Table saw or...?

[Niels J. Larsen]

I'm having problems making 100% parallel cuts using my Festool TS55EQ and my Festool table.

The reason being that the piece isn't large enough to get a proper "seating" against the table fence and since the perpendicular faces are cut at an angle they will "rise" up from the table if I try to use the festool stops as a fence.

I'm thinking that I need a table saw to make the above operation as easy as possible, BUT:

- I do NOT have enough space for a *real* table saw the size of what you usually call a cabinet saw.

- I've been looking at saws of the same type as e.g. the DeWalt DW744, but I'm not sure these will give me the repeatable accuracy I want.

So - finally to the question:

Can I get a proper accurate cut using a saw like the DeWalt DW744 or the Bosch equivalent (or another brand but available here in Europe) or will I just end up spending a lot of money and still be disappointed?

[Roger Lance]

Niels...when you say that you are attempting to make a cut on a piece that is not big enough to ride in a safe way between blade and some make shift fence, big alarms of danger should be going off in your head. This sounds like a bad thing in the offing. Generally when small pieces are to be produced on a tablesaw, the safe way is to make them on a larger board that is then cut to produce the final item. Find a friend with a tablesaw and get his help...be safe...verstehen zie.

[Lance Norris]

Consider a bandsaw.

[Chris Sedore]

I have the DW744. I love the fence (it simply does not move, unlike any other fence I checked on saws of this type). My woodworking skills are not adequate to give you a professional read on the saw, but I've been able to get square cuts, resaw 8/4 cherry into face frame pieces, and slice 2" wide 3/8" thick slices off doug fir--my inexpensive caliper says they're very consistent. You'll want to invest in a good blade that matches your work (I use a Freud thin kerf ripping blade for the cherry, for example).

[JayStPeter]

I have some simple jigs that position a rail (not using the MFT) so they are parallel. Cuts thinner than the rail width are another story and I personally use my table saw for that. But if you don't want to buy a TS, check out festoolownersgroup.com. There are lots of people there that use their Festools for everything and have developed methods for cutting smaller pieces parallel. The fence is going to be the key component on those small table saws.

Jay

[Niels J. Larsen]

Niels...when you say that you are attempting to make a cut on a piece that is not big enough to ride in a safe way between blade and some make shift fence, big alarms of danger should be going off in your head. This sounds like a bad thing in the offing. Generally when small pieces are to be produced on a tablesaw, the safe way is to make them on a larger board that is then cut to produce the final item. Find a friend with a tablesaw and get his help...be safe...verstehen zie.

Roger, I think you're misunderstanding me. I never said the piece wasn't big enough, I said the piece was cut at angles that made it impossible to stay at 90 degrees. Also the piece is lying under a Festool guide rail and held into position with guide block which all would protect against a possible kickback.

My problem is that since the piece is cut at angles it can move a few milimeters when I push it into the fence and guide blocks and that causes inaccuracy.

Perhaps I'm just not able to explain this properly, but trust me - I'm not doing anything that could harm me.

[Niels J. Larsen]

Consider a bandsaw.

I already own a bandsaw, but I need a cut good enough to perform glue-up straight away.

[Michael Wildt]

Hej Niels,

I'm with Jay, sounds like you could make a little jig to hold the pieces in place. If you post a picture it may be easier to propose ideas as well.

Haaber foraaret snart er paa vej derhjemme.

Hyg,
Michael

[J. Z. Guest]

Niels, for making parallel cuts, nothing can rival a table saw.

Can you get the Ridgid TS2400 table saw in Europe? It is not a toy, like many of the smaller/cheaper ones. I have this one and am quite happy with it. The motor has soft start, the fence is very consistent, the built-in ruler is 100% reliable, and the overall design is intuitive & ergonomic.

The new Bosch would probably be more available and is also well-liked.

These saws that can be folded down and stored in the corner make proper woodworking realistic, even in a small shop. It should be an easy decision too, as there aren't too many good jobsite saws out there. Make sure you get one which has wheels on the stand.

