Dovetail saw options-HELP!

[David Shively]

Alright I am going to buy a nice dovetail saw-I have had enough of my 10" crown gent saw. I was hoping to get some options from all the experts out there. I have looked at lie-nielsen, gramercy, adria, wenzloff so far-The wenzloff is out of stock and long wait so that kinda outs that one. The lie-nielsen is nice but also very common and I like being a little different. The gramercy is just too small-I have very large hands and it isn't comfortable for me-and I have no experience with the Adria. I e mailed Ed from Oakville and haven't heard back yet but I know everyone speaks highly of his saws. OH and PAX is NOT AN OPTION--I think most of you know whyhttp://www.canadianwoodworking.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif. So what am I missing-any other options and or opinions out there? Thanks Guys look forward to hearing what you come up with. ALSO NO JAPANESE SAWS-I don't like them and there are a lot of excellent western saw choices now.

[Mark Stutz]

David,
If you've not held the Grammercy in your hand, don't exclude it. I too have pretty fair sized hands, and the Grammercy was love at first cut. IIRC, Joel will take it back no questions asked if you don't like it. It cuts every bit as nice as the W&S and I like it better than the Adria. If there is a drawback, it is that it is only a DT saw...too small to use for most other joinery.

Mark

[Dale Osowski]

Have you thought about a rip Dozuki?

[Jim Becker]

I have the Adria and have been very pleased with it. I had to learn to "start" it, but that's pretty comfortable now. It cuts like a dream...

[Phillip Pattee]

It seems like you have named all the best of current makers. Lief Hansen at Norsewoodsmith might have a saw you would like. Your other option is to find a vintage saw. Disston, Richardson, Tyzak, etc.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Have you thought about a rip Dozuki?"

Coulda sworn those were Japanese.... Did you miss something in the OP's post?

;)
YM

[Stephen Jackson]

".........PAX is NOT AN OPTION"

David, just out of curiosity. What is it that you don't like about PAX? I have a PAX backsaw, but I don't have the experience to know the "niceties" of one make vs another. I'm interested to know your (and others) observations, for when I consider my next purchase.

[Johnny Kleso]

I think Ed had an illness in his family..
I not sure if Leif is making saws I made the saw screws for him and Ed.. You can also try Tim Hoff..

I would wait for Mike, Leif, Ed or Tim as I dont think any other the other would scratch that itch..

As far as buying a vintage saw I have some Tyzack's and Disstons but unless yor ready to learn how to sharpen a very fine pitch saw buy new..

Fine pitch saws are the hardest to sharpen..
You can fine minty Tyzack's that WC sold in the 70s on eBay then you could send it off to Cook's or someone to sharpen as another choice..

Here is some great reading on the history of Tyzack, Turner & Sons
http://www.tilthammer.com/bio/tyzac.html

You can find them minty for about $60 on eBay

[Dale Osowski]

"Have you thought about a rip Dozuki?"

Coulda sworn those were Japanese.... Did you miss something in the OP's post?

;)
YM


Ooops, I missed that.

[Martin Shupe]

Have you tried the new LN progressive pitch DT saw? I did recently, and it cuts like a dream.

Wenzloff saws are well worth the wait, however long it may be.

[David Shively]

".........PAX is NOT AN OPTION"

David, just out of curiosity. What is it that you don't like about PAX? I have a PAX backsaw, but I don't have the experience to know the "niceties" of one make vs another. I'm interested to know your (and others) observations, for when I consider my next purchase.



Stephen,

Here is my deal with PAX:*of course opinion and not all factors affect usability*1-The handle is a mess-it is ugly, uncomfortable and not shaped properly. 2-price to quality ratio is not there, for the same price you can buy one of Ed's Medallion saws and get a much nicer hand set saw. 3-cutting characteristics-its neither as fast, nor smooth or easy to start as any of the other choices. Lastly in my opinion it is one of those saws that tend to cause people to buy japanese saws-when you pay a hundred bucks for a saw that can't cut half as good as a $20-$30 rip dozuki

[Don Dorn]

I have a friend who has the Lie Nielsen and it is definately a nice saw. I had a gents saw like you and had had enough of it too. Then, I bought the handtool video by Frank Klausz and paid attention to the part on saw sharpening. I didn't have anything to lose so I clamped it up, properly prepared it and now just love it. It cuts through even harder woods like butter. While the Lie Nielson is a beautiful saw, even my friend admits that mine cuts a very thin kerf as quickly, or slightly quicker than his does. There is very little evidence on the backside of the cut (unlike before) but then, there is a little with his saw too. Really, all I'm lacking is the style points.

