Tung Oil and Shellac?

[Mark Kelly]

Ok, as far as I know the finish from tung oil is much 'weaker' than shellac (especially if using it on a a workbench top, or something that will potentially have a lot more wear.) I read that if you want to combine them (using the tung oil to give it the special look and the shellac for the toughness of a finish) you first put down the shellac then the tung oil. Is this correct? I would think it the other way around, but I am not too familiar how they bond to the wood. Any help here would be appreciated.

Oh, and is shellac (by itself) pretty good at keeping water off wood?

[Jim Becker]

Oil first...you want it to soak in and enhance the wood. Then coat with Shellac if you want to seal the work or like the look. If you use de-waxed shellac, you can also put just about anything on top of that. If you use shellac with wax, you need to avoid polyurethane or WB products, but can apply alkyd- or resin-based varnishes.

On a workbench...I'd just use the oil and be done with it since that leaves you "renewabilty" merely by applying another coat of oil without sacrificing easy glue release for drips, etc. (I use BLO rather than tung oil) If you put a film finish on it, you'll have more work to renew the finish.

BTW, I'm assuming that when you refer to "tung oil" you're refering to the real thing, not "Tung Oil Finish", which generally contains no tung oil and is basically a wiping varnish or danish oil. (varnish/oil mix).

[Mark Kelly]

On a workbench...I'd just use the oil and be done with it since that leaves you "renewabilty" merely by applying another coat of oil without sacrificing easy glue release for drips, etc. (I use BLO rather than tung oil) If you put a film finish on it, you'll have more work to renew the finish.

BTW, I'm assuming that when you refer to "tung oil" you're refering to the real thing, not "Tung Oil Finish", which generally contains no tung oil and is basically a wiping varnish or danish oil. (varnish/oil mix).[/QUOTE]

Does BLO have the same look as Tung? I have never used these oils before and am kinda curious as to trying them out.

Hmmm, I didn't know there was a difference, but now I do! Thank you for that.

[Jim Becker]

Does BLO have the same look as Tung? I have never used these oils before and am kinda curious as to trying them out

Beware of marketing tricks when the can has the word "tung" on it! Finish companies are notorious for taking advantage of consumers. Kinda like the folks that assign horsepower numbers to things like compressors and power tools!:rolleyes:

In most cases, you can't tell the difference between BLO and "real" tung oil. In many cases, the BLO will dry faster. Both have similar effects. BLO is also a lot less expensive unless you buy the fancy-schmancy brand that is polymerized, rather than using metalic driers. (Which I like, BTW, but only use when I need to finish indoors in the winter since we have birds)

[Donnie Raines]

Not to confuse things here(ok...it will). But, you can mix diffrent grades of shellac to obtain a look simliar to that of an oil finish..yet will provide a bit more durabilty. Under the example you have outlined(workbench) go with what has already been advised.


DonnieR

[Steven Wilson]

Oil first to pop the grain, let dry, then apply shellac. For my bench I just apply shellac, when it gets beat up I scrape lightly with a card scraper and then brush on a fresh coat of shellac. If I brush on the shellac before lunch the bench will be ready for use after lunch.

[Chris Padilla]

I see you folks have read Mr. Flexner's book well! I was just reading those sections most of you are 'quoting' above. It is so nice to understand how all these finishes work! It isn't so mysterious now.

I now know boiled linseed oil is a horrible finish by itself (protection-speaking) but I think it would work nicely for a shop bench. It does take a few days for the smell to be gone (i.e. the BLO dries) but it is a pleasant looking finish.

I have a TV stand that I just finished and I did the whole thing in nothing but BLO. The stand is nothing but Birch (HD) plywood, some wheels, and an aluminum frame. This stand will be completely hidden from view when I'm all done with the cabinet it will roll into but I thought I'd put something on it just for fun and it will provide some protection.

[Jim Becker]

I see you folks have read Mr. Flexner's book well! I was just reading those sections most of you are 'quoting' above.

Actually, I never have read his book, but hear it's good. A couple of folks who participate in another forum that I'm active at are finishing pros and often talk about these things.

I actually don't mind the smell of BLO...it's considerably more pleasant than some of the stuff we could be using! I do use it as an "only finish" on decorative items; usually with wax, but you are correct in that by itself, it doesn't offer a whole lot of protection in some sense of the word. But then again, makers like Thos Moser use it exclusively on high-end stuff. I've seen his work in college libraries and it's held up extraordinarily well. Go figure!

