Oneida and Penn State Industries Issues

[Scott Holt]

I am new to this site, and found out about you while heavily researching cyclone systems. Many of you have raved about Oneida, and some prefer Penn State Industries. Therefore, I decided to take all of your advice and purchase a cyclone from one of these two companies. While I agree that both produce very good products, I find it extremely difficult to do business with either company.

Penn State Industries: I called this company a couple of times, spoke with a gentleman named Bill. He was very helpful, and spent plenty of time with me on the phone. The problem is, they were out of the product that I requested....in fact, they were out of all the other cyclones above it, as well. (Bill neglected to tell me this when I was making my purchasing decision). So as of March 25th, 2008, if you are wanting ANY of the "S" model PSI Cyclones, they are out. Do not bother calling their customer service department, as they cannot tell you when they will be back in stock. I'm free to be placed on the backorder list...Sure PSI, I'll just put my business on hold, and wait for your "unknown" shipment to magically appear on my doorstep. Who knows, maybe Santa Clause will drop it down my chimney next December.

Oneida: I have called this company 3 times to ask a couple of simple fit questions. I knew ahead of time I would need to speak with a technical support person. The first time I called, the entire staff was in a weekly meeting that is held during regular published business hours. (Go Figure). I was told I could either call back or leave a voice mail. I decided to call back later that day. When I called back later, I was told that one of their technical support people was helping a showroom customer, and the other was busy doing ductwork design. (now in retail, I was taught the golden rule was when a customer needed help, you dropped what you were doing and helped them. They are the PURPOSE of your work, not an interruption of your work). ONCE AGAIN, I was asked if I wanted to be patched through to voice mail, and was told that they would "probably" get back with me the next morning. I resorted to leaving a voice mail. I still have yet to receive a return call after waiting for 24 hours. All I need to know is the answers to a couple of simple fit questions that are not specified on their PDF drawings. Can I read blueprints...yes, I am a former automotive buyer. Could I do a better job as a customer service manager of a mail order company...yes, I am a former retail manager, as well. I am failing to see why this company is supposed to be so "customer service oriented," when I cannot receive the answers to a couple of simple questions in a "reasonable" time frame.

The bottom line is that I fail to see how either of these companies are in business to begin with. One's out of product, and the other cannot seem to supply basic technical service answers that might amount to a 5 minute phone call max.

But that's ok.....I'll just go spend my $2000-$3000 elsewhere.

I sincerely hope the presidents from both these companies are reading this posting. If I were either of you, I would take a serious look at the way I do business.

To quote Sam Walton: "Potential customers who are not treated well do not come back, and they WILL tell everyone they come in contact with just how they were mistreated. Furthermore, it is much harder to attract new business, than it is to retain existing business."
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/progress.gif

[Joe Chritz]

So the tech person is supposed to leave the customer he/she is with to go to another one?

If you have been waiting for more than 24 hours for a return call on a tech question then you have a complaint worth lodging.

Unless you have inside information that the tech people were out playing volleyball and not actually working I don't see the problem. There are a finite number of bodies at any business.

WalMart quotes probably aren't the best when dealing with a non retail chain. I wouldn't consider either Oneida or Penn State retail.

Joe

[Bruce Page]

Your first post and it is a rant against two very good companies?

First off, it doesn’t matter if you are General Motors or Penn State Industries, supply chain hiccups happen. In this Global economy, very few companies can afford to have warehouses full of product. When hiccups do occur, both the company and the costumer suffer.

Second, Meetings are a fact of life in the business world. I would not expect my employees to attend meetings during off hours. Your second call and Oenida’s one available sales/technical support staff member was with a customer, he/she is supposed drop what they’re doing to run to the phone? Time for a reality check.
Third call, if your tone was polite and courteous I would expect a call back. If it had the tone of your post, maybe not.

[bob cohen]

"and the other was busy doing ductwork design."

It would seem that this guy should have dropped what he was doing and taken the call.

