TS3660 Fence Problem

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Hey everyone!

I purchased a TS3660 a couple weeks ago and spent some time with a dial indicator and PALS getting the blade aligned to the miter slots. I then aligned the fence to the blade.

Well... I'm still seeing bad burning and the wood appears to be hitting the teeth at the back of the blade.

I double checked the blade to miter slot alignment and it's spot on.

I then checked the fence and it looked good until I moved it to the other side of the blade and rechecked. It was off by over 0.02".

The weird thing is that the measurements are consistent. By that I mean the measurement is the same every time I check the fence when it's next to the right hand miter slot. And it's the same every time I check it next to the left hand miter slot. In other words, the measurements at different fence locations are different from each other, but always the same at same fence location. I hope that makes sense.

So I'm thinking maybe my rails are bent, causing the fence squareness to vary over the length of the rails.

When I installed the fence rails, I didn't think I needed to install any shims, as there didn't appear to be any gaps. But I'm starting to think this is the root of the problem.

So before I go messing with the fence rails, I thought I'd see if anyone has any other advice.

Thanks!

Paul

[Vic Damone]

Have you tried loosening the front rail fasteners then retightening them hand tight to sort of unload the rail and take another set of measurements?

Is the fence .002 away from or closer to the blade when measuring between a selected tooth at the rear of the saw to the rip fence positioned on the right side of the blade?

Vic

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Have you tried loosening the front rail fasteners then retightening them hand tight to sort of unload the rail and take another set of measurements?

No. But that's not a bad idea! :D I'll have to get back to you with the results.


Is the fence .002 away from or closer to the blade when measuring between a selected tooth at the rear of the saw to the rip fence positioned on the right side of the blade?

Vic

Begin Edit...

With the fence to the right of the blade, but closer to the blade than when it was initially adjusted for parallel, the back of the fence is closer to the back of the blade. I don't know by how much... I haven't checked that measurement yet.

If I move the fence to the left of the blade, the measurement is off by over 0.020" (not 0.002"), but I can't remember if it's farther away or closer (I think it's farther). I'll have to check.

...End Edit

Thanks!

Paul

[J. Z. Guest]

Hi Paul,

I believe I have the same fence on my TS2400. When you say you're getting burning, is this with the splitter installed or off?

Whenever I get burning on mine, it turns out to be caused by one of two things:

1) The splitter is no longer in line with the blade. For some reason, every time I take off the splitter to do dadoes and reinstall it, it isn't the way it was last time. When I loosen the bolts and re-align the splitter it is fixed.

OR

2) There's pitch on the sides of the teeth.

Now, by your measurements, it sounds like maybe the fence may not be a uniform thickness, so that when it's lined up on one side, it isn't lined up on the other. Measure the thickness of your fence.

Did you compare the rails against a straightedge?

If you can't figure it out, line it up so that it is parallel to the blade & miter slots when it is on the right of the blade. This is where you'll do most of your ripping, since that's where the bigger capacity is.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Hi Paul,

I believe I have the same fence on my TS2400. When you say you're getting burning, is this with the splitter installed or off?

I took the splitter off because the stock was hitting it after going through the blade. As soon as I get this fence problem taken care of I'm going to put it back on and get it aligned properly.


Whenever I get burning on mine, it turns out to be caused by one of two things:

1) The splitter is no longer in line with the blade. For some reason, every time I take off the splitter to do dadoes and reinstall it, it isn't the way it was last time. When I loosen the bolts and re-align the splitter it is fixed.

OR

2) There's pitch on the sides of the teeth.

It's a new blade, and doesn't appear to have any accumulated pitch.


Now, by your measurements, it sounds like maybe the fence may not be a uniform thickness, so that when it's lined up on one side, it isn't lined up on the other. Measure the thickness of your fence.

Hmm. That's interesting. I'll check that and get back with you.


Did you compare the rails against a straightedge?

I did, but the only straightedge I own is a 4' Johnson, and I don't think it's very straight. I did, however, find the straightedge touched each end of the rail (well, as far to the right as the straightedge would reach) and left a small gap near the center near the miter slots.


If you can't figure it out, line it up so that it is parallel to the blade & miter slots when it is on the right of the blade. This is where you'll do most of your ripping, since that's where the bigger capacity is.

I sort of already did that. But I had the fence to the right of the right hand miter slot with the dial indicator in the right hand miter slot. That left the fence about 6" away (I think).

If I move the fence closer to the blade, but still to the right of the blade, I get burning at the back of the blade.

...

The more I think about it, the more I think I know what's going on. But then again, I could be completely off base. :) I think I'm going to buy a decent straightedge and confirm my hypothesis.

I think the fence needs to be shimmed in the middle, as it appears to curve inward.

