I'm not trying to push buttons

[Karl Brogger]

I've seen a couple of posts about people wanting dust collection in the floor of their shops. Why? You are loosing the flexability to move equipment around to different locations if need be. Plus if something gets sucked in that shouldn't have, and it won't get sucked back out, how do you fix that? I've worked at two places that did this, (one had a trench like a floor drain covered with a 2X12, PIA), I personally thought it was a mistake. Perhaps on a commercial level people figure that a building with holes in the floor will be less desirable for resale, and that is why it is so rarely seen being that a building is typically viewed as a seperate investment from the equipment. To me the benifit of having a pipe unseen is out weighed by the detriments. Just my opinion.

[Christopher Pine]

built his shop with pvc in the concrete floor for his dust collection system, and I think it is awesome! I do see your points about blockages etc and that would present a problem perhaps to get some object out.
It is just a very nice finished way of doing it. He has outlets around at various places and has it all setup... it really is nice!

[Peter Quinn]

Hey Karl, if the under floor pipe gets clogged, you just send a few gerbils into the pipe, they chew through the clog, and viola, back in business. Oh, be sure to shut off the blower first if you like gerbils.

[Nancy Laird]

Karl, if everyone liked the same thing, we'd all be driving around in Ford station wagons and eating chocolate ice cream! The way an owner sets up his/her DC system is his/her own choice, and although you may not understand or like it, it's their shop and he/she is the one who is going to have to deal with any problems down the road. Why? Is someone trying to push you into having your DC under the floor? Under-floor installation is much cleaner and less intrusive on the rest of the shop, but as my grandmother used to say: everybody to his/her own taste, said the old woman as she kissed the mule!!

[Karl Brogger]

Karl, if everyone liked the same thing, we'd all be driving around in Ford station wagons and eating chocolate ice cream! The way an owner sets up his/her DC system is his/her own choice, and although you may not understand or like it, it's their shop and he/she is the one who is going to have to deal with any problems down the road. Why? Is someone trying to push you into having your DC under the floor? Under-floor installation is much cleaner and less intrusive on the rest of the shop, but as my grandmother used to say: everybody to his/her own taste, said the old woman as she kissed the mule!!

This isn't a case of form over function though. Function is the form. How I feel doesn't mean a thing. I didn't put anyone down, I didn't say it was "stupid", or any belittling comments. No one is pushing me to do anything. I just saw a couple of references to it and remember back to how unimpressed I was by systems that were set up in this manner. I was trying to bring to light some of the positive aspects that I may be unaware of. Settle down. If it is "much cleaner and less intrusive" and that is it then I guess it is done. I'm not to sure about your animal husbandry remark though! ;)

[Sean Troy]

This isn't a case of form over function though. Function is the form. How I feel doesn't mean a thing. I didn't put anyone down, I didn't say it was "stupid", or any belittling comments. No one is pushing me to do anything. I just saw a couple of references to it and remember back to how unimpressed I was by systems that were set up in this manner. I was trying to bring to light some of the positive aspects that I may be unaware of. Settle down. If it is "much cleaner and less intrusive" and that is it then I guess it is done. I'm not to sure about your animal husbandry remark though! ;)
Wow Karl, it looks like you are trying to push buttons with that settle down remark.

[Alan Schaffter]

Now, if your shop is above the garage and the blower and cyclone are on the garage level, like mine, the combination of knee wall and below floor duct and in-floor DC ports is great! No hose hanging down, little to to get in the way. No dust has to go up, it all goes horizontal or down!


http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/P1010091a.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/P10100901.jpg

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/P1010089a.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/Odc-4.JPG

[David Duke]

I did a combination of both in ceiling and in the floor, I have a total of three "drops" in the floor, one to the TS, another to the planer, and the last to my drum sander.

I was wanting to eliminate the drops in the center of the shop where each is located because I didn't want to fight with missing these while handling long pieces of lumber. I have used this set up for 6 years now and wouldn't change a thing, what you definitely need to do when considering in floor dust collection is PLAN, PLAN, PLAN.......... I spent several hours in the form laying out every piece of equipment I had and where it was going. The three piece that have in floor collection will never be moved because they are exactly where they need to be. Now my drops along the exterior walls (a total of six) are all pretty much where they need to be but I could see in the future rerouting a couple of these which will be pretty easy if I choose to do so.

PS : Alan I was intending to say you have a fantastic set up there, way to clean though!!!!!

[Ken Harrod]

That installation with the hoses going to the floor is very slick looking, in my opinion.