I made my first call to Oneida today as I am also considering purchase of a cyclone. I got put through to a tech (Ryan) almost instantly. He was polite and knowledgeable, although I am not so sure I believe what he told me. Basically, he was recommending a 5 HP cyclone, where others here (who are also quite knowledgeable and not working for the company) seem to think I can get by with 3 HP, if not 2 HP, unit.

Maybe grizzly is the way to go--I recently purchased an 8 inch jointer from them and was really pleased with their customer surface, and jointer itself--although I'm not ready to give up on Oneida just yet.

[Curt Harms]

www.clearviewcyclones.com They get good reviews and seem to have a well received product though I have no firsthand experience with them. The big complaint I've heard about them is they sell more of a "kit". If you're a business, You might not want to mess with them. OTOH, the Bill Pentz designed cyclones seem to get uniformly positive reviews, and Clearview is a family operation.

HTH

Curt

[Scott Holt]

That's funny, I did not realize that either Oneida or Penn State sold their products wholesale. Maybe I should give them a call, fax the a copy of my business license and tax ID number, and ask for their "wholesale price."

Anyone selling factory direct, who has no pre-established dealer network, is charging you full retail price; and that price is determined by their competitors who ARE wholesaling to distributors.

Both Oneida and Penn State are retail businesses. Penn State even has an invitation to "visit our factory showroom" in their catalog.

[Jim O'Dell]

I would agree that the one doing a ductwork design should have taken the call. But even more, the OP should have been called back in a timely maner from the voice mail.
Meetings after hours. Now that's a fact of life for retail. The nine years I was in retail home audio sales and car audio sales and installation (We didn't install home stereos) all our meetings were after hours. And work hours were from 10:00 am to 9:00 pm. Many a product meeting 60 miles away, and get home at 12:30 the following morning, only to be back in the company van going to corporate by 6:00 am. That is how it works in normal retail. Internet retail has much nicer hours.
I do have first hand knowledge of Clear Vue, and I'm here to tell you Ed has called me on a Sunday night at 9:00 pm Central time, (10:00 pm his time!), even though I insisted by email that we could talk the next day. Now that is the type of service that we all want. Jim.

[Scott Holt]

"First off, it doesn’t matter if you are General Motors or Penn State Industries, supply chain hiccups happen. In this Global economy, very few companies can afford to have warehouses full of product. When hiccups do occur, both the company and the costumer suffer."As an automotive buyer, if I had a hiccup, then it had to be fixed right then and there. Idling a plant / business was not an option in "the real world;" even if it meant Roberts Express or Same Day Airs. My job for over 9 years was to fix "supply chain hiccups." And yes, when they occur, everyone suffers. But you fix them, and fix them quickly; then move on. If they happen again and again, then you find someone else to fill the need. That's why things like "supplier performance ratings" were created. You might say this is my own little supplier performance rating.


"Second, Meetings are a fact of life in the business world. I would not expect my employees to attend meetings during off hours. Your second call and Oenida’s one available sales/technical support staff member was with a customer, he/she is supposed drop what they’re doing to run to the phone? Time for a reality check."Meetings can be scheduled an hour before published catalog business hours, and still not interfere with overtime constraints. Almost all retail establishments do this on a weekly basis. That's such an easy fix.

"Third call, if your tone was polite and courteous I would expect a call back. If it had the tone of your post, maybe not."Maybe that was my problem. Hmmm, darn, I guess my 9+ years of dealing with both production and non-production parts vendors on a daily basis, my 10+ years of retail management experience, and my MBA have not served me well.

Yes, for the record, I was polite. I am actually voicing a concern (rant, as you call it) in an effort to let others know how I was treated. I thought I was helping others.

And for the record, I did leave a positive helpful reply on someone else's thread, immediately after I finished my "rant."

But I'll tell you what, chief. I'll find something better to do with my time than to waste yours by reading my rants.

Good day, gentlemen.

[Randal Stevenson]

"and the other was busy doing ductwork design."

It would seem that this guy should have dropped what he was doing and taken the call.