With the fence to the right of the center of the curve and adjusted parallel with the miter guage, it's actually cocked to the left a bit in relation to the part of the fence that rides in the rail. (the following image is exaggerated for clarity)

85576

If I move the fence towards the blade, while remaining to the right of the blade, the back of the fence gets closer to the back of the blade, which is causing the burning on the right rear of the blade. (the following image is exaggerated for clarity)

85577

If I move the fence away from the blade, while remaining to the right of the blade, the back of the fence gets farther from the back of the blade, which is causing the burning on the left rear of the blade (on the off cut).

I haven't cut anything with the fence to the left of the blade, but I have taken measurements. With the fence over there, it appears as though the back of the fence is farther away from the back of the blade (If I remember correctly. I'll have to recheck that to be sure). That would make sense if the fence, at that position, is to the left of the center of the curve in the front rail, which I think it is.

I've been wanting a quality straightedge for a while. I guess it's time to pony up. :D I'll be able to verify the straightness of the rails and shim appropriately where needed (if needed).

Paul

[J. Z. Guest]

If it turns out that your fence is bent inward at the middle, you may not need shims. It may just be over-tightened at that point.

A very slight bend in the front rail will translate to a much bigger error in the fence at the other end.

You could try loosening the middle bolts and tightening the outer bolts a bit first, since it is likely to be such a small difference.

Another way to measure this would be to measure the distance from a blade tip (from both the front & rear of the blade) to the fence, with the blade raised all the way, with the fence at different distances from the blade.

If you measure that distance at one fence position and find that it is parallel, then find that moving the fence to a different position (measuring from that same side of the blade) brings it out of parallel, it seems to indicate a slightly bent rail. Shimming it should work, but they are going to be some very thin shims.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Just a couple of updates...

I checked the thickness of the fence using calipers. It's exactly 2.001" thick along its entire length.

I also checked the fence to the left of the blade. At the rear of the fence, it's 0.028" farther from the blade.

Tonight, I'll check to see if loosening the middle bolts help.



Another way to measure this would be to measure the distance from a blade tip (from both the front & rear of the blade) to the fence, with the blade raised all the way, with the fence at different distances from the blade.

If you measure that distance at one fence position and find that it is parallel, then find that moving the fence to a different position (measuring from that same side of the blade) brings it out of parallel, it seems to indicate a slightly bent rail. Shimming it should work, but they are going to be some very thin shims.

That's exactly what's happening. :D I've just been measuring from the miter slot rather than the blade teeth. The blade is within 0.001" of parallel to the miter slots (gotta love those PALS).

I'll post another update tonight.

Paul

[Luis Oliveira]

Paul your picture basically tells you that the end of your fence is inward and it should be outwards by .002 to .004, look inside the nanual and you will see a section on aligning the fence. Oh I forgot I have the TS3650.

Also to make sure I say it right. if you align the blade using the left mitter, then you also need to align the fence using the left mitter, the reading should be the same from front of the fence to the back but as you get closer to the back the fence should be opining towards the right at about .003.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Paul your picture basically tells you that the end of your fence is inward and it should be outwards by .002 to .004, look inside the nanual and you will see a section on aligning the fence. Oh I forgot I have the TS3650.

Also to make sure I say it right. if you align the blade using the left mitter, then you also need to align the fence using the left mitter, the reading should be the same from front of the fence to the back but as you get closer to the back the fence should be opining towards the right at about .003.

Luis, I'm afraid it's more complicated than that. If I align the fence in one spot, its out of alignment at another spot.

Paul

[Vic Damone]

Paul, Just to be clear, your fence is fine but the main (front) fence rail may not be straight?

Purchase a good 4' scale or I-beam level and align the edges of the saws wings as well as their surfaces with the main table. Check the main rail for straightness before installing to the table and wings. Do not over tighten the rail bolts.

Since the TS 3660's packaging is new the fence rail may now be more susceptible to damage during it's handling.

Vic

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Okay, I just got done rechecking everything.

1) The arbor has far less than 0.001" runout near the arbor flange. The indicator barely moves at all.
2) The arbor flange has far less than 0.001" runout at the outer edge of the flange. The indicator barely moves at all.
3) The blade itself has far less than 0.001" runout near the arbor flange. The indicator barely moves at all.
4) The blade is aligned to the miter slot to within slightly less than 0.001". I'm not about to touch the trunnion again. :D Less than 0.001" is better than I could have hoped for, especially at the outer edge of the blade.
5) The fence is absolutely straight along its entire length to within 0.001". (there's a small hump of less than 0.001")
4) The fence is exactly the same thickness (2.001") along its entire length.

It's pretty obvious none of that's causing a problem. ;)


Paul, Just to be clear, your fence is fine but the main (front) fence rail may not be straight?

That's exactly right.