I had the same problem you do before I got a table saw. I wasn't even using such a nice circular saw; just a regular old 13 A, 7-1/4" Makita with 8' edge guide.

[Niels J. Larsen]

Niels, for making parallel cuts, nothing can rival a table saw.

Can you get the Ridgid TS2400 table saw in Europe? It is not a toy, like many of the smaller/cheaper ones. I have this one and am quite happy with it. The motor has soft start, the fence is very consistent, the built-in ruler is 100% reliable, and the overall design is intuitive & ergonomic.


Does the fence lock down both in front and in the back as on the DeWalt DW744? I have no experience, but I would assume that if it's only locked down in the front it could flex slightly?

[J. Z. Guest]

Does the fence lock down both in front and in the back as on the DeWalt DW744? I have no experience, but I would assume that if it's only locked down in the front it could flex slightly?

Yes, it locks down front & rear. This is not always a good thing, but if it is executed well, it is.

The higher-end fences usually only lock in the front, but they have one huge lock and a VERY sturdy front rail. (Biesemeyer is like this) It also has to be a very heavy & rigid fence so tha it doesn't flex out of square when you're pushing sideways against it.

But the Bosch & Ridgid both have very good front/rear locking mechanisms.

For me, the only thing that has not stayed in perfect alignment on my TS2400 is the splitter. I don't know how it is always getting out of whack, as I treat it gently, but when I'm getting burning problems, it is always from one of three things:

1) Pitch build-up on one side of the carbide teeth
2) Splitter is out of line
3) I'm lazy and am using a general purpose blade on stock thicker than one inch

The new Bosch has a riving knife as opposed to a traditional (in the US) splitter, so this may not be a problem.

There's also a new Makita jobsite saw out that looks nice, but I haven't seen one in person. I believe a newer member here just bought one...

Just make sure that if you get a front/rear locking fence saw, that you find out that it locks square every time. In a good design of this time, the first thing that happens when you pull the lock down is that the fence is pulled square. Then, the front locks, and finally, the rear. Make sure that when the rear locks, it isn't pulling the fence out of square. (cheaper saws have this; like the $100 Skil & "Tool Shop" models)

[Niels J. Larsen]

Jeremy: Thanks for your info - that was exactly what I was after!

Unfortunately for me, the Ridgid table saws are not available here in Europe as they only make them in 120V versions and we use 230V....

I guess the saws for me to choose from seems like the Bosch (4000?) which won't be available here until the fall and the DeWalt DW744.

I will look into the Makita thing, but for me Makita has always given me the "cheapo" feeling. Don't have any valid proofs for it - it's just a feeling :rolleyes: Oh well.

[J. Z. Guest]

I guess the saws for me to choose from seems like the Bosch (4000?) which won't be available here until the fall and the DeWalt DW744.

I believe the DeWalt DW744 is the older, larger model, with the rack & pinion fence and floor stand. But the stand doesn't have wheels, which seems to defeat the whole point of a portable saw. Here (http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B000HXT2MW/ref=sr_1_2_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1) are the amazon user reviews on the DW744. Not as high as the Bosch's.

The DW745 is the latest model of that line over here, and it is so small, it doesn't even have a stand. But it is only 40 lbs. (18 kg)
Here are the amazon user reviews on the DW745 (http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B000HXT2N6/ref=sr_1_8_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1)


I will look into the Makita thing, but for me Makita has always given me the "cheapo" feeling. Don't have any valid proofs for it - it's just a feeling :rolleyes: Oh well.

I had the older model Makita jobsite saw, and it was indeed cheap, especially the fence; it would not stay parallel no matter how hard I tried.

The DeWalt, I ruled out because I didn't see how they keep the fence parallel; it seems solely dependent on the locations of the toothed racks.

I was very close to buying the (older) Bosch jobsite saw, but read some user reviews on Amazon saying that the table or fence weren't perfectly flat. I believe Bosch eventually fixed it, and almost certainly will have fixed it on the new model.