Without know EXACTLY what that entails, I wouldn't be so sure. While they could probably do it just fine if they had EXACT dimensions of everything in your shop (space from wall to wall, with every tool layout known, including exact measurements), the way I have read posts about them, ductwork design requires some customer feedback. In other words, they could be with, or on the phone with the customer getting the design done.

As for the meetings, if your on salary, I am sure your work expected you whenever. Hourly, they normally don't like to pay you overtime, to come in on your time off (and being grumpy) for some meeting that you won't be paying attention to (instead of the clock to get the heck out of there).

But as you have said, your money to see who you wish to support!

[Jeff Hallam]

Scott, you have some reason to be frustrated especially with a background in business. However, I think maybe your expectations for how a business should be run (because of your background) are a little high. Perhaps I am just the un-luckiest guy in Canada, but I have come to expect at least a day or two delay in response from businesses here. Note I said "expect" not "accept". There are a limited number of manufacturers or retail businesses that I have had exceptional service from, but I do remember them and keep going back. Unfortunately that isn't enough to keep the 'other guys' out of business (I wish it was). Sometimes they are your only choice, or they are the more economical choice even if they are a pain to deal with.


I'm not sure if you're a hobbyist or a professional at woodworking. As a professional I can see how small delays in procuring equipment could have an impact on your bottom line. As a hobbyist, I don't sweat the small delays. If I am getting stressed about a 24 hr delay it's probably because I am rushing into buying something (man that money burns holes in my pockets).

I honestly believe that consumers have a great deal of power by choosing who to deal with. I hope that you find a dust collection business that lives up to your standards. If not, I hope you end up with a good product from Penn State or Oneida.

Either way, take it easy. Your first post stressed me out! :)

[Greg Funk]

Technical help is always in short supply. Contact their sales dept who are likely on commission and they are more likely to expedite your info requests.

Greg

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Scott, first, welcome to the Creek. Personally, I think you have a legitimate beef, and I had similar questionable customer service from Oneida. Keep in mind though, if you do go that way, you will most likely be happy with the product you recieve.

Now, I find it hard to belive that you where not at all confrontational with Oneida. Each post on this thread from you is blatently confrontational. With your background, I'm sure you realize the difference in size of the companies you are familier with, and either Oneida, or PSI. You can't possibly realistically expect either of these two businesses to operate on the same scale as GM or the like.

Judging by the number of dust collector gloats here, business is booming for both of these companies. I know personally, and you probably do too, it takes a lot of hard work to grow a company. As I said before, you have a legitimate gripe, but compare apples to apples at least.

[Jim Becker]

Scott, Oneida is not a retail business. I have personally toured their facility. They do occasionally have a customer or potential customer make an appointment to visit and discuss business, or like myself, pick up my purchase rather than ship, but they are definitely not retail nor in a retail neighborhood. (Picture big old brick factory building in a industrial zone...) They are a manufacturer that sells direct in the US and through a few dealers in Canada. We know them for the smaller systems that most of us hold interest or ownership in, but they do a lot of small industrial systems that wouldn't fit inside any of our shops and would actually tower over them like a big farm silo. The sales folks and sales engineers really are quite engaged and not always able to take calls immediately.

Penn State, technically speaking, is not retail either. They are an Internet and catalog mass marketer. They do have a sister business called MCLS (the router bit people) that has a retail showroom just outside Philadelphia in Huntingdon Valley, but they do not accept visitors or even customer pickup at their Penn State Industries location in NE Philadelphia...unless something has changed recently. Unlike Oneida who custom manufactures most of their products in Syracuse, Penn State sources their dust collection equipment from contract and commodity manufacturers, primarily overseas. As such, they have to order in quantities and also deal with the logistics delays that any mass marketer suffers during resupply. Sometimes that means running out of product...and this is not the first time it's happened, nor likely the last. Not having what you want on the shelf is bad for them since folks seem remember the "unhappy" experiences more than the "happy" ones...

