SCMS advice, please

[Brian W Evans]

As I'm sure you're aware, continued support by LOMLs & SWMBOs often requires that you actually produce something useful (shop fixtures are not considered useful for some reason:D). In my case, I've been conscripted as a trim carpenter. I plan to make some lemonade out of this lemon, however, because I obviously need some new tools to do this job right...

Currently, I have a low-end craftsman 12" cms that I use for rough cutting lumber to length and for construction-like jobs. I haven't had much success doing trim work with it - my cuts always seem to be off by as much as 1/32" and the angles are off by a little bit as well. I'm guessing deflection is the issue (couldn't possibly be operator error ;)).

No matter what the cause, I'd like to use this as an opportunity to upgrade to an scms.

Any thoughts? My questions so far are:


To slide or not to slide?
10" or 12"?
Brand/Model preferences? (kapex is not an option - too much $$$)
I will be doing plenty of trim work in the future, as well as rough cutting/construction work with it. I would also like to have it be useful in the shop for woodworking.

Thanks for your help.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Brian,

I'm sure I'll get jumped for this statement. The best results in doing finishing work I got with a borrowed CMS. My neighbor bought a used 7 1/2" or 8" Craftsman from a friend. I borrowed it and that rascal was as accurate a saw as I've found. After I initially adjusted it, it was dead on through the whole project. I had it for several weeks before I got the project finished.

I currently have a Delta 10" SCMS. Frankly, knowing what I do now, if I was doing it all over again, I don't know I would get a slider. Great for framing but for fine detail work I'd problably get a good CMS.

JMHO.

I'm waiting for the flogging to begin.:D

[Ray Newman]

I have an older Hitachi C10FS 10" SCMS. Works well & is accurate & will X-cut a 12" board.

However as w/ most MS/SCMS, the DC is not very good. Also the sliding arm unit takes a great deal space to the rear.

I heard many users of the Makita slider say that it is an accurate saw & the DC works fairly well.

If I was going to look @ a new slider, I'd give a serious look to the new Hitachi models as they don 't seem to take up as much room as the older sliders.

I'd go to the big boxes & look @ & manipulate the MS/SCMS on display.

[John Callahan]

I agree with Ken. At work (trim carpentry) 12" compound miter saws are able to take care of 99% of what we do. Stairwork (skirt and treads) are the 1%. I think you'd find a 10" CMS too limited; on most you won't able to cut a 2x6 or clapboards whereas it's not an isue on a 12" CMS. I run a Makita LS1220, it's been a good saw. The current Makita LS1221 is basically the same saw minus the soft start and some other features. I'd check out reconditioned tools- most have a factory warranty and you can save some serious $. Downside to a 12" CMS is that blades cost more is that blades cost more.

[Brian W Evans]

Thanks for the advice. It's greatly appreciated.

[David DeCristoforo]

My favorite is still the "original" 8" Hitachi. Very solid well made machine and the smaller blade does not deflect nearly as much as the larger ones do. With the slider, this saw can handle 95% of the cuts you will need to make. I'm on my second one after it took almost ten years of use to wear out the first one.

FWIW
YM

[Jim O'Dell]

I've heard that the larger the blade, the more deflection there "can" be, and therefore more margin for error. I also don't think there is much difference in the crosscut capability between the 10" and 12". I did get the Hitachi 10" SCMS recently. I've played with it a little, but haven't really spent time to make sure it is dialed in. It seems pretty close out of the box. When I need something that I'm confident that it is on the mark, I'll most likely use my Jointech SmartMitre and table saw. (It cost me more than I paid for the Hitachi, it better be more accurate!! :D) Jim.

[Eric Haycraft]

The two brands that are consistently praised are Makita and Hitachi. I have the makita 10 inch slider and it works great. Because of the deflection issue, I would stick with 10 inches on a slider, but 12 in a fixed shouldn't be an issue.

[Richard M. Wolfe]

Ditto on the Makita. I have had mine for about four years and for as lightweight as it is the cuts have remained true. I had a Craftsman 10" cms that was about a third the price and did about a third as well. It sure is nice to be able to crosscut a 1x12.

[Charlie McGuire]

I've had the original Bosch 10" SCMS for about 8 years and have been happy with it. I like the fence on the Bosch better than most I've seen. The only competitor at the time I bought mine was the Makita 10". It was a toss up for me at the time until the Bosch went on sale.

