planes: how far gone is too far gone?

[Andy Richards]

I'm an ultra newb when it comes to planes, but I'd like to get into using them more. I have a small Stanley block plane i purchased from Lowes that I've been using for small corrections, but i'd like to upgrade to a goo dbasic plane for jointing and surfacing. Key point to remember: I'm poor, please dont suggest a LN. After reading posts here, it seems i need to look for an old stanely (4 or 7?) and recondition it. A couple questions:

1) Why are the new Stanelys and other models so bad? Why shouldnt i just get a new one from the borgs?

2) Stanley #4 or #7? Which is the best if i can only get one? how about #5 or all the others?

3) If i get an old one, how far gone is too far gone? At what point is it worthless to try and recondition? I recently went to a flea market and saw several very old Stanleys (pre 33 i'm guessing), but they were covered with a patina of rust. Is this normal? or do i shoot for something in better shape?

Basically i dont know what i'm looking for. There needs to be a sticky with useful info on what to look for and how to fix it up. All my search terms are either too short or too vague. Any help?

[Johnny Kleso]

Buy an old Stanley, one with patent dates in front of the rear handle..

The new planes are not made the way Stanley had made them for 75+ years..

The mouth on older planes was milled from the top side, now they are cut from the bottom with a metal cuttig saw blade leaving the bottom of the blade unsupported.. Plus plastic handles VS rosewood

[Ken Werner]

If you can only get one, get a 5. Check with Clint Jones here, he often has very nice planes for sale, and has earned himself a good reputation. If that's not an option, try to find someone near you who can show you how to adjust [fettle] a plane to good function. Your location isn't listed - I'd be happy to help if you're near me, and there may be other Creekers out there willing to do the same.

Do not buy the new stuff for the reasons mentioned by Johnny.

Ken

[Andy Richards]

How about #3? How far gone is too far? At the flea market i visited, i found 2 planes with patent dates before the handles and keyhole openings in the lever cap, but they were covered in rust. Should i head back and get them, or keep looking? Basically, will all old planes look like this? or with some effort, will i probably be able to find better?

[Ryan Hovis]

I took a 60 year old Stanley that looked like it came out of the ground and made it like new, so unless the metal is totally pitted it is restorable. Keep in mind restoration might involve replacing parts here and there. Frogs, irons, and screws can usually be wirebrushed and polished to look acceptable. Soles and sides can be steel wooled or sanded with 800 grit paper. A small handheld sandblaster will take care of the paint. Handles sometimes are beyond help, you can sacrafice a $10 Harbor Freight plane and get some nice looking handles. If the quality of the handle is a major concern, Woodcraft sells replacement handles.

[Kevin Lucas]

How far gone is gone? absent mindedly moving stuff out of my way I knocked my no. 4 off the back of a table and it promptly broke in 1/2 at the throat. Needless to say I had a few choice words fly out (

[Dave Cavanaugh]

The #3 is a smaller smoother. It will work ok if you have smaller hands, and is a little easier to use than a #4 because of the smaller size. However, the #4 is more common and may be easier to use if your hands are larger.

That being said, I would start with a #5 jack plane; they can be used for a number of different things and are by far the most common. Make sure you get a Bailey, and not a Handyman or some other brand; other brands like Keen Kutter and Winchester can be fine but you have to know what you're looking for, so I suggest you stick with a Bailey. Rust is OK, but heavy rust with pitting on the sole can be a problem. Here are things I would look for; you'll have to take the iron assembly apart to check.

First, it should be sound and intact. Chipped or broken totes and knobs can be easily fixed, so don't worry too much about them; maybe use their condition as a bargining point. Make sure all the parts are there (lever cap, angle adjuster, depth knob, frog adjustment screw, cap iron, cutter, etc.) If possible make sure all screws can be unscrewed and are not stripped. The screw threads are all odd sized, so pass if any are missing; you can't get them at the hardware store. Examine the mouth to make sure it's not chipped or cracked, and make sure there are no cracks in the main casting or sides. The cap iron should be intact and the locking lever should not be rusted. A few minor chips on the front edge of the cap iron are not uncommon, but if possible avoid them. Rusted irons and cap irons are not a big deal; a cap iron is easy to clean up, and if the blade is badly rusted you get replacements. In fact, I suggest you replace the standard cutter with a Lie Nielson, Hock or Veritas iron. If you want to use the factory cutter, make sure there are no pits on the back near the edge as you will need to flatten the back and any pits at or near the edge will result in an unsatisfactory edge.

Make sure all the adjustments work, especially the depth adjustment. The depth adjustment knob should turn freely and not be stripped, and the depth adjuster yoke should be intact. Surface rust anywhere on the plane can be removed by any number of ways, and pitting won't be a problem anywhere except on the sole and the back of the iron close to the edge. A pitted sole isn't the end of the world, and can be cleaned up with lapping on sandpaper on a flat surface (table saw or jointer table) but it's better to start with one as clean as possible.

If you haven't already read Pat Leach's Blood and Gore web site, I highly recommend it. There is a lot of detail I may have missed.