I'm not going to suggest to you that having to wait for a call back from Oneida is a good thing, but it does happen. That engineer working on the design was likely doing so for another customer and probably with a commitment to provide it by a certain time. It would be hard for any one of us to know if he/she was truly able to set that work aside to take a phone call at that moment. And the other engineer that was physically with a customer...talking a call at that point is not gonna happen. Now, if you don't get a call back in a reasonable period of time from the person you left voice mail for explaining your needs, call again ask for the customer service supervisor.

[Joe Chritz]

Retail business that sells large ticket items like say... a cyclone and a retail business like WalMart are two entirely different animals. I wouldn't expect them to have the same stock issues. Keeping Mac and cheese in stock is different than cyclones.

Are they technically a retail outfit as in they don't sell only to distributors? Yes, but watch out for that forest behind the trees.

It is also possible that no return call was on purpose. Kinda the same principal as bidding a job ridiculously high so you don't get it.

Joe

[Robert Payne]

www.clearviewcyclones.com (http://www.clearviewcyclones.com) They get good reviews and seem to have a well received product though I have no firsthand experience with them. <snip> HTH

Curt
Curt has inserted the wrong URL here -- it should by www.clearvuecyclones.com (http://www.clearvuecyclones.com) and they have superb customer service. I own a ClearVue mini CV06 that I use with my ShopVac to capture dust from my sanding station and I'm installing a CV1800 Cyclone to handle my 800 sf shop needs. While it is true that some assembly is required with a Clearvue, all of the other vendors in this thread also require some assembly. Be sure to check out the Photo Gallery for examples of installed systems. And do not hesitate calling Ed Morgano, the company President -- he will answer your questions cheerfully!

[glenn bradley]

So the tech person is supposed to leave the customer he/she is with to go to another one?

I'm pretty sure he was referring to the one doing duct design work.

Both companies have been praised and roasted here. Everyone has good and bad days. Some more bad than good.

[Ben Cadotte]

How come no one has mentioned Grizzly cyclones? Since they sell so much equipment I would bet they have several of each size in stock ready to go!

[Matt Meiser]

Scott, part of the issue is probably your expectations because of your background. I did consulting in the the auto industry for over 10 years, and now do the same thing in chemical, food and beverage and other consumer product companies, I've noticed a big difference. I the auto industry, everyone jumped with the guy up the food chain said jump--at any cost. In the other industries things get handled a little more reasonably. Its taken some getting used to, but its a lot less stressful too.

As far as your complaints, I agree that PSI should have told you what was and wasn't available, and I think a call back within 1 business day is a reasonable courtesy. Even if it was a less technical person calling to see if they could answer some of your questions in the mean time.

I have an Onieida cyclone body with a Jet blower. They were very helpful when I bought it, though I think they way over-engineered the duct layout which caused them to have no chance at getting the duct business. Luckily, back then they didn't charge for that service--if I had paid for it I wouldn't have been a very satisfied customer.

If I was buying a new cyclone, I'd look at Oneida again, but I'd also look seriously at the Grizzly units. By all accounts Clear Vue is nice too, but I'm not sold on plastic body long term and am not crazy about the kit aspect.

[Louis Rucci]

I concur. After reading reviews of cyclone manufacturers, I called ClearVue and had a plesant conversation with the owner. He answered all my questions and I submitted my order with him.

My shop isn't finished yet, so the cyclone hasn't been installed. But I expect it to work as advertised.

[Steve knight]

myself I would choose grizzly over a penn state cyclone first.