[Robert Rozaieski]

I agree with Don. Sharpen that Crown correctly for dovetailing and there's no reason it shouldn't work as well as the premium saws. The problem with most cheap saws is that the teeth are stamped in and they are filed and set improperly (by a machine set up by a guy who doesn't use handsaws). Not to mention the crappy squarish handles. That Crown saw comes sharpened with a crosscut tooth. Worthless for dovetailing. And it probably has too much set as well. Refile the teeth to rip and just put minimal set on the teeth and it should cut much better.

I bought a cheap dovetail saw years ago (Paragon brand). The handle was square and uncomfortable, the teeth were sharpened wrong and had to much set. I sent it out (I do it myself now that I've found out how easy it is) and had it refiled rip with minimal set and then reshaped the handle with rasps and files. It's now one of my favorite saws. It will cut beautiful dovetails like a dream all day long.

If you are not comfortable re-filing it yourself, send it out and have it done for $25. However, at the price of the saw, why not take a shot at learning to sharpen it yourself. All you need is a saw file and set. You have nothing to lose but a saw that doesn't work right. If you muck it up you're only out a $5 file and an antique saw set you can easily resell for what you paid. If you still decide it's not worth your time and effort, send it to me, I'll put it out of its misery for you ;) !

[Rob Luter]

Hi David -

I've been in the same boat as you, and have explored a few alternatives that I'll share. I also have big hands.

I fumbled around with a couple of vintage back saws with limited success. I bought a mid priced Rip Dozuki thinking that would be the ticket. It works ok but is tough for me to keep on line. After getting a couple of my vintage Disston bench saws sharpened by someone skilled in the art I came to the realization that the set and tooth form made a huge difference. I had my back saws sharpened as well and they cut as well as I could ever hope. My current dovetail saw is an old Jackson small Tenon Saw that has been filed 13PPI Rip. I supplement this with pre 1900 Disston #4 filed 13PPI Crosscut. Both are straight and true, and each saw cost just a couple bucks. The retoothing and sharpening were the biggest costs I incurred.

I too like to be a "little different" and have never been drawn to mass market products. My approach has yielded two unique tools that are nice to look at, work well, and exude some real Mojo.

[James Mittlefehldt]

".........PAX is NOT AN OPTION"

David, just out of curiosity. What is it that you don't like about PAX? I have a PAX backsaw, but I don't have the experience to know the "niceties" of one make vs another. I'm interested to know your (and others) observations, for when I consider my next purchase.

I bought the Pax dovetail saw from Lee Valley and I like it. I have fairly large hands as well but have no issues with the handle, and it tracks well, it is miles ahead of the Japanese dovetail saw I formerly used, but then I don't get on well with them. That is doubtless more my technique, or lack therof, than anything else.

I find it puzzling why people seem so hung up about the speed of a dovetail saw, it rarely has to make more than a 3/4 inch cut, so by buying a faster saw how much time do you actually save, 1/10th of a second? What you want is one that is comfortable, TO YOU, and does the job, my Pax fits that.

Having said that however, I should add, had I known about Ed from Oakville before I bought the Pax I would have bought one of his instead, or one of Mike Wenzloff's.

[Wilbur Pan]

I find it puzzling why people seem so hung up about the speed of a dovetail saw, it rarely has to make more than a 3/4 inch cut, so by buying a faster saw how much time do you actually save, 1/10th of a second?

I completely agree with this, especially when you consider how much time you actually spend sawing, and compare that with how much time you spend tweaking the pins and tails.

Or maybe I just need to learn how to saw better when making my dovetails. ;)

I happen to like Japanese saws better than western saws, so I can't help the OP with his question too much. But I would go with whatever saw fits your hand the best.

[Jim Koepke]

I find it puzzling why people seem so hung up about the speed of a dovetail saw, it rarely has to make more than a 3/4 inch cut, so by buying a faster saw how much time do you actually save, 1/10th of a second? What you want is one that is comfortable, TO YOU, and does the job, my Pax fits that.

I am not sure about this, but does the fast cut of a saw translate into how many strokes of the saw are made for a specific cut?

If one makes one stroke to take the cut, the kerf is likely to be straighter and smoother than if 100 strokes are used to make the cut.

With 100 strokes, there are 100 chances to have a slight movement of saw, wrist, fore arm, elbow, upper arm, shoulder and body alignment.

What do you do if the phone rings half way through?

