only because I am expected to have an email address with my own domain.

The idea that everyone must have a web site just isn't true.

I used to be in the web hosting business and I helped a lot of companies get their web presence established. I watched many of them experience a massive increase in business and there were a few that it just didn't have any impact. The type of service or products you provide is the determining factor whether you will do well advertising on the Internet.

Promoting your web site, should you decide you need a web presence, is a must. Be carefull, there are more scams promoting web sites than any other I know of these days.

.

Tim Bateson
09-14-2011, 4:37 PM
I re-opened an old thread because of the same topic, new issue:
I've done the SEO stuff & when Google was using Norton to rate sites I was Green - meaning Safe & Approved. Now they Have Red, Yellow, Green Checks and my site pages show as yellow. How/What do I need to do to change this??? I've searched Google and came up empty.

Scott Shepherd
09-14-2011, 5:59 PM
Tim, what do you mean when you say "When Google was using Norton"? I've never seen that. I have seen many third party plug-ins for browsers that will show colors, like WOT (Web of Trust), etc. I assume you mean Norton had their own "security suite" part that shows colors when you went to Google?

If so, you'll have to go to whoever's plug-in you are using and see how to resolve it. For WOT users, there are specific requirements on their site that you need to meet in order to get the green light from them. I assume Norton or whoever else has the same thing. One thing I remember, off the top of my head, is that WOT required a published privacy policy. I don't know too many small businesses with websites that even think about stuff like that. But, you want a green light from them when searching, you need to do it. So I'm not sure which plug-in you're using, but I'd say you need to start with them.

Unless Google has done something I missed and added their own ratings.

Dan Hintz
09-14-2011, 7:51 PM
The different colors (I believe) refer to the danger level of your site... not from an active problem, but from potential issues. For example, if you have flash ads that link to outside servers, that's a potential location for viruses. So you get downgraded to yellow.

Bill Cunningham
09-15-2011, 8:50 PM
My website has been active for a little over 13 years now, I'm constantly told by customers they found me on Google because I was constantly at the top of every page, for what ever related search term they used. I have never actively submitted anything to a search engine, the bots seemed to do all the work.. My only advertising is my website. About 2% of my customers walk through the front door of my shop, all the rest come through the website. Darn good job too, or I would never get anything done.

Harry Hagan
09-16-2011, 9:55 AM
Tim,

Your site is listed as OK when I Google it. :)

Bill Edwards(2)
09-16-2011, 11:38 AM
If you want to learn about making Google happy (being found)... Ask Google.

They have tons of free tools and information.

BTW TGWoodWorks.... in your Title you should make that TGWoodWorks.com

Jim Foster
09-17-2011, 10:29 AM
A couple suggestions (I did not read through all the threads on this post, so it may be redundant)

Book "Search Engine Optimization for Dummies" is a good start. Also, get Google Analytics hooked up to your site if you have not done so, it's free and gives you the type of data you should be monitoring. You might also sign up for newsletters form HubSpot, their service may be more than you want to spend, but once your on their list, the send a lot of educational white papers out that might help you get ideas on what you can afford to try