I use mine for virtually all of my crosscuts - trim work, face frames, shelves, etc. The downside is that it only tilts one direction which isn't a deal breaker, just inconvenient sometimes. I've read comments that the newer Bosches can have deflection issues.

I think it is possible to have more deflection on a 12", but technique counts for a lot so mileage varies there. I would say that the frame of a SCMS probably accounts for more accuracy issues people see than the size of the blade. I haven't looked too much at the newer saws so I'm not sure what I would buy today. Probably either Makita or Hitachi from what little I've read.

Charlie

[J. Z. Guest]

I'd vote for a top quality, non-sliding 12". Too many moving parts on sliders to keep it ultra accurate without also being ultra expensive.

Also, if your wife is like mine, you will get funny looks for spending $100 on tools for every $10 worth of work you get done. (but I'm just starting, in my defense)

[terry hansen]

I sold my 12in delta (one way bevel) and bought a 10in bosch slider w/bevel in both directions. Did I need it - of course.. It is a great saw, BUT dust collection consists mainly of dust settling in the space the saw is used in and it does take up a lot of space. It does stay accurate and cuts anything I want it to. The dual bevel is nice and the laser mark is OK, but like any tool you own once you learn where the blade cuts it is more of a check.
IMHO if you want compound cuts - how the saw adjusts for bevels and it indicates the bevel as well as adjusting for standard miter cuts becomes important so you don't have to continuously check the angle when you're cutting crown. If you can go somewhere that has multipe models on display so you can feel how the saw works, slides, adjusts.

I would buy the bosch slider again as it works really well.

Remember one of the cardinal rules of home owner trim/crown installation - Your spouse is NOT your helper.

[John Thompson]

I sold my Hitachi 10" SCMS and got the Hitachi 12" SCMS. I ran into several situations I was cross-cutting over 4" thick legs and the 10" will handle slightly under 4" with the 12" doing 5". I do all cross-cutting on the SCMS from the time stock enters the shop until it leaves. I mounted a portable extention top on a MDF cabinet and that gives me lenght capacity of 16' with the extentions slid out.

So.. it depends on what your needs are. You may and may not need a 12' opposed to a 10"? You would be fine with either Hitachi or Makita. Both are excellent IMO>

Now.. with all that said.. you may not need either. You said you miter cuts were off by 1/32" of an inch and it couldn't be human error and must be deflection. Are you sure it couldn't be human error and not deflection? I will explain.

I was getting what I thought was deflection on my SCMS. Absolutely no deflection on 90* degree straight cuts.. but about 1/32" on angle cuts that I stood on the fence as base.. chair rail.. crown.. etc. I thought it was deflection caused by a thin kerf blade. About all SCMS blades are thin kerf to add a little extra punch to the smaller electric motors.

But... it was pointed out to me the deflection was not deflection by trim carpenters that do just that every day. The deflection was not in the saw but... when doing angles the blades comes into the cut at a more aggressive angle. If the stock is not held very tight or clamped to the fence.. the blade will cause the stock to slip it's original position giving the small gap.

This is called either "creep" or "walking the fence" by professional trim carpenters. So.. first check to see if your "deflection" happens at 90* degrees. If not.. clamp a piece of stock firmly on the fence standing and see what happens. And... it was recommended to me to slow down the lowering feed rate as you cannot feed as agressively as with a 90* degree cut.

See if you are really getting deflection.. or maybe you are just "walking the fence" and do not need a new saw at all. You may actually have deflection as the Craftsman may be just a low quality saw. But.. with that said... you will also get it with a very well made saw if you are not aware of the information I mentioned above.

Also.. most of those trim carpenters use self adhesive sand-paper on their fence to assist their firm grasp of the stock. Those guys have been there.. done that.. and come up with a bag of tricks to correct problems they encounter day-in.. day--out..

I have never seen true deflection on any quality miter or SCMS I have used which is limited to Hitachi and Makita. Maybe on some saws that I have not used?

Good luck...

Sarge..

[John Thompson]

Ha.. ha... don't ask me how this posted twice... I will delete the content as it's the same..

Sarge..

