Melamine Cabs joinery

[Craig D Peltier]

Does dadoes and rabbetts work with glue and nails to build lower built in cabinet units with ? The boxes will have face frames and are only 24 inch wide.
Im just not sure of what kind of joinery suffices for melamine. Melamine will be 3/4 inch. I have found sheets for $10 at a warehouse whos dumping them. They also have 1 inch...Way too thick an heavy.

Thanks

[Jim Becker]

You can use that technique but need to source the correct glue...I believe it's called Roo-Glue and will stick to the melemine coating. Alternatively, you could use Confirmat screws and butt joints.

Nice find on the material!

[Jamie Buxton]

If you rabbet the side walls, you'll have wood-to-wood glue joints. In that case, Roo glue is not necessary. Roo is intended to make glue joints to the melamine surface. In wood-to-wood joints, it is not as strong as good ol' PVA.

The particle board inside of melamine board doesn't glue well. Or maybe I should say the particles inside the particle board rip apart easily. You can make a good glue bond on the face of particle board, but the overall connection will be weak because the particle board fails at the stress point. I really like Confirmat screws for melamine board. McFeeleys and Woodcraft sell them. You need to get the stepped drill with them to make the hole they need.

[David DeCristoforo]

In my shop a rabbet and groove joint was used. I say "was" because I swore off melamine many years ago. But the rabbet and groove worked very well. It was glued and then fastened with staples to eliminate clamping and speed assembly. I never worried about the staples because our cabinets always had applied finished ends so the melamine end was always covered. The nice thing about the rabbet and groove (aside from the ease of milling) is the elimination of "cold" but joints on the cabinet interiors and the worry about needing "clean" end cuts.

YM

[Craig D Peltier]

In my shop a rabbet and groove joint was used. I say "was" because I swore off melamine many years ago. But the rabbet and groove worked very well. It was glued and then fastened with staples to eliminate clamping and speed assembly. I never worried about the staples because our cabinets always had applied finished ends so the melamine end was always covered. The nice thing about the rabbet and groove (aside from the ease of milling) is the elimination of "cold" but joints on the cabinet interiors and the worry about needing "clean" end cuts.

YM

Did you worry about glue type?

[David DeCristoforo]

"Did you worry about glue type?"

Used Titebond. The rabbet and groove has a lot of "wood on wood" contact area and with the staples, the cabinet cases were impossible to take apart without destroying the material.

YM

[Matt Meiser]

I've used butt joints and Confirmat screws without glue with good success. An alignment aid (dowels, biscuits, Dominos) makes assembly much easier based on my recent experience building 2 cabinets without and 1 with.

I probably won't use it again though as it is hard not to get a few chips even with good tools/blades, if you do get a good cut, the edges are razor blade sharp (red blood shows up great on white melamine BTW,) and you are bound to chip something handling the parts after the fact--probably when you drop a part because you cut your fingers on the stuff.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...the edges are razor blade sharp (red blood shows up great on white melamine..."

Ain't that the truth! And how about the "raw" edges with those little razor-like bits of the melamine coating hanging over the PB? Nasty!

YM

[Craig D Peltier]

"Did you worry about glue type?"

Used Titebond. The rabbet and groove has a lot of "wood on wood" contact area and with the staples, the cabinet cases were impossible to take apart without destroying the material.

YM

You use the term "rabbett an groove" The groove part is A.K.A. Dadoe right?

[David DeCristoforo]

Not a dado... a groove...like so:

85494

YM

[Craig D Peltier]

Thats why i asked.I thought you might of meant something different.
Thanks

[Richard McComas]

You guys are making this way to complicated. As Matt M said, butt joint and confirmat screws and no glue. I've use this method for over 20 years on a number of kitchens and shop cabinets. Works very well. This type of box constructing also passes the AWI quality requirements.

Go over to the wood web and do a search on "case construction"

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

In my shop a rabbet and groove joint was used. I say "was" because I swore off melamine many years ago.

Me too I hate the stuff. I like it for jigs that I consider "disposable" but other than that yech.

[Joe Chritz]

Zip'r (assembly) screws through the sides will make a box strong enough that you will destroy the material to break it apart.

Glue isn't really necessary but it is easy enough that I would still use some if I had it on hand. I did a lower cab for the laundry room out of scrap melamine and just used the assembly screws.

Melamine has its advantages, ease of working isn't one of them. Thats why shops that use it a lot spend big bucks on special saws with scoring blades or farm it out to a cnc.

Joe

[Richard McComas]

Zip'r (assembly) screws through the sides will make a box strong enough that you will destroy the material to break it apart.

Glue isn't really necessary but it is easy enough that I would still use some if I had it on hand. I did a lower cab for the laundry room out of scrap melamine and just used the assembly screws.

Melamine has its advantages, ease of working isn't one of them. Thats why shops that use it a lot spend big bucks on special saws with scoring blades or farm it out to a cnc.

JoeJoe, I always want to try the zip-r screws but have never found a place to purchase them that doesn't require you be in business. What's your source?

[Ray Schafer]

Me, too, (I have tried to find them and can't.) I am going to get a business license in a few weeks, so then I will buy them from hafele ... but it has been frustrating that I can't find them anywhere.

[Randal Stevenson]

You guys are making this way to complicated. As Matt M said, butt joint and confirmat screws and no glue. I've use this method for over 20 years on a number of kitchens and shop cabinets. Works very well. This type of box constructing also passes the AWI quality requirements.

Go over to the wood web and do a search on "case construction"


Let me complicate this some more.....

