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jason lambert
03-27-2008, 3:04 PM
I decided to get a Onide because so many people like them here. The sales rep told me to draw out my shop I spen allot of time measuring and drawing it up in viseo with equipnment and everthing and duct work runs, gates, measurments etc. Sent it to him and he was useless. He said they could not use it to send me the ductwork I needed. I then offere to pay the $200 fee. here is what I sent them, i just want to make sure if I pay the fee they dothe job right:

"If you charge me the $200 fee will you design all the ductwork to work and also be responsible if it doesn’t fit and swap the part out with the correct parts that fits? I am worried about this since I have so many ceiling obstacles to go around and under."

here is what they came back with:

We cannot do this, please see attach memo.

The process is we generate a CAD drawing and you check it over to make sure it will fit in your shop, we will do up to 2 revisions for free.

Many people order one of the hook up kits I mention (copy attached), they are $ 442.21when ordered with the system.

They then order incidental parts to configure it as you go.

All of our Snap lock Ductwork orders over $100.00 we pay the shipping, we charge $8.50 for any orders less than that.

Please give me a call if you would like to go this route.

Thanks,
Leslie (Les) F. Switzer

So what the heck will they charge me the $200 for if they will not stand behind there work or parts they are going to send. Also if they send stuff that does not work they will charge me a 25% restocking fee. I'm sorry but if you are charging me to do a layout you should stand behind it! If it takes 30 times to get it right they should do it not just say we will give it 2 shots and then take your money. I understand if it is a problem with the lay out I sent them it is on me but I am finding them pretty useless overall and not willing to stand behind there designs or ductwork. I am willing to buy there ductwork but I don't know what I am doing and may order extra stuff put it together and send back anything I don't use but with the 25% restocking I can't do this.

Matt Meiser
03-27-2008, 3:29 PM
Working in consulting I can see where they are coming from. They are relying on you to give them completely correct information (in 3-D) which they cannot verify. Doing it over 30 times costs them money in the form of time. If they make mistakes, I'd certainly expect them to fix them. If the mistakes are your fault, I wouldn't. The problem is there's a gray area--what if they interpret your information differently than you intend. Neither of you was "wrong" in that case. Who pays then? We call this scope creep. Their $200 isn't more than a few hours of a designer's time in consulting. If their staff are engineers, its less than that. Figure it takes them an hour or two for the first revision, that doesn't leave much time for modifications.

If you wanted a guaranteed design, you'd need an engineer/designer to come out and survey the existing conditions (typically you'd be paying for travel time and costs) and they would spend the time to get accurate measurements. Then there would be inevitable unforseen conditions, which they would account for by adding a contingency to the cost. Or they'd just charge you on an hourly basis--you'd pay for whatever hours it took to do the job right. And you'd still end up in a gray area. Did something not fit right because it wasn't installed exactly to plan? Did you have small cumulative errors that put a fitting off by a couple inches at the end of a long run? Or was it a design error?

jason lambert
03-27-2008, 3:39 PM
My main problem is that if there design is wrong and it is clearly there fault I am totally responable to return the parts, pay shipping and restocking. They should at least wave the 25% restocking fees that is reduculas I hate companies that charge "restocking fees". It is really tuff to walk that part back and put it on a shelf. You figure three mark up is 100% so if they sell it to you and you return it they get 50% of the cost of the item back for doing noting. I can see if it is a specal order but this si stock stuff.

Shawn Honeychurch
03-27-2008, 3:52 PM
I think maybe you are over reacting a bit here. ;)

They only reason I can see for them not using your drawings and measurements is that they want to charge you for using their service, not at all unexpected. It is one way they make money and it also removes the problem of interpretation between your drawing and themselves. However only 2 revisions seems pretty cheap on their part to me.

I do understand them saying that once they create the layout it is your responsibility to verify it is correct. I don't think they are saying they won't stand behind there work, I think they are saying that you must stand behind your approval of their drawing (CAD). If they draw it out, and you say, this is good to go, then if things don't fit that is on your shoulders not their's.

Assuming you provide the correct info, and fully review there CAD drawings, then there should be no issue, I would assume that the CAD drawing will also include a parts list of everything needed to make what is drawn work. If that is OK, then you should be fine.

I would ask then to base their CAD drawings on your drawings which you know are correct and accurate, then check very carefully to make sure what they create matches what you sent them, and make sure the parts order list matches, and the go for it.