[William OConnell]

Im suprised at the responses on why you don't need a slider. They're just more versatile. As far as deflection issues cheap saws have them quality ones don't. I'm a general contractor and small shop owner. I have the older Dewalt 708 its beefier and seems to be better made than the newer one. I rarely have to tune my saw as it holds its settings well. Its very accurate. Ive used Makitas and Hitachis and Deltas and Craftsmans abd bosch's at work. I think the deltas he worst out of the lot.
I run a framing and siding crew and we never use a slider for framing its simply not the tool for the job a crcular saw and sawzall are. Its great for siding and fascia though. For that application a non slider would be innefficient and create more work.
In the shop my slider is constantly in use. I dont always need the extra capacity but its nic eto have it right there and I do use it often. I cut all my cabinet uppers with it.
Heres a short video of the dust box I made a few years ago for the saw.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbUTQukORJc

[David DeCristoforo]

Blade deflection is usually not an issue when cutting through a piece of stock because the blade is "supported" equally on both sides. The problem is much more of an issue when one attempts to "nibble" up to the cut line, removing a fraction of the blade width with each cut. Then it does not matter what the angle of the blade is. And John T is correct in that most chop saw users tend to use to high a "feed rate".

With a slider, I have found that the "best" method is to bring the blade forward, cutting just deep enough to "score" the surface of the material. The plunge the blade to full depth and cut the remaining thickness of the stock by slowly pushing the blade back through the material.

YM

[Vince Shriver]

William: Can you post more (pictures) of that box you made for your chop saw?

[Jason White]

The new Festool "Kapex" looks mighty interesting...

http://www.bobmarinosbesttools.com/product_detail.html?sid=a11659fbd5958da1281e9d68e3 3c4e57&pid=561287



As I'm sure you're aware, continued support by LOMLs & SWMBOs often requires that you actually produce something useful (shop fixtures are not considered useful for some reason:D). In my case, I've been conscripted as a trim carpenter. I plan to make some lemonade out of this lemon, however, because I obviously need some new tools to do this job right...

Currently, I have a low-end craftsman 12" cms that I use for rough cutting lumber to length and for construction-like jobs. I haven't had much success doing trim work with it - my cuts always seem to be off by as much as 1/32" and the angles are off by a little bit as well. I'm guessing deflection is the issue (couldn't possibly be operator error ;)).

No matter what the cause, I'd like to use this as an opportunity to upgrade to an scms.

Any thoughts? My questions so far are:


To slide or not to slide?
10" or 12"?
Brand/Model preferences? (kapex is not an option - too much $$$)
I will be doing plenty of trim work in the future, as well as rough cutting/construction work with it. I would also like to have it be useful in the shop for woodworking.

Thanks for your help.

[J. Z. Guest]

Thirteen Hundo!? ...and that's a pre-order!? Phew. That's a lotta bread. I'm sure it's good, but Holy Moley. I guess that's been said before. But then, folks get it in the back of their minds and are curious until they finally give in and slap down the greenbacks.

I will anxiously read the reviews when they come out, but chances are about 0.2% that I'll buy one.

I bet someone here will have one of the first batch and post a big gloat post too. :D

[Joel Goodman]

With my slider I often use it with the slide locked as a regular miter saw. Then if I need the capacity I just unlock the slider. The extra capacity is great when you need it. The only downside of a slider is the extra bulk and weight. If it's mostly staying in the shop not a problem. I have had the 10 inch Milwaulkee (do they even make it anymore?) for several years which has been fine although bulkier than the Makita.

[Brian W Evans]

Thanks again for all the input. I sat down this afternoon and watched a how-to dvd on trim carpentry and, uh, operator error now seems more likely. Add to that John T's comments about walking the fence and well, you get the picture.

I'm not ruling out buying a slider, though. My question now is - how many of you use an scms for actual woodworking projects?

I also have a question for those of you who are carpenters - do you ever install pre-finished trim? I'm not talking about primed, but really all-the-way finished stuff. In my kitchen, I took meticulous measurements, cut the pieces, stained, finished, and THEN installed them. After watching the video today, it seems like much of the process involves test fitting, taking a few swipes with a plane/chisel/file, refitting, etc. Is it realistic to finish trim before installation? Sorry if this is too far off topic.

Thanks again.