Even worse, what if the mail carrier knocks with that tool purchase for which you have been waiting?:eek:

jim

[Brian Ward]

I am not sure about this, but does the fast cut of a saw translate into how many strokes of the saw are made for a specific cut?

If one makes one stroke to take the cut, the kerf is likely to be straighter and smoother than if 100 strokes are used to make the cut.

With 100 strokes, there are 100 chances to have a slight movement of saw, wrist, fore arm, elbow, upper arm, shoulder and body alignment.


Well, the most critical part of sawing is when you start the cut. From there, if you don't hold the saw with a death grip, it does follow the kerf if you let it, and it tends to be a fairly smooth cut.

When working on a replacement saw handle, one of the more daunting parts I had to do was cut the kerf where the blade goes. I did it freehand with one of those Crown dovetail gent's saws (I had resharpened it myself; there was already enough set on it). I took an excruciatingly long time to establish the kerf, but once I did, it was a walk in the park. See attachment.

Mind you, for this particular operation, I practiced on scraps beforehand and screwed up a awful lot. The payoff was that it improved my sawing technique. I don't really like the gent's handle (and am planning to replace it), but it's not like you're trying to hold the saw with an exposed tang or something.

Making saw handles is fun.

[Circa Bellum]

If you're unhappy with the style handle on your gent's saw, I don't blame you and you should be looking around for a better saw. But if it's just the way it cuts that bothers you, I can tell you that with absolutely NO experience whatsoever, I took a twelve dollar Stanley dovetail saw that I bought at the home center, re-filed the teeth to rip and rubbed half of the set off of the teeth with an Arkansas stone and it cuts dovetails as fast and pretty as my antique Jackson dovetail saw. It was my first time to even dream of messing with a saw. So, don't be afraid to play around with the saw you've got, it's easier than you think.

And if you're wanting an excuse for a new saw, that's as easy as you want it to be too.

[Wilbur Pan]

I am not sure about this, but does the fast cut of a saw translate into how many strokes of the saw are made for a specific cut?

If one makes one stroke to take the cut, the kerf is likely to be straighter and smoother than if 100 strokes are used to make the cut.

With 100 strokes, there are 100 chances to have a slight movement of saw, wrist, fore arm, elbow, upper arm, shoulder and body alignment.


On the flip side, over a large number of strokes the random slight movements will tend to cancel each other out over the length of the cut. Whereas if you had a dovetail saw that could saw the kerf with one stroke and you are off, you're kind of stuck with a very straight cut that isn't going in the direction you wanted.

Of course, this doesn't explain why I tend to pull to the right when sawing. I'm probably just transferring my golf game to my woodworking. ;)

[David Tiell]

One thought that comes to my mind is this. Maybe you could try the Grammercy kit as in this thread http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=80399
but make the handle a bit larger to fit your own hand. I haven't tried to make a saw handle myself yet, but bought an old Disston this weekend with only half a handle for $2, so it appears I'm gonna give it a shot before too long.

[Stephen Jackson]

I've read other posts about Ed's Medallion saws. Is there a link, or other form of contact?

[Jim Koepke]

Of course, this doesn't explain why I tend to pull to the right when sawing. I'm probably just transferring my golf game to my woodworking. ;)

I do not play golf, but the page at vintage saws on setting a saw explains it thus:


The ultimate test of any set job is how well the saw cuts. Take some scrap and start a cut. The saw should glide through the wood without jumping around in its kerf. It should not be hard to push, nor should it be "roomy" in the kerf. If either of these conditions exist, increase or decrease the set accordingly. If the saw tracks away from the line, the side of the saw that is furthest from the line has too much set. A simple remedy is to lightly stone the edge of the offending side with a medium India slipstone. Take one swipe with the stone, and try another cut. Usually only one or two passes with the stone will correct the problem. Don't remove too much, however, or you'll have the same problem on the other side until not enough set is left to make the cut.

http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/frameset.cgi?left=main&right=/library/library.html

This information helped me to make straight cuts. I am not sure if the set is "perfect" for another user, but my saws are tuned for my use.

I am going to make another post at the end of the thread about Glen-Davis Toolworks. He has a free DVD and sent me an email saying it was OK to post the information on SMC.

jim

[Jim Koepke]

I saw this at the woodworker show in Oakland last month.

The saw is interesting in a few ways.

First, it has a two handed grip. They are side by side and you can see down between them to see the line and how the blade is working on it.

Second, the teeth are variable pitch, so the beginning and end teeth are not as aggressive as the teeth in the middle.