The new model Bosch (in the US) also has better safety features; easily removable and not in the way as much. Though I think the European models always had these European-style guards. The new Bosch model I'm referring to is the 4100. The 4000 is the older one. Here (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/articledisplay?id=14856) is quick write-up from Popular Woodworking magazine that says it is one of the top tools of 2007. Here (http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B000S5S5CW/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1) are the amazon user reviews of the bosch 4100, which seem very good overall.

As you can tell, I like those user reviews, as it gives a good spectrum of opinions. Lots of them aren't woodworkers and don't have a clue. A lot of them are carpenters, who DO have a clue, but have different requirements. The woodworkers usually write the most critical reviews, but nearly every review, due to the different points of view & levels of education, has something to offer.

[J. Z. Guest]

Here's one of those critical reviews I was talking about, on the DW745:

This saw was exactly what I was looking for. Big power good precision in a small package. I have limited real estate in my shop for tools. A saw that would fit on the shelf was exactly what I wanted.

Only this saw was to be my ONLY table saw. After much reading about the limitations, I decided to accept the additional clutter that a larger job site wheeled saw would take up. So I returned the Dewalt and bought the Ridgid TS2400.

I did however become intimately aquainted with the features of this saw. Here are a few of the pros and cons.

PROS

- Small footprint and lightweight. Thumbs up to DeWalt for recognizing the need for this type of tool.

- Rack and pinion rip fence. This was one of the top features that drew me to this saw.

- There are nice places to store the cord and the included plastic push stick.

- Big power

- Plenty of precision.

- Matches my other tools

CONS

- I know DeWalt was going for "light weight", but it came off as "cheap"

- The miter slots were not T-slots, just straight slots.

- There are no T-slots on the rip fence.

- Probably a side effect of being so light weight, but the saw will not accept dado blades. The best I can guess is because of safety reasons DeWalt installed a short arbor. You can probably imagine the whole saw flying backwards and slicing your buddy in two if you tried.

- The safety guard is a real pain to install and uninstall. Particularly annoying when you plan to store the thing on a shelf that requires you to install and uninstall the thing every time you want to use it.

- The miter guage is a joke.

- The safety guard must be removed to make a bevel cut at 45 deg. Another pain.

- To bevel the blade to 45 deg you have to support the weight of the motor, trunion, ...all the guts... with the knob that adjusts blade height, which feels as if it will break at any moment.

- The bevel lock is cheap. I thought that someone was just rough with the one in the store. My brand new bevel lock felt like it was going to fall off.

- There is no lock for the blade height. On my first test cut the blade moved during the cut.

- There is no place to store the fence, guard, and miter guage.

- The saw must be stored side ways on a shelf that isn't quite wide enough to accomodate the saw due to the feet being front and back and the middle practically void. The handles are on the sides, so to put it on the shelf you're forced to put your hands in the front and back on the rack gear...not so comfortable.

- In the rip fence there was about a 32nd of slop in the bushings that held the pinion drive to the table top. This allowed the two sides of the fence to wobble in and out independent of each other. Potentially this could translate into the fence being out of parallel by a 32nd. In the noise I know, but it is disheartening when this is one of the main features why I bought the saw. Why not install bearings, and give people that extra sense of security?

- The motor mounts had about a 32nd of slop in them.

SUMMARY

I hope I'm not being too critical here. Like I said, this is the saw that I wanted. If I were to have two saws, this would be my choice. But I can't have two saws, so I returned it. I bought a competitors saw that includes a stand. It takes up a bit more real estate than the DeWalt, but it can do everything a full sized stationary can do. I guess I'll have to live with the clutter. Nice try DeWalt, maybe next time.

The ability to use a dado set was huge for me, so this was good to read. You might look into that for the Bosch and DeWalt that you're considering.

[Niels J. Larsen]

Jeremy: The list seems to get shorter and shorter for every post you write! :)

Looks like the only saw left for me is the Bosch 4100 which is the one that will hopefully be available here sometime this fall.

Too bad I will have to wait that long...

Oh well - thanks for all your information!