[Chris Padilla]

Jim,

I think if the piece is an indoor item not used or touched much that BLO would be fine. Heck, probably no finish would be fine--au naturel!

I think the key for most stuff is the wood itself (tree, how cut, how dried) and then the joinery. If you have a good cut of tree, dried correctly, and then put together correctly...I bet it would last quite a while with BLO as long as it's out of the elements of mother nature (save ourselves). Heck, the oils from our hands might help, too.

Perhaps we should work on a hand (human) oil finish?? :D

"Yeah, I just rubbed it down with some HO...looks good, huh?" :)

[Donnie Raines]

Might I ask when you are going to start producing HO??

Where could i find some HO?


....ok....I dont think we will see that one any time real soon.... :D :D


DonnieR

[Chris Padilla]

Hey, Donnie...I'll invite you over for dinner...I should have some HO later that night.

:D

Does anyone know you or will miss you?? :D

[Jim Becker]

I think if the piece is an indoor item not used or touched much that BLO would be fine. Heck, probably no finish would be fine--au naturel!

I think the key for most stuff is the wood itself (tree, how cut, how dried) and then the joinery. If you have a good cut of tree, dried correctly, and then put together correctly...I bet it would last quite a while with BLO as long as it's out of the elements of mother nature (save ourselves). Heck, the oils from our hands might help, too.

This is a very interesting discussion, given that sometimes things are not what one would expect in the larger view.

Back in about 1998, I built LOML a cherry desk. Not "knowing any better", I finished it with BLO and wax...specifically T&T. It still looks great and it does get "handled" quite a bit. Some other things that I've used this finish also have developed a nice patina. On the other hand, the teak table we generally eat our meals off of has a "durable" poly finish on it...and every scratch shows up in the light. The desk has scratches, but they don't show up without careful examination. Yes, it's a different application and a lot more water gets on that eating table; hence, the poly is appropriate, but it often makes me wonder!

Then look at some of the old furniture that were finished with milk paint "sealed" with BLO...pretty awesome about how much of it has held up.

I think than we all sometimes set some pretty high expectations on finishes...demanding that they get no scratches, dings or dents from even normal use. We slather them with all kinds of stuff that is very durable. And maybe we are correct to do that for our kitchen tables, etc., especially when kids and their "modern" metal toys are concerned.

The question is...do we really need to do that? Do we have to put Polyurethane varnish on everything we build? (The big-box stores would certainly lead you to believe that!) Why not let the wood develop a natural patina from use, just as our ancestors did, both out of necessity and out of different expectations? Maybe BLO and shellac is a better idea than the fancy stuff...

[Mark Kelly]

I am still wondering...does a shellac finish "repel" water like a polyurethane varnish?

I ask because I have a tray that I built and finished it with mineral oil. However, sometimes it is put down on something wet (usually by accident) and I was thinking of finishing the bottom with shellac.

[Jim Becker]

I am still wondering...does a shellac finish "repel" water like a polyurethane varnish?

Shellac is an excellent moisture barrier, but not great with repelling "real water". It will for a short period of time, but not as well as some other finishes. Rather than put a film finish on the bottom of your piece, consider putting something that raises it up off the surface slightly, such as thin rubber buttons. Putting a film finish on one side could cause the piece to distort from uneven moisture flow.

[Mark Kelly]

I never thought of that. I was also considering finishing the whole thing in shellac, but I have decided that yet. I need to test some shellac on some scrap first to see how it looks.

[Jim Becker]

I never thought of that. I was also considering finishing the whole thing in shellac, but I have decided that yet. I need to test some shellac on some scrap first to see how it looks.

I finish about half my turnings with shellac...but they don't get anything wet around them.

[Chris Padilla]

This is a very interesting discussion, given that sometimes things are not what one would expect in the larger view.

Back in about 1998, I built LOML a cherry desk. Not "knowing any better", I finished it with BLO and wax...specifically T&T. It still looks great and it does get "handled" quite a bit. Some other things that I've used this finish also have developed a nice patina. On the other hand, the teak table we generally eat our meals off of has a "durable" poly finish on it...and every scratch shows up in the light. The desk has scratches, but they don't show up without careful examination. Yes, it's a different application and a lot more water gets on that eating table; hence, the poly is appropriate, but it often makes me wonder!

