Can someone help me with my legs...

[Amy Leigh Baker]

My table legs, that is :D But now that I have your attention...

Okay... I'm in a bit of a pickle now. I have my legs all glued up and ready to assemble, and the apron is glued up as a frame, and I have to admit, everything looks pretty darn good. Corners square, used the chisel this morning to make things dry fit athe way they should. However...

I had planned on attaching the aprons to the legs via biscuits. But now that I have the legs all glued up, and the aprons all glued together, the biscuit jointer won't fit to correctly join them together. Yeah, talk about learning a lesson as you go! I've heard pocketholes mentioned, and I think that might work, but I don't know. And btw, I already cut the biscuit slots on the aprons before I realized that I wouldn't be able to cut them on the legs.

Here's a sketch and an earlier pic to show you what I have. The legs are 3" square. The aprons are 3".

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=83124&d=1204509531

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=83338&d=1204687822

Suggestions, please?

-Amy

[Mike Henderson]

The problem I see is getting sufficient strength to prevent racking. One idea would be to make a piece that you would glue on to the back of your apron. That piece would have a tenon on it which would go into a mortise that you cut into the legs. The two pieces in the front would just be glued to the legs since there's no stress on them.

That way you get the strength of M&T joinery. I would think that the tenon pieces could be 6" to 9" long - whatever fits best. Glue those pieces to the apron with any good glue.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Or make regular aprons with M&T joinery and treat your show aprons as a veneer and glue them to the structural aprons.

Mike

[Matt Bickford]

cutting the slots (mortises) by hand would be a good solution. It's not as fast as a biscuit joiner, but you could do it tomorrow morning.

[Cary Swoveland]

Amy,

I'm not really a leg-man, but I'll offer what advice I can.

I don't think you have anything to worry about. I'd use pocket screws, four per leg. You might also chisel flat spots on the inside corners of the back legs (at the top only, of course) and put a couple of screws through the diagonal brace and into the leg.

Do you plan to glue the legs to the apron? Here we have a cross-grain issue. Considering the dimensions involved, I don't know if there could be enough wood movement to break the joints. Your legs are fairly beefy, so it may be something to consider. The adhesive you select may also be important--epoxies are sometimes recommended for cross-grain applications, because they retain a degree of flexibility. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could offer advice on this issue.

Cary

[Amy Leigh Baker]

... You might also chisel flat spots on the inside corners of the back legs (at the top only, of course) and put a couple of screws through the diagonal brace and into the leg.

I hadn't thought of that and I like it. I have never chiseled parts of wood, just trimmed edges flush and so forth. That's why I can't see myself chiseling out a M & T joint for this. I had thought about cutting mortises for the biscuits by hand, but again this seems daunting to me.


Do you plan to glue the legs to the apron? Here we have a cross-grain issue. Considering the dimensions involved, I don't know if there could be enough wood movement to break the joints. Your legs are fairly beefy, so it may be something to consider. The adhesive you select may also be important--epoxies are sometimes recommended for cross-grain applications, because they retain a degree of flexibility. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could offer advice on this issue.

This I know absolutely nothing about. Any further advice would be greatly appreciated!

Amy

[Joe Scharle]

Your drawing shows standard leg bracing for the rear legs. A lag screw thru the glued brace will pull the leg hard against the apron corners. That's why you need to shave a flat spot on the leg. So that the drill bit won't deflect on the sharp corner. I assume from your drawing, that your tabletop is to serve as the top front stretcher. If that's the case, I suggest that you head pin the legs with short dowels and connect the top all around with 2" mending plates and at this stage, pocket hole the aprons to the legs. Even so, the front legs will still be weak unless you incorporate a stretcher beneath the drawer. Good luck, Joe

[Amy Leigh Baker]

I assume from your drawing, that your tabletop is to serve as the top front stretcher. If that's the case, I suggest that you head pin the legs with short dowels and connect the top all around with 2" mending plates and at this stage, pocket hole the aprons to the legs.

Could you please explain what 2" mending plates are, or even better, provide an example online?

Another question for everybody... when using pocket screws, do you only screw a hole through the top piece, and then place it on the lower piece and the screw digs into fresh wood in the opposing piece? IN other words, you don't have to simultaneously set up the jig on both pieces you are joining?

[Joe Scharle]

http://images.homeandbeyond.com/prod-0075433-prod.jpg (http://www.homeandbeyond.com/prod-0075433-zoom.html)
Mending plate

You can buy the pocket (1 hole) Kreg jig with a bit for <$20 and that's the only one that will fit in place now if you've glued up.
You make the pocket on 1 piece. Then you drill the pocket screw thru the hole into the other piece. Instruction sheet in jig pkg tells all. Read before leaving store!
Joe

[Sam Yerardi]

Amy,

I have to admit I am a leg man ;)...

Ok, everyone has pointed out some good ways to attach the legs to the apron. In answer to your last question, you want to carry the drill thru to the piece of wood you are ultimately screwing into (if that makes sense). If you don't, (especially at the ends of the apron boards where you need to attach to the legs) you will force the wood to split. A screw has a MAJOR diameter and a MINIMUM diameter. The major diameter includes the threads in the width of the screw. The minimum is only the central shank or column without the threads. Typically when you drill a hole for a screw like you are describing, you will have two drill sizes. One size for the minimum diameter (this will carry through into the second piece to the depth you want) and one size for the major diameter. The major diameter hole allows the screw to pass through the first piece of wood without obstruction. Myself, I size the holes a bit tighter to give it more bite but that's just me.

As someone pointed out, racking could be an issue since you don't have much strength against that with the design you have. There isn't anything wrong with your design, as this applies to furniture built by anyone. Since you have a limited amount of area to work with, glues alone (IMHO) aren't going to be strong enough. Of course it depends on how the table is used, but I would strengthen it with screws additionally. The next question is - is how do you apply the screws? You can go into each leg at right angles into the apron pieces from the inside. Stagger them so that you evenly spread the screws. I would use at a minimum PVA or epoxy. Keep in mind if you use epoxy, you won't be able to get it apart again.

Another approach might be to cut a block that wraps itself around the leg and allows you to screw into the apron. Using you second picture, you show brackets across the back legs. You could make those a solid piece and glue them in and apply screws. The front would need to be different as you don't have the same amount of room.

[josh bjork]

I'd run stretchers between the side legs and between the back legs too. That would prevent racking and the connections at the top wouldn't be so important. You could also use some sort of knock down hardware if you were inventive and that can make a very stiff base. I'll seem like the doomsayer today but I've done projects like that and then I've done them over.