If you are worried about moving equipment around in the future, just add a few extra drops when you are underneath doing the initial install, and just leve them capped. The trap doors in the above pictures look great.

If you get a blockage, just get out a snake like you would use in a plumbing blockage and poke it through. Shouldn't be as tough to clear as the sewer is, especially if the DC was running at the same time you were trying to clear it.

Ken

[Don Abele]

...If you get a blockage, just get out a snake like you would use in a plumbing blockage...Ken

Ken, I was going to mention that very same thing. Sewage pipes are ALWAYS plumbed underground and often under a slab. They have a lot nastier stuff to deal with including tree roots and breakage of the pipe. I can't see a DC setup being subjected to same "abuse". In the 8 years I've had a DC system, I've never had a blockage (and I used to use the floor sweep as a "clean-all").

I think the ONLY disadvantage is the inability to relocate or add in the future. Strategically placing them may help some. But it is kind of hard to future proof when they are in concrete. Now, putting them in a crawl space or in the garage under the shop (nice set-up Alan) prevents this.

As for resale. I'd cut them flush with the floor, plug them 4" down, then fill with concrete even with the floor. All gone!

Be well,

Doc

[Dave MacArthur]

I thought this was an interesting topic for a thread, here I am reading it. I was interested in Karl's observations on some shops he worked in, which seemed valid to me. Combined with his topic title "not trying to push buttons", I find it difficult to understand why anyone would take issue with his question...

I've probably read about > 400 threads on Dust collection here at SMC, and this is the first one that asked about the negative aspects of the presumed mecca of DC plumbing, in-floor pipes. I'm very interested in all replies, as I'm planning a custom house with the mecca of all shops... someday... ;)

[Joe Chritz]

Less flexibility in changing the set up is really the only disadvantage that I see. Maybe reduced efficiency if the system is close to maxed out already. There would have to be an extra bend or two.

Overhead pipes aren't really all that easy to disassemble for cleaning and would probably need to be snaked anyway.

I wish I had an in floor to cover my Table saw shaper. The drop isn't bad but not having it would free up some space.

A crawl space would give the best of both worlds.

Joe

[Pete Stack]

Alan,

Is it wrong to admit that I drooled when looking at your DC set-up?

[Matt Meiser]

A friend has ducts under his radiant-heated slab. Somewhere he has a leak since groundwater gets into the duct during the wet season. No way to rip it up and fix it without major expense. I'd probably have the same problem as wet as my yard is. He also lost his remote control down there, which is probably ruined even if he did fish it out due to the water. Apparently a remote is heavy enough to drop out of the air stream. His system is all spiral metal duct. I have no idea whether he used something special, but that water on the inside is bound to be a problem in terms of rust eventually. PVC would probably be better in for burial.

On the other hand, his shop is mostly clear of vertical obstructions which would be nice. It would also make a multi-purpose hobby shop easier since you could fabricate electrical/ductwork boxes in the floor with a cover over them. When you want to move a machine out of the way, just disconnect power and the duct and place the cover. With overhead, you have the pipe hanging down. Finding a quick-connect solution for hanging pipe is more difficult.

[Jason Koon]

that's probably the nicest setup i've seen. Congratulations!

[John Keeton]

Alan

If I had an overhead shop, that is exactly what I would do. Very nice. The only drawback for me would be bending over to the blast gates. Wondering if one could turn them 90 degrees, and put an extension of some sort on them to be able to open/close from a standing position? Just one of the things one looks at when one's hair is white! Probably wouldn't have crossed my mind a couple of decades ago. Looks like you left some flexibility in your system - a floor sweep for the garage underneath would be a neat idea!

[Gary Lange]

Alan, that is the nicest Dust Collection system I have ever seen. I also note the Electric Garage door openers. I have never seen any built into the spring lift that way. That is neat and if I had that when I lived in Illinois I wouldn't have had to cut a hole in my support beam. Very nice and very clean arrangement. Oh, and I suspect that a sewer router would clean out any clogs that formed.

[Peter Quadarella]

The thing with the floor installations, as far as I can tell, is that if you don't like their placement or have a problem with one, worst case is that you stop using it. So other than cost, very little downside.

[Greg Funk]

I installed ducting under the slab in my shop and would do it again. Most machines have flex hose connecting them to the floor mounted ducts so I can easily move things around if necessary. The planer is the only tool that would be better suited to an overhead duct.

I like the clean look of no overhead ducts. No plugged ducts in 5 yrs.