Then look at some of the old furniture that were finished with milk paint "sealed" with BLO...pretty awesome about how much of it has held up.

I think than we all sometimes set some pretty high expectations on finishes...demanding that they get no scratches, dings or dents from even normal use. We slather them with all kinds of stuff that is very durable. And maybe we are correct to do that for our kitchen tables, etc., especially when kids and their "modern" metal toys are concerned.

The question is...do we really need to do that? Do we have to put Polyurethane varnish on everything we build? (The big-box stores would certainly lead you to believe that!) Why not let the wood develop a natural patina from use, just as our ancestors did, both out of necessity and out of different expectations? Maybe BLO and shellac is a better idea than the fancy stuff...

I think you are onto something, Jim. I think the main reason I use an oil/varnish (Velvit Oil) is that it is super easy to apply (no dust-free, level 10 clean room needed), and even easier to repair or touch-up in the future.

Yeah, it can get scratched easily but is easy to fix.

I have yet to build anything that gets high use like a kitchen table (although it is on The List) so I'm not sure how I'll feel when I get there. I think there is something endearing about a table lasting your kid's years and developing the dents/dings over time along with any patina (fancy word for discolrations! :) ) it might get. Heck, you could look at a ring from cereal bowl from yesteryear when your kid was 3 and banging it around or drippng milk all over the place. That might be kind of cool.

[Tom Scott]

Following up on Moser using BLO only...does anyone know how many coats he will use on his pieces? I've never seen in any of his literature where he says this. Just wondering.

Tom

[Chris Padilla]

In Bob Flexner's book, he shows a piece of wood proped inside a jar with BLO in the bottom. You can clearly see the wood wicking up the oil all the way to the top (end-grain, of course). He mentioned that this doesn't protect any better than if you just applied it to the surface. It simply doesn't matter how much the oil penetrates...oil just isn't a durable finish for wood (straight oil like BLO, tung, etc.).

However, I am not answering your direct question...just kind of side-stepping around it in the bushes.... :) I'm not sure BLO builds up at all...straight oil doesn't work that way.

[Jim Becker]

Following up on Moser using BLO only...does anyone know how many coats he will use on his pieces? I've never seen in any of his literature where he says this. Just wondering.

His latest book only eludes to multiple coats applied at 130º. I've used the heating method and it does soak in faster that way.


I'm not sure BLO builds up at all...straight oil doesn't work that way.

BLO is a drying oil and it will build, but not like a varnish will. When I only am using it to enhance the wood, I only put on one coat. If it's "the finish", then I put between two and five applications on, depending on the wood.

[Steven Wilson]

The question is...do we really need to do that? Do we have to put Polyurethane varnish on everything we build? (The big-box stores would certainly lead you to believe that!) Why not let the wood develop a natural patina from use, just as our ancestors did, both out of necessity and out of different expectations? Maybe BLO and shellac is a better idea than the fancy stuff...

Well the answer is of course, No. My default film finish is shellac, then lacquer, then varnish, then poly. I find that most things do just fine with shellac. Shellac, when properly applied, handles most spills well be it beer, wine, wiskey, or water. If damaged shellac is easy to repair, often only needing a wipe with an alcohol dampend rag to fix the film. If your building a real nice table then don't you use a table cloth or some other protection when in use? If you do then shellac is good for table tops. Of course there are somethings that shellac isn't appropriate for but that's the minority. There are other finishes that look good too, even poly. One I really like is Milk paint sealed with BLO and then topped with the GF wiping poly - looks terific. I could never by into the idea of finishing everything with Minwax poly or Watco (no knock on Minwax or Watco, they're both fine), it's too easy to go that route and if I wanted easy I would just buy furniture and not make it.

[Jeff Skory]

Mark, since the subject seems to be centering primarily around BLO I have to give you the obligatory warning in case you are not familiar with this finish.

BLO left on rags or paper towels can self-combust if left balled up. When you are finished you should either hang them outside to dry (away from the house) or put them in a sealed metal container that has some water in it (e.g. a paint can).

So far I like the way both BLO and Velvit Oil help bring out the grain in the wood. Fun stuff.

[Jeff Skory]

Jim and Chris,

You guys have gotta be some of the greatest teachers on this site. Thank you for sharing so much knowledge. :)