[Tom Esh]

...I'm not ruling out buying a slider, though. My question now is - how many of you use an scms for actual woodworking projects?

I think they're fantastic for carpentry, but barely qualified as woodworking tools. I use the MS only for breakdown and rough cut except maybe for trim pieces. Otherwise it's always a crapshoot as to whether the blade deflection (wavy cut) monster is going to rear its ugly head. I can minimize it by feeding just fast enough to avoid burn, but that's not always possible with materials like cherry that burn easily.

[Paul Girouard]

I'm not ruling out buying a slider, though. My question now is - how many of you use an scms for actual woodworking projects?

I also have a question for those of you who are carpenters - do you ever install prefinished trim? I'm not talking about primed, but really all-the-way finished stuff. In my kitchen, I took meticulous measurements, cut the pieces, stained, finished, and THEN installed them. After watching the video today, it seems like much of the process involves test fitting, taking a few swipes with a plane/chisel/file, refitting, etc. Is it realistic to finish trim before installation? Sorry if this is too far off topic.



Yes and yes .

Hitachi 10" SCMS

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/July27th3.jpg

As far as prefinished trim sure all the time , it can be a PITA mostly due to the trim we get being thin and / thin / varying , but yes I do it all the time .


10 or 12 year old entertainment center
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/Mar222008BobGraceTVcabinets5.jpg


Hand rails ,

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/Oct10200715.jpg

Trim ,

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/feb2012.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/feb154.jpg

Woodworking ,

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/Feb1120084.jpg

Best one on the market IMO , Festools new one may be good haven't seen one of those yet . But I have seen and used Makita , Dewalt , Bosch etc , Hitachi 10" hands down the best . YMMV.

[Randal Stevenson]

I sold my Hitachi 10" SCMS and got the Hitachi 12" SCMS. You may and may not need a 12' opposed to a 10"?
Good luck...

Sarge..

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Holy huge sawblades! A 12' saw, I need a picture!:D

Thanks for the laugh sarge

[Scott Vigder]

About two years ago I replaced my radial arm saw with a Metabo 12" CSMS.

Let me add up all the times I have missed my RAS. The total is zero!

I build mostly Mission style furniture, and use the Metabo frequently.

[John Thompson]

Well Randall... I may not be able to provide picture's of the 12' saw at the current moment as ughh. ughh..... my camera broke just before I could snap the shutter.. May be years before I can afford to get it repaired. :D

The next time I am at Suwanee Lumber.. they might provide me with a picture of theirs down in the cut warehouse. Combustion engine with belt and pulley drive. Looks like a tractor engine to me as they won't let you get too close for liability reasons.

Brian... I use my SCMS almost everyday. I have extentions that slide out giving 16' cross-cut ability that I need when stock first arrives. But after down-sizing I still use it to do all cross-cuts as I find it accurate and quickly accessable. I run a 20 T Euro rip blade on my TS and the SCMS eliminates blade changes.

And again.. it handles stock up to 5" thick and about 14" wide. I can cross cut up to 28" by simply turning the stock over after using flat top Rigid stands to help support the over-hang. I cut a 23" wide chest top to lenght on it yesterday. I will make the cut about 1mm proud of true cut line... then come back with a pass from a low angle smoother or block plane to finalize the cut line to exact. It also insures a very smooth end grain.

And I use it for all angle cuts for trim and miters. But... my low angle block plane gets the call there to finalize there also for exact. I learned to use planes long before I had the modern power tools. In essence... I put the horse before the cart out of necessity at the time. Of that.. I am glad as there are just some things you can do with them that you can't get exact with a power tool.

So.. to me the SCMS is very versatile.. a time saver and a very important tool in my mode of operation. I cut tenons by hand and do use the TS for box joints... but basically it's a ripper for me and it gets that call almost every day.

Sarge..

[Niels J. Larsen]

Don't know what saw you should buy, but I CAN say that if you value dust extraction, do NOT buy the Bosch 10" (called GCM 10S here in Europe)!

However - if you DO value dust extraction there's probably only one choice - the Festool Kapex :D

No, I don't own the Kapex, but it haunts me in my dreams. I've handled it at the toolpusher's place and it's a dream come true. Everything - and I mean *everything* I've ever thought of would be a nice feature (and more) is in this saw.