Finally, it is made to work with a kerf starter or a marking knife and the front and back of the blade do not have teeth. This is so the saw can start in the kerf and get momentum before the cutting begins.

An email was sent to Kevin Glen-Davis to see why it was not up on his web site and he said that he got so many orders he is backed up and did not want to put it up for sale on his web site before he would be able to make timely deliveries on the new orders.

Anyway, he has a free DVD offer that he said I could post here and asked me to give Popular Woodworking a plug because they have given some of his tools good reviews. Go to their web site and search on glen-davis.

So, you call and get a free DVD with demos of the products and some other interesting and some funny stuff.

If you have a cell phone or regular phone with a free long distance dialing feature, you might want to consider calling any business's non-800 number to save them a little money. Of course, in today's world that may be old phone company thinking.

Kevin Drake
Glen-Drake Toolworks
<glen-drake.com>
(707) 961-1569
(800) 961-1569

You can also see some of the products on the web site.

jim

[Jim Koepke]

When working on a replacement saw handle, one of the more daunting parts I had to do was cut the kerf where the blade goes. I did it freehand with one of those Crown dovetail gent's saws (I had resharpened it myself; there was already enough set on it). I took an excruciatingly long time to establish the kerf, but once I did, it was a walk in the park. See attachment.

Mind you, for this particular operation, I practiced on scraps beforehand and screwed up a awful lot. The payoff was that it improved my sawing technique. I don't really like the gent's handle (and am planning to replace it), but it's not like you're trying to hold the saw with an exposed tang or something.

Making saw handles is fun.

Practicing on scraps is always a good idea to make sure things are going to work as planned.

I read an article about making saw handles. It had what seemed like an easy way to cut an accurate kerf in a saw handle. First one needs a saw that will cut a kerf to the size wanted. Second, a piece of wood is trimmed to just a hair less than half the thickness of the saw handle. The saw is then clamped to the piece of wood on top of a bench in a way so the wood acts as a stop for the depth of cut. Then, the new handle is carefully run back and forth on the saw blade to cut the kerf.

I have not tried this, but it seemed like it would work and I am looking forward to giving it a try someday.

jim

[Johnny Kleso]

Steve,
I PMed you Ed's email address

[Steve Hamlin]

I don't think a small handle on a DT saw is a bad thing, as it is a precision tool, and doesn't need gripping like a cudgel nor driving like a scrub plane.

I'm contemplating replacing the totes on my bench planes at the mo, because (with a three finger grip) they're a little tight for my hands. (This of course may be that my grip is all wrong)

But I am very happy with my Wenzloff DT, which if I tried to grip in a fist would pinch my hand between the horns before my hand was more than half closed, and my Gramercy which has a very slim handle (take out the bones and I'm sure I could wrap my fingers around it a couple of times)

I find the small handles encourage me to let the saw do the work, and keep everything in line from saw tip to elbow.

Cheers
Steve

[Jim Becker]

I don't think a small handle on a DT saw is a bad thing, as it is a precision tool, and doesn't need gripping like a cudgel nor driving like a scrub plane.

I agree with this with the caveat that for some folks with large fingers, a too small handle will not allow them to grip with the "finesse" you want when doing the delicate cutting that is necessary for dovetail work, especially with very small pins. My fingers are relatively thin so I'm "comfortable" with pretty much any of the saws I've actually held in my hand as well as the Adria I own, but I've seen some pretty stout fingers out there! A comfortable grip is essential, not a tight one.

[Thom Sturgill]

I read an article about making saw handles. It had what seemed like an easy way to cut an accurate kerf in a saw handle. First one needs a saw that will cut a kerf to the size wanted. Second, a piece of wood is trimmed to just a hair less than half the thickness of the saw handle. The saw is then clamped to the piece of wood on top of a bench in a way so the wood acts as a stop for the depth of cut. Then, the new handle is carefully run back and forth on the saw blade to cut the kerf.


This is the method described in the Gramercy kit. The blade has several holes along the back edge that later get covered with the brass strip. The holes are used to mount the blade to a piece of wood sized to half the thickness of the handle less half the thickness of the saw blade.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Alright I am going to buy a nice dovetail saw-I have had enough of my 10" crown gent saw. I was hoping to get some options from all the experts out there. I have looked at lie-nielsen, gramercy, adria, wenzloff

Gramercy, unless you are willing to wait for the wenzloff.
The kit is rather inexpensive.