Shawn

Steven Wilson
03-27-2008, 4:00 PM
Jason, if you've taken the time to do the layouts then you should be able to work out the bill of materials and send in an order. If you pay them to do the duct design (which will include a bill of materials that probably won't be perfect) then they will probably use your drawing as a base but they'll use their own objects (elboes, wyes, etc) to generate the BOM with. If you want pefection then hire someone local to come to your shop, measure, estimate, and then install your ductwork. Add a couple of zero's to the $200 Oneida charges.

You should get fairly close on the number and sizes of wyes, elboes, blast gates, etc. You can always under order and then put in a suplemental order to finish things off. Or slightly over order and either return unneeded material or keep it around for the changes you make to your system in the upcoming years. You will have some wasteage in a project like this so plan on it.

bob cohen
03-27-2008, 7:12 PM
Hi Jason, You've mentioned several times that yours is a complicated install due to many ceiling obstacles, etc. Its hard to know what you mean without seeing pictures, but is it possible to run the duct work along the wall, or suspend it sufficiently far down from the ceiling to allow for a relatively straight run? All of the elbows will not only add to the cost and create design headaches, but also complicate installation and decrease airflow/performance.

Depending on where you live, you might be able to hire a HVAC contractor to plan and install the ductwork at a reasonable price. Even if the contractor turns out to be too expensive, you might be able to probe him/her for useful design ideas. On ethical grounds, though, I would not call someone out to the house, if I new in advance I would not sign them on.

Good luck and remember at some point this will all be behind you and you will be able to take great satisfaction in having a clean and healthy shop.

jason lambert
03-28-2008, 4:23 PM
the trouble is I do have a bunch of turns and I need to stay on the celing since it is only 7'3 high to drop it I would just be banging my head more. Anyhow I went to a hvac duct place that someone here sugested and they have flexable pipe. I think I will be using a mix of 26guage duct work and 6" flex pipe to make nice long curves.

Matt Meiser
03-28-2008, 5:07 PM
Is that flex smooth on the inside? You are going to seriously hurt your performance if it is like the flex pipe I've seen.

jason lambert
03-28-2008, 5:24 PM
it is almost totally smooth. It is like smooth pvc flex tubing and then metal wraped around it then coated over, kind of cool stuff not cheap but looks like it may solve lots of problems.

Matt Meiser
03-28-2008, 5:27 PM
Sounds like a good problem solver--please post pics and more information when you get some.

Mark Engel
03-28-2008, 5:33 PM
Grizzly sells a flexible metal pipe that would probably work as well as the SpiraTube. Plus, if your whole system is metal, using metal flex pipe would insure that the system is fully grounded for static discharge without having to run extra wires to jump the SpiraTube. If you care about such things. ;)

I don't know how well Grizzly's price compares to the SpiraTube pricing.

Dwayne Watt
03-30-2008, 7:11 PM
There is a lot of ranting going on is this and other similar posts regarding Oneida. I find this very disappointing. That said, if the layout is already completed the way you believe is best, then any alternatives may not be readily accepted irregardless of source (commercial layouts or internet advice). Calculating the proper size and geometry of the ducting is not terribly difficult. There is a lot of sizing information and spreadsheet calculators available for no charge on the net. You can verify that your solution is reasonably efficient with those engineering tools and move ahead. If one is not comfortable with the tools or concepts of velocity and pressure drop, then paying someone to do the design work is cheap piece of mind.

My solution to minimizing steel ductwork and, more important, total equivalent length of duct (eg, pressure drop) was to mount the cyclone roughly midway along the shop wall and connect it to a ductwork manifold along the length of that wall roughly 40" off of the floor. All my tools move out into the middle of the shop during projects and push back along the wall at other times. Rather than try to drop flex hose from a 10 ft tall ceiling network of piping, I have relatively short runs of flex hose which run out from the side wall. These are slightly longer than ceiling drops, but the longest length of steel duct is roughly 10 feet from the cyclone plus a couple of wyes and/or elbows. My calculations indicated that I easily maintained target air velocities and pressure drops. The cleanliness of the shop indicates I was reasonably correct. The shop is much, much cleaner. Most importantly I no longer have any appreciable amounts of dust entering me! No more coughing after working all day in the shop.

In any event, I wish you the best of good fortune with whatever system you ultimately put together.