After rechecking, I found the fence is only parallel to the blade at the single point I set it parallel to the blade. The fence goes out of parallel when I move it from that single point.

So, it's absolutely the front fence rail that is causing this problem.


Purchase a good 4' scale or I-beam level and align the edges of the saws wings as well as their surfaces with the main table. Check the main rail for straightness before installing to the table and wings. Do not over tighten the rail bolts.

It's funny you should bring that up. :D I aligned the front edge of each wing to the main top by feel and by eye. I suppose I should have used a good square or straightedge.

I have a pretty good engineer's square and I just ordered a good straightedge from Lee Valley, so I should be able to get it right this time.


Since the TS 3660's packaging is new the fence rail may now be more susceptible to damage during it's handling.

Vic

I think it's probably more user error than packaging problem. LOL

Oh, and I have brass shim stock that's 0.001" thick should I need it.

Give me a few days to receive my new straight edge and I'll report back.

Paul

[Vic Damone]

Paul, if it turns out to be the front rail go back to the BORG during regular business hours with your receipt and speak to the store manager. Explain to him that the rail is damaged but you'll need to use it until the replacement arrives.

I'm sure you could deal with the damaged rail but you paid for a working tool.

Jezz, how much did you spend at Lee Valley? One of those expensive steel straight edges? I'm sorry, I meant like a $10 rule.

Good luck with it.
Vic

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Paul, if it turns out to be the front rail go back to the BORG during regular business hours with your receipt and speak to the store manager. Explain to him that the rail is damaged but you'll need to use it until the replacement arrives.

I'm sure you could deal with the damaged rail but you paid for a working tool.

Jezz, how much did you spend at Lee Valley? One of those expensive steel straight edges? I'm sorry, I meant like a $10 rule.

Good luck with it.
Vic

I won't know if the rail is damaged until I remove it, but I honestly don't believe it's messed up. Since it's made out of aluminum, it flexes pretty easily, and I think that's what causing the "curve."

If it turns out the rail is damaged, I'll just call RIDGID and have them send me another one. I've had good experience with their support.

Oh, and I only spent $72 for their 50" aluminum straightedge that's machined flat to within 0.003" over the entire length. I could have gone with the 36" steel straightedge that's machined flat to within 0.0015" over the entire length for $66. I think both are really good deals.

Paul

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Well... I had busy weekend and didn't have much time to play with the saw. But I did manage to find a few minutes this morning and again this evening.

I loosened the middle bolts a bit, just so they were finger tight. That helped a little, but the problem remained.

I took the whole front rail off and checked it. It's pretty straight, but sort of flares out away from the table at the right side.

And finally, there's a 3 1/2" long hump on the front edge of the right table extension adjacent to the edge that attaches to the main table.

At this point, I think the hump on the edge of the extension may be the root of my problems. I think it may have caused the rail to develop the inward bow near the center of the saw as well as the outward flair on its right side.

I'm going to call RIDGID tomorrow and see if I can get a replacement table extension and front rail.

Paul

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Just to wrap this up for posterity...

I called RIDGID on the 7th and told them what was going on. They agreed to send a replacement extension wing for the right side and a new front fence rail.

I received them today and installed them ensuring everything was adjusted just right.

And the problem is now fixed.

It turns out I had two problems. 1) The hump in the front edge of the extension wing was pulling the fence rail into a curve. 2) The fence rail itself was curved outward at the far right end.

So replacing either one or the other would not have fixed the problem. Replacing them both, however, did.

There was one other indication of a problem that I didn't even realize I had until everything was put back together. And that was the fact that the stabilizer bar that fits between the front and back fence rails could move nearly 1/4" back and forth between the two rails. Now that everything is fixed, it's tight without any wiggle room.

So there you have it folks.

Paul

[Pavlos Honderich]

How did the exchange work with Ridgid? Do you have to return the parts to your local HD? I'd hope you didn't have to ship them back on your dime. Those wings aren't cheap.

BTW I read a post on the Ridgid forums of a guy saying his fence had a 26/1000 of an inch difference in width from top to bottom. Do you see this on your saw? He took his back and got a Delta at Lowes. IMHO a bit excessive considering...

[Paul Fitzgerald]

How did the exchange work with Ridgid? Do you have to return the parts to your local HD? I'd hope you didn't have to ship them back on your dime. Those wings aren't cheap.

I called RIDGID and told them what I needed and they shipped them to me. I didn't have to deal with Home Depot at all, nor did I have to ship anything back to RIDGID.


BTW I read a post on the Ridgid forums of a guy saying his fence had a 26/1000 of an inch difference in width from top to bottom. Do you see this on your saw? He took his back and got a Delta at Lowes. IMHO a bit excessive considering...

Now that you mention it... the top of the fence is about 0.02" wider than the bottom of the fence. And it's consistent throughout the length of the fence.

Paul