[J. Z. Guest]

Jeremy: The list seems to get shorter and shorter for every post you write! :)

Looks like the only saw left for me is the Bosch 4100 which is the one that will hopefully be available here sometime this fall.

Too bad I will have to wait that long...

Who said anything about waiting that long? You might be able to get it sooner by ordering it from Germany or elsewhere in Europe.

On the other hand, since the raves here are all about the "European guard system" it seems likely to me that the Bosch 4000 in Europe already had that or something very similar to it. It's worth looking into a bit more deeply.

I'm a member over at www.rcgroups.com (http://www.rcgroups.com), and there was one German dude that finally broke down & ordered a spread spectrum radio from the US because it was going to take so much longer to get to Germany. Even then, a year or two ago, our dollar was so weak, he actually came out ahead. Granted, shipping on a RC transmitter will be much less than on a 40 kg table saw...

[Glenwood Morris]

If you are in europe why not consider some of Metabo's offerings for small saws, or search ebay for a used inca 250.

[Michael Wildt]

I have the Bosch 4001 on the rapid rise stand and it is very good. I replaced the blade with a freud blade. Cuts great. The last project involved 2.75" thick hard maple which it handled with no problem. I invested in the on-board supports. With limited space it fits the bill perfectly.

Michael

[Tom Esh]

...Looks like the only saw left for me is the Bosch 4100...

I have last year's version of it. It really is an excellent saw. Loads of power, decent fence, and the stand is superb. Dust collection is also excellent if you hook up a vac or DC to the port on the blade shroud.

One minor annoyance I have with it is the miter slots. It's certainly not enough to make me regret buying the saw or contemplate replacing it anytime soon, but the slots are cast with the top, not machined. As a result they're just a tad sloppy, probably to prevent casting variances causing the miter bar to bind. I bought an Incra miter gauge with those "snugness" adjusters. It helped, but I still have to live with a few thou of play at the front of the slot to avoid binding at the rear. I've not seen one of the new models on display anywhere, so I don't know if the slot design is the same.

[howard s hanger]

you might also want to post this question on the FOG (http://www.festoolownersgroup.com) Festool Owners Group. There are a lot of guys out there with great ideas on how to get the most out of your TS55. That site has cost me a lot of $$$! :)

Howard

[Niels J. Larsen]

Who said anything about waiting that long? You might be able to get it sooner by ordering it from Germany or elsewhere in Europe.

On the other hand, since the raves here are all about the "European guard system" it seems likely to me that the Bosch 4000 in Europe already had that or something very similar to it. It's worth looking into a bit more deeply.


Nope - it's not available anywhere in Europe :(

The European Guard System is on *every* saw on the market - AFAIK it's required by law. What I think what you mean is the "Smart-Guard" that's on the new saw and makes it able for the user to take it off and on without tools etc. I'm unsure if the 4000 (or GTS 10 which it's called here) has that.

I've read about that the 4100 has a new digital fence which should make it even more accurate. Whether that's actually true is another story.

[John Browne]

you might also want to post this question on the FOG (http://www.festoolownersgroup.com) Festool Owners Group. There are a lot of guys out there with great ideas on how to get the most out of your TS55. That site has cost me a lot of $$$! :)

Howard

I second that--not trying to talk you out of a TS (I love mine!) but in the meantime, that TS-55 is capable of perfect cuts, you just need a better jig to hold the workpiece stationary. I've seen some posts on FOG I think about using a piece under the rail clamped 90 degrees to the fence. There's a recent thread about just using the holes in the MFT and not using the fence at all--there are a lot of interesting ideas in that thread.

[Niels J. Larsen]

Thanks (all) for your suggestions about the FOG and using the TS55 for the cuts, but I was after opinions about small tablesaws and their accuracy.

I'm not trying to say that the cuts are impossible to make using the TS55, just that I'm looking for another solution.

For now it looks like the Bosch 4100 with the digital readout is the right choice for me. Unfortunately that won't be available here until late this year - hopefully.

I could of course buy the Bosch 4000 now, but there are too many things about the 4100 that makes it better for me in the long run, so I'll just have to wait.