Greg

[Ted Jay]

Now, if your shop is above the garage and the blower and cyclone are on the garage level, like mine, the combination of knee wall and below floor duct and in-floor DC ports is great! No hose hanging down, little to to get in the way. No dust has to go up, it all goes horizontal or down!



Alan, that is disgusting.... How could you post pictures such as that....

Now I have to build a second floor and move the shop over the garage... Thanks alot pal...:p:D

Ted
(I was plannning the larger shop out and I was going to do a second floor for wood storage. now your giving me more to think about....)

[Ted Jay]

Alan

If I had an overhead shop, that is exactly what I would do. Very nice. The only drawback for me would be bending over to the blast gates. Wondering if one could turn them 90 degrees, and put an extension of some sort on them to be able to open/close from a standing position? Just one of the things one looks at when one's hair is white! Probably wouldn't have crossed my mind a couple of decades ago. Looks like you left some flexibility in your system - a floor sweep for the garage underneath would be a neat idea!

here John no bending over. Use an automatic blast gate.
http://www.kbduct.com/blastgates.shtml

[ROY DICK]

This was a good point brought up by Karl and his opinions.
Wouldn't any below grade system, be it electrical or other wise, build up some condensation (?) and thus lead to a certain amount of blockage ?

Just asking.

Roy :confused:

[Luther Oswalt]

Matt.
Has your friend talked with any of the Companys that use TV/Camera exporation to find the leaks? They may be able to isolate the leaks holding the breakout to a min.
Leo

[Ted Jay]

This was a good point brought up by Karl and his opinions.
Wouldn't any below grade system, be it electrical or other wise, build up some condensation (?) and thus lead to a certain amount of blockage ?

Just asking.

Roy :confused:

I would think that with all the air flow it would dry out any condensation if any.
Ted
I just read Matts post. It makes me wonder why anyone would use metal ducting in a concrete slab???

[Matt Meiser]

Since he has PEX tubing running throughout the slab for heat, breaking up anything isn't an option even if he knew where the leak was.

Ted, If you are in the metal duct camp, and the under the slab camp, I guess it would be your only option. :D

[Dave Chrudimsky]

Alan,

Looks like I wasn't the only one that noticed. Are those Idrives? How do you like them? Are they quieter then conventional openers? Did you install them yourself?

(Sorry to hijack a thread...)
-chrud

[Karl Brogger]

I've pulled some stuff out of dust collection pipes that just made you wonder how it got in there. 1/8" X 3/4 X 30" pieces that you just rub your head wondering how it got there. I recently had to change some stuff for the mitre saw when I replaced my drum sander with a widebelt. I found a handful of small pieces that were too dense to make the turn going up to the ceiling.

I can fully understand the clean look. I agree it looks nice.

Having to move things still would trouble me. Sometimes you do have to move a couple of things to make space for one more. Being able to just cut and move a pipe or change the system around.

I use the absolute minimum for dust collection. Tablesaw, mitre saw, planer, widebelt, and a spare for plugging flex hose and a piece of pvc under the tablesaw table for hooking up to everything else that doesn't have a dedicated line. Anything that doesn't really put dust in the air I don't bother with. Like the jointer. Just my opinion but it is easier to grab the chips with the broom vs emptying the dust collector that much sooner. Same with the table saw when I'm dadoing. I just sweep it out of the bottom. I also despise emptying the dust collector and can't wait untill I can have it pumped into a dumpster or a trailer for disposal so it doesn't have to be touched.

[Greg Funk]

A friend has ducts under his radiant-heated slab. Somewhere he has a leak since groundwater gets into the duct during the wet season. No way to rip it up and fix it without major expense.
To install our pipes they dug a trench in the sand, lined it with plastic and then sprayed everything with a fairly thick layer of hard polyurethane foam. 85444
Once the foam was sprayed on you could walk on the pipes as I recall without damaging them. Given the pipes are right below the slab I don't think there is any water present. I can shove my arm down the pipes and haven't ever felt any moisture.

Greg

[Reed Wells]

Alan, Those floor covers are fine as frogs hair! What method are you using to work as a stop?

[Ted Jay]

Since he has PEX tubing running throughout the slab for heat, breaking up anything isn't an option even if he knew where the leak was.
...

Hey Matt,
Take a look at this...
http://www.perma-liner.com/perma_patch.html

[Steve Clardy]

I have infloor ducting under concrete and am perfectly happy with it.
Yes, I would do it again.

I added extra inlets in case I moved anything.

Its 4 and 6 inch pvc