[Reed Gray]

Usually, I am on the turning forum, but caught the Oneida/Penn state dust collector thread. I got my Oneida system 5 years ago, and have been very pleased with it. I consider it to be just about the best system out there, and the others are copying it. Their help was excellent. They are a small company. I don't think they even had an 800 number when I first inquired about their systems. On the Grizzley systems, if my friends experience is any indicator, run away. He got a 2 hp system. He spent an extra 2 hours assembling the stand for the system because the holes weren't drilled properly for it. He started getting a squeaking sound not long after he got it. He opened up the top, and found the impeller had a crack in it. The crack may have been caused by bad machining, and/or being way out of balance. This also destroyed the motor. Good thing he caught it before it broke totally. Grizzley sent him replacements. He took the new impeller to a machine shop to have it balanced, and they told him it was so bad, they wouldn't even try to fix it. He got an Oneida.
robo hippy

[Richard Kee]

This is a timely post for me as I ordered my 2.5 HP Super Gorilla from Oneida on February 25 whil they still had free shipping. I delayed unpacking my unit until I had the basement walls sealed and studs and drywall installed before mounting my cyclone. The specifications from Oneida stated that the unit would fit into a space 49" wide. I had 51" so I expectd no problems - even placed the unit to the extreme left so that I would have the most room to install the filter unit and service the filter when needed. IT WOULD NOT FIT! My realization came on Thursday before Easter and the sales managers and technical support had all left for the day and Good Friday was a day off for the company, so I had to wait until Monday to express my grief. I'm sure that my blood pressure was extremely high.

Taking the time over the weekend to consider all aspects of the problem allowed me to determine a way that the unit could be modified to fit into the space I had - the flat plate onto which the filter mounts had tabs that were actually striking the wall and would not permit the cyclone-to-filter elbow to be installed. I asked if Oneida could modify the elbow unit. After studying my suggestion, Oneida agreed to make another unit for me, ship it, and supply a shipping label for the return of the elbow unit that I have.

I addition, they will modify the dimensions of their product to reflect the actual space that the unit takes. Also, they are considering modifying all furure elbow units to have the tabs oriented like I requested.

This all was a result of my having time to think clearly about the problem and arrive at a workable solution that benefited both me and Oneida.

I'm well pleased with Oneida's response and would certainly work with them again on another purchase, though I expect this unit to serve me well for as long I can enjoy woodworking.

BTW, I never considered having Oneida design my system as I have a HVAC contractor from whom I've had a sizeable amout of work done, and who has experience in the installation of dust colection syatems. He's doing the mnajor part of my ductwork with 24 gauge galvanized piping for less than $500.00 installed. I'm supplying some 7-7-4Y connectors, a 6-6-4Y, and a 6" blast gate for which had no sources, so my entire ductwork installation will cost less than $800.00.


Richard

[bob cohen]

Great post. I am really close to pulling the trigger on the 2.5 HP cyclone, with space and cost of ducting being my two major lingering concerns. Am I right in assuming that your unit is the "New 2.5 HP high efficiency cyclone" Oneida seems to change their model names often.

[Richard Kee]

That's correct. My unit is the 2.5 HP high effieciecy unit.

Richard

[Bob Aquino]

I have never done business with Oneida, though I have with PS for a while now. Based on the last few iterations, I would be hesitant to want to go back for anything else. I don't think you are off base for expecting a little bit better customer service or at least for them to be a bit more upfront about their stock on hand.

If I were to look for a cyclone, I would probably gravitate over to Grizzly. My dealings with them have all been positive and I like the way they seem to be growing their business though product diversity and solid CS. The owner is a member here and also over on woodnet. That says something about their focus on keeping us satisfied. And welcome to the forum.

[Jerry Booher]

Great post. I am really close to pulling the trigger on the 2.5 HP cyclone, with space and cost of ducting being my two major lingering concerns. Am I right in assuming that your unit is the "New 2.5 HP high efficiency cyclone" Oneida seems to change their model names often.

Bob, I too had space problems. See http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=74376 to see my problems and solutions.

I ordered the 2.5hp, but Oneida sent a 3hp motor because they were out of the high-efficiency smaller one. Seems like a better deal for me.

My ductwork was very cheap. For 70' of 24ga spiral (7" and 6") with 5 wyes, elbows, reducers, couplers I spent less than $400. I tried to use a crimper, but I can't crimp 24ga spiral, so I used couplers every where there was a joint.

Jerry