[Matt Ranum]

I myself am a newbie and a poor one at that, and had my first experience with hand planes a few years back when I bought a "Great Neck" brand of a #4 size. Needless to say it didn't go well and I swore I never would use one again. Fast forward a couple years and I ended up with some old planes when I bought some equipment from a widow. I did some research and learned tons that I didn't know before on using them and adjusting them.

That great Great Neck plane is built soooooo loose in the tolerances it isn't even funny. I have since bought more early 1900's Baileys and reconditioned them and its like comparing a Caddy to a Yugo.

There is lots of good advice here in this thread, just make sure they are complete and fully functional. Restoring them and using them is very very gratifying.

[Mark Stutz]

Andy,
A little surface rust won't be a problem. Dirt and grime will clean up. Look for ones with the tote intact. A chip off the top horn isn't a killer and can be patched, but I'd look for one intact. Lots of info/ tutorials on the web for cleaning and refubishing. It will go faster if you can find someone in your area for some hands on help, but for a great start, check the home page of Johnny Kleso...just click on his name a few posts up...that will take you to his profile page...and click on his home page...all you asked for and more.

Mark

[Johnny Kleso]

How about #3? How far gone is too far? At the flea market i visited, i found 2 planes with patent dates before the handles and keyhole openings in the lever cap, but they were covered in rust. Should i head back and get them, or keep looking? Basically, will all old planes look like this? or with some effort, will i probably be able to find better?

Rust is OK, I try to find planes on eBay that are not shiny but if its heavy rust which means pitting it addes a lot of elbow grease to get it working..

I am kind of an expert at refinishing planes and tried to add what I know to my webiste www.rexmill.com (http://www.rexmill.com) I did buy a lot of planes and refinish them for sale but I stoped this so I can do some woodworking :)..

Depending on price and condition they maybe good buys just for parts, good No.5+ hadles can sell for $25+ on eBay and you get all the other parts to save or sell..

PS:
To all plane buyers......

Check for cracks!
Ask on ebay sellers before you buy, if you get a cracked plane ask seller for a discount and keep parts is what I do so everyone might have a good deal..
The two places they happen most as at the corners of where the blade sticks out running backwards, most often on low angle planes..
Second is on the humps at the sides of the plane and most often on type 14-15 No3 which is the types I collect :) At least it seems that way, I bet I have 5-6 cracked No3 in the garage..

[Jim Koepke]

Before becoming a door stop.

Here is a post on one I rehabbed.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=708698&highlight=fettling#post708698

I bought this one for parts and it was cheap on the auction site that shall not be named.

It is mostly a type 9. There are some parts I will not move from type to type, but blades, wood and adjuster knobs are OK by me.

This is why it is good to learn about the different types. I have found planes in antique shops that are made of ill fitting mismatched parts. Most important is the base and frog work together.

If you are going the yard sale, flea market, antique store route, carry a magnifying glass with you and maybe a little fine sandpaper. This way, you will be able to check around the mouth for cracks.

There is a difference between a patina of rust from sitting on a shelf in a garage for 50 years and rust scale due to getting wet from poor storage every winter for 50 years.

The following is just my opinion and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Just did a search on auctions at the site that shall not be named. Here is one that I would take a chance on,170204244295. Gee, scratch that, I just bid on it.

The pictures make it look rusty and might chase a few toward a cleaner looking plane. The blade does not show any lateral adjuster notch above the chip breaker. For this size blade, it often appears to be the case.

The same seller has this one 170204244270. Now this looks to be a bit worse. The rust appears a little scaly. Look at the screw holding the tote, it looks like there is rust right up to the wood. A fine difference between the two planes.
This one also has a knob in bad condition and a broken tote.

If your computer has a "Universal Access" control panel, you may have a way to zoom in on images. You may have to "snag" the images then enlarge them in Photoshop or some other image handling program.

Here I am giving away all my secrets, but you guys won't tell anyone right?

From the same seller, #170204244254 looks like one I would stay away from. I do not know that much about the different makers, but this looks like a cheapy that could be made by Stanley and sold under the Defiance label. As far as the rust goes, it does not look like it would be a real effort to clean the base, but the blade and chip breaker look rough. I am not a metallurgist, maybe if someone who knows about metal they could give us a lesson on rust and how different types of steel may have different rust characteristics.

A #4 from a different seller, 150227103362. One poor quality picture. Very little in the description. It is hard to tell if there is a ring around the front knob on this one. If there is no ring and the rest is correct, it is in the SW era. It looks dirty, tote looks broken, but not too bad. It is up to $14 with shipping. That is about all I would want to spend on this one if I was looking for a #4 right now.

This is kind of fun.

The same seller has a #5 for sell 15022710269. This one has a ring around the knob base. It also appears to have thicker ribs at the toe and heel. The picture makes it hard to tell if the wood is hardwood or not. The tote does look to have flat sides. This is newer than I like in a plane from Stanley. Heck, everyone loves the SW planes and I prefer the pre SW planes. My #3 is a SW plane and it is a fine plane, for some reason, likely without rational foundation, my preference is type 11 or earlier.