Or you can make a bow saw and do it like Tage Frid.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm contemplating replacing the totes on my bench planes at the mo, because (with a three finger grip) they're a little tight for my hands. (This of course may be that my grip is all wrong)

On the larger totes of the #5 & 7 planes, I have actually taken rasps, gouges, chisels and sandpaper to the curves to open the handles up a bit. My pinky seemed to always get pinched before doing this.

On the smaller totes this would help some, but my holding technique swings between pointing my pinky inside the plane body towards the toe, resting on the japanning, or having my index finger extended toward the toe or curled around the blade.

YMMV or Your hand may be bigger.

jim

[Jim Koepke]

http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/frameset.cgi?left=main&right=/library/library.html


Just tried this link and it goes to the library page at Vintage Saws.

So, you need to click on the "Hows of Setting Saws."

Hope there wasn't too much confusion and frustration.

jim

Anyone who isn't confused really doesn't understand the situation.
– Edward R. Murrow

[Steve Hamlin]

On the larger totes of the #5 & 7 planes, I have actually taken rasps, gouges, chisels and sandpaper to the curves to open the handles up a bit. My pinky seemed to always get pinched before doing this.

On the smaller totes this would help some, but my holding technique swings between pointing my pinky inside the plane body towards the toe, resting on the japanning, or having my index finger extended toward the toe or curled around the blade.

YMMV or Your hand may be bigger.

jim

Exactly what I've been getting - I have a lump on the side of my little finger from the abuse it's been getting recently.

I've got some milliput, and was going to build up a couple of the totes (probably scrub, #6 and #4.5 since the emphasis is different) with this, to see if reshaping with a higher bump for the thumb web and thenar emminence (SP? thumb meat) to drive against may relieve it.
At the moment I too am taking my little finger off of the tote at times, or trying to get my hand higher by pointing over/around the blade to give it a break, but it does feel weird.

My fingers aren't particularly thick, but more than average width palms and a 9"+ span (which inconveniently seems to be increasing with regular hand work - be a useful measure otherwise)

Cheers
Steve

[Johnny Kleso]

I dont get this four finger movement, I have huge fingers size 13 when I was in HS only one person had a bigger ring 13 1/2 in a class of about 2,000

I have more than a dozen back saws and none offend me with the way they fit..
95% are old Disstons and a four new Tyzacks and I think 2-3 other old brands..

People used these saws all thier life day in and out and the makers made the best tool they could and saving wood with a small handle was not a concern..

IMHO try it you'll like it.......

[Michael Hammers]

Here is a new maker that I am going to try. Vlad Spehar made my earlier ones but is no longer making saws.
http://www.eccentricwoodcraft.com/contact.html

[Casey Swenson]

Actually I find the thinner handle on the Gramercy as a positive as it prevents you from strangling the handle. Forces you to have a nice relaxed grip on the saw.

[Joe Vincent]

Here is a new maker that I am going to try. Vlad Spehar made my earlier ones but is no longer making saws.
http://www.eccentricwoodcraft.com/contact.html

Looks like this guy makes nice saws. If you get one, please write a review and post it here.

[David Shively]

[quote=Steve Hamlin;813944]I don't think a small handle on a DT saw is a bad thing, as it is a precision tool, and doesn't need gripping like a cudgel nor driving like a scrub plane.


Just thought I would clarify something since it appears to be a subject of great debate at the present time. I think that grip and comfort is all a matter of personal opinion-For me when I have a slightly thicker grip I relax more as it fills my hand slightly. I actually built the grammercy grip last night using the template from the kit to approximate it. It is by no means offensive and in some respects quite comfortable. I like several things about the grammercy saw-such as the fact that the blade is canted-and I suspect that the hang of the handle is also a nice feature. The distance between the horns is nice also. I also think that speed is relative to the user-I am not looking to win the dovetail 500 but I rarely have issue with deviation from the line or squareness of my cut so if I only have to make 2 quick strokes to set the kerf and 2 full passes to aproximate my line it is a positive thing. As far as reapairing mine-ie sharpening, adding a handle...all things that I may want to do down the road for a project but...I have a lot of better things imo to work on right now and it doesn't include that. For that matter I would suspect that most of you can respect just wanting a nice new high quality tool. Thats why some of us buy Lie-Nielsen planes (love them!) or veritas and some of us buy them on ebay and pour hours into making them new again. All opinion. I was primarily looking for alternative makers like Ed's medallions, Leif and his norse saws(not making saws at this time), Andrew with his Eccentric toolworks, Or Tim Hoff over on woodnet. I appreciate the passion that they put into their art and the quality that is undeniable. I want to thank everyone though for their wonderful opinions it is helping aid my decision