What about confirmat screws in regular wood? I am thinking of Using Melamine as the floor of some pullouts that are bound to have a few spills in them. (like an undersink cleaner cabinet). Any issues with them in that? (no experience with Melamine other then crosscutting a few shelves for a friend).

[Peter Quinn]

I got a Hafele account only to realize I had to buy 40,000 screws minimum to place an order, which is not bad for a large cabinet shop but quite an investment for my little operation.

I went with Deerfields the 'Ultimates' from Woodworkers Hardware (wwhardware.com). I tested them against the zip-r samples Hafele sent me and if there's a difference I can't find it. I drove screws in and out of test pieces of maple ply and soft maple scraps repeatedly, they work great and don't quit. Prices are $.004 more per screw than Hafele, but you don't have to buy 40,000 to get that price!

I've also used SPAX which I bought from Highland Hardware in a 1000pc box, and those screws grab like nothing I've seen. I think they are a hafele product. They don't have the self drilling points but do have a deeper more agressive thread pattern, teflon coated bodies and thicker shanks. I have yet to find a way to break these screws. They are rated for everything from particle board to concrete penetration! If you need a general purpose military grade bad ass screw SPAX is a good choice.

As far as butt joints and AWI quality standards, that is industry minimum requirement, not typical high quality custom cabinetry. If you want to use 5/8" melamine with screws and butt joints go ahead, but don't try to install that low end condo junk in my home, and don't try to tell me its stronger than dadoes and rabbit and groove. In this case the easiest way and the best way are not the same way. If its for your home, even melamine deserves better treatment.

Not trying to start an argument, but sick of hearing industry minimum standards quoted as if they yielded fine work typical of the craftsmen and craftswomen that populate this site.

[Karl Brogger]

When I did all melamine box work I just dado'd everything together. I'd cut additional rabbets and dados for the stretchers and hanging strip so they would be cut at the same size as the deck on a single opening cabinet. When the frame and back are on it's plenty strong enough. To me it's easier to just dado it then it is to use dowels or biscuts. JMO

Speaking of melamine cuts. I was cutting out a corner sink cabinet years ago. The sides had a 45 on one edge. It slipped. Should've gotten stitches. The ONLY thing I miss about melamine is the consistent thickness.

BTW- Spit/saliva is the best thing I've found for cleaning blood off of melamine.

[Joe Chritz]

Richard, I have a contractors license and a DBA so I could just order them but I normally use the screws from quick screw or WW supply. WW supply calls them assembly screws and they are essentially the same thing.

Deep threads, smaller shank than the threads, almost unbreakable, counter sink nibs and a #17 auger point. As long as it has those it will do the same thing just as well.

Zip'r is a just a brand from Hafele.
http://www.hafele.com/us/external/catalog/Connectors/447-462.pdf

see page 452

I prefer the #8's over the #9's since it seems to leave more material. The screw isn't the weak point in the system.

Joe

[Ray Schafer]

I was trying to get som #6 screws and could not find these in Assembly screws. Hafele has #6 Zip'r but I can't buy from them since I don't yet have a business license.

[Craig D Peltier]

Anyone here whos still reading this know how much a cabinet shop will approximately pay for 5x10x3/4 melamine in Taupe. I can get 36 sheets in taupe brand new for $5 each. I was wondering If I could keep 10 and sell 25 or so and make all my money back plus gas about $50.
Dunn was selling 4x8s for 30.00 plus tax. Think a shop may be paying 20?

[Peter Quinn]

I might have been confused but I think #6's in zip'rs from hafele require a very large order, like 120,000 screws, which leads me to think they are a special order. All the #6's I put in my cart above 3/4" required a very large minimum order. I've been using #8's from deerfield as they don't seem to have #6's either.

[Chris McDowell]

I order from Hafele all the time and I can assure you an order of screws does not have to be astronomical. They show pricing in the thousands but will sell in much smaller lots. Just ordered 1,ooo of the #6 Zip-r screws a week ago.

[Peter Quinn]

I'll have to call them. Using the online store I couldn't put anything in my cart below 40,000 screws, and #6's were over 100,000 screws. They have the best prices for that type of screw. Do you order online or by phone?

[Paul Simmel]

Yoshi,

I’m going to be building lower and upper carcasses out of cheap melamine particle board. My original plan was to use dados for glue surface (and alignment) and staples for the initial construction then reinforce with confirmat screws.

Based on your diagram, I can see that there’d be the same amount of wood-to-wood glue surface as there would be using a dado, and alignment would be a lot easier as well. I’m pretty sure I’m going to switch over to your method, but I have a few questions.

Where did you shoot your staples, and how long? If I aim for the edge of the female groove (staples parallel to it… only 3/8”), will it blow out the male tongue? Or will it just “tighten” the joint?

How did you do your backs?

Thanks.

[Chris McDowell]

Peter I usually order by phone but the Hafele rep stops by my shop at least once a month. Their website is horrible, don't waste your time with it.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Where did you shoot your staples, and how long?"

I have an "M" series Senco stapler that shoots a 3/8" crown staple. I used 1.5" length. The stapler really powered the staples so the joints got sucked down pretty tight. Staples were shot right into the center of the joint.

85761

One additional advantage of using this joint was that, because melamine panels vary in thickness, getting precise carcase widths was always difficult. So when the groove was milled, it was done on an overhead router so that the remaining thickness of material at the bottom of the groove was always "the same". This provided much better control over finished width. We're only talking a "skosh" here but if you gain a "skosh" on each cab and you have a run of four or five or more units, the difference can add up to a significant error.

YM

PS As I mentioned previously I am a card carrying member of MUA ("Melamine Users Anonymous") I have been "clean" for ten years now....