Anyway, not sure if this gives any food for thought, or even a better understanding of good rust vs bad rust, it has been a little fun for me, and if all goes good, I may get another plane I do not already have.

One last thing that may not be a valid point, but it is my thought that there is a reaction going on between a blade and a chip breaker when there is moisture in the area. I am not sure how dissimilar the metals are, but that could be one cause. Another cause could be because of the wood dust building up in this area. All of these could compound together to cause chemical and electrical reactions that translate into pitting or other metal deterioration.

jim

Anyone who isn't confused really doesn't understand the situation.
– Edward R. Murrow

[Mike Henderson]

How far gone is gone? absent mindedly moving stuff out of my way I knocked my no. 4 off the back of a table and it promptly broke in 1/2 at the throat. Needless to say I had a few choice words fly out (
I did the same thing to a type 11 #4. Really upset me. So I bought some Vaughan and Bushnell planes that are made from forged steel and don't break.

Mike

[Fred Strumpf]

Jim,

Great Post

Since my #2 purchase, I've been following threads, especially where you post, and am learning alot.

Question, I want to build a treadle lathe, but am not an addicted turner. Would it be more appropriate to post here or in the turner area.

Thanks

Fred

[Robert Rozaieski]

What do you want to do with it? Do you want to joint edges or smooth borads instead of sanding. This will guide your decision.

If you want to joint boards, you need a long plane, like the #7, but the longer the better. A long plane translates to a flat surface (but isn't an ideal smoother because it will only plane the high spots). I use a 30" woodie for jointing.

If you just want it for smoothing/final surfacing, get a short plane like a #3 or #4. I have both and prefer my #4. These will follow the minor surface iregularities (and not just plane the high spots like a long plane) and leave a surface that is more evenly planed.

If you already have a power jointer and planer and plane to do your stock prep with them, skip the longer planes like the #5 and up. In this case you are really just looking to smooth the surface so you want the #3/#4 mentioned. The longer planes like the #5 and up are intended for preparing rough stock, not final surfacing.

[Jim Becker]

On question number one, the "new" Stanley planes and others are not really from the same company as the old, vintage tools that everyone covets so much. (Same for Record) Quality is poor and even with what "tuning" you can do, most of the time, you'll still end up fighting the tool.

[Jim Koepke]

Question, I want to build a treadle lathe, but am not an addicted turner. Would it be more appropriate to post here or in the turner area.

Thanks

Fred

Not really sure about the most appropriate place to post.

I just did a search on treadle lathe and found a lot in Turners and General Woodworking. There are a few here in Neanderthal Haven, which is where most of my time is spent.

This is from one of my favorite contributors, Harry Strasil:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=41632&highlight=treadle+lathe

Some good pics and made from discarded wood.

The search function is very powerful. It was a Google search that lead me to SMC and it appears there are lifetimes of knowledge being shared here.

Good luck with the lathe. My problem is to get much more in the way of tools, a lot more in the way of space will have to magically appear.

jim

[Andy Richards]

Jim, your post was extremely helpful. Being able to compare different old planes definitely helps me get an idea of what to look for.

[Jim Koepke]

Glad to be of help Andy.
This is pretty much how I learned. Look at pictures, buy and compare.
The old rusties are a lot better than the new cheapies as long as the rust is not too bad.

jim

[Alan Schwabacher]

Another way to look at it is that the new Stanleys, while useable after tuning, are not cheap enough. The old ones can be cheaper and better.

[Johnny Kleso]

Here is what is To Far..

I have been wroking refinishing several planes I bought over the winter.. 6-7 will be for me other I should have done for the fall season to sell on ebay..
https://home.comcast.net/~stardawg/mkIII/10.jpg

Sanded and Flattened Soles and Cheeks

https://home.comcast.net/~stardawg/mkIII/12.jpg

Here you can get an idea of the condition of the planes when bought



And a KeenKutter 5 1/2 ( Stanley made Bedrock) finished after the whole refinishing..
Two Toned Rosewood knob 1/2 sap wood which I really like :)

https://home.comcast.net/~stardawg/mkIII/13.jpg

This is the condition I get all planes to..
All instructions are on my website www.rexmill.com (http://www.rexmill.com)

I'll try to add better pictures from the large session and also they to make instructions more clear and maybe add some youtube videos from the digital still camera..

This is to far, but I really enjoy brig a plane back to life for another 75-100 years of use..

[Andy Richards]

wow, looks real nice. How long would you say it takes you to redo a whole plane? I assume you're pretty fast by now.

I read through your site. Unfortunately, i dont have all the equipment that you do, so if I manage to find an old plane, it'll just be me and some elbow grease to clean that sucker up.

[Johnny Kleso]

Main tool I use is a HF 8" Buffer
I use to start stripping the japanning and finish with a de-burring wheel to polish the parts..

I guess I can do a plane in a few days maybe 2-3 hours work..

Refinishing the handles takes the longest, least real work..
Flattening the sole is the most work even with tha 4x48 sander I have..

If you buy a nice plane to start (unlike me :) ) Its not a big job adding some shellac and paint with some polishing..