Cracking up in Arizona

[Troy Donson]

Ok so I am relatively new to turning and have really been sucked in deep...

I have made about a dozen or so laminated bowls, jars and pencil holders out of odd scraps of wood I have had in the garage. I went to a Phoenix, AZ Woodworking store and purchased a bunch of those wax covered "Bowl Blanks". A couple Cocobolo, a Tulipwood, a bunch of Redheart among others...

So far I have destroyed 2 of the redhearts, a Curly Maple, and the Tulipwood. Figure about $75 worth cracked to pieces.

Troy - 0

Cracked Wood -4

I followed everything I could find about the DeNatured Alcohol drying process and (I thought) followed it to the letter.

To anyone who wants to help, here is what I was doing:

Cut the blank round on the bandsaw. Most started as 6" X 6" X 3" blocks.

Mount to the lathe, turn it to the rough shape I want, leaving 10% of the diameter of the bowl in the walls and bottom ( 5" bowl would have .5" sides and bottom)

Emerse the blank in DNA, seal the lid, set aside for 24-48 hrs. Remove from can and let dry for 1 hour (or until the bowl "looks dry"). Wrap in at least eight layers of newspaper and cut out the middle section of the depression, put upside down on a cake rack inside my home office closet (cool, dry, dark and no breezes from the A/C). Come back and check in 2 weeks and the bowl(s) are cracked completely through the sides and/or the bottom.

From what I have read the drying normally takes between 2-6 weeks. So, is it because I am in Arizona with it's dry air that these are drying too fast? If it is, what are my options?

I went ahead and turned out the resulting "Crack Pots" and finished them, attempting to practice "pushing BLO" (thanks to Jim Becker's technique) right up until the curly maple one exploded off the lathe. ("Centrifugal Force, meet Troy. Troy, Centrifugal Force!) Besides knocking the week's garbage all over the garage floor as I tried to occupy the same space the garbage can was occupying at the same time in my hast to clear the blast zone, no damage except to my pride. The LOML happened to open the door to the garage as I was trying to get up and disentangle myself. Bless her heart, she just made sure nothing was torn off and/or bleeding, saw that I was actually conscious and, shaking her head, left again without saying a word.

To be honest at this point I am not very fond of wet wood right now. I am getting my "fix" by turning my laminated stuff until I find out what I have been doing wrong... There must be something I am missing and I have no idea what it is...

Thanks for any help,

Troy

[Steve Schlumpf]

Troy - sounds like you did everything by the numbers. I am not an expert but would suggest the following:

The fact that the bowls have cracked means they dried to fast and that is most likely due to your location. I would take steps to slow the drying process down. First I would leave the bowl a little thicker - closer to 5/8" - 3/4". Second, I would not let the bowl sit for more than a few minutes - once it is out of the bath - before wrapping it. I always used brown paper bags (thicker) and wrapped the bowl while still fairly wet but not dripping. I used masking tape and taped the paper bag to itself.

Sounds like the location you have the bowls drying in should work but if you continue to have problems you will have to restrict the airflow even more.

As I mentioned - I am no expert but would highly suggest you contact Dave Smith - who is the expert. You should be able to reach him here: http://alcoholsoaking.blogspot.com/

Best of luck with your drying! Looking forward to seeing a completed bowl real soon!

[Troy Donson]

Here are some not-so-good pictures of what has been happening...

3 are of the tulipwood and 1 of the Redhearts. The Redheart was not completely turned on the botom because it was, at this point, good to me only for finishing practice...

[Troy Donson]

Thanks, Steve.

I will write to Dave and see what his take on this is...

I am completely amazed at what you folks do and really do enjoy the peacefull feeling of turning wood. The stress of my regular job makes this a joy and I do not want to give up yet.

That being said, I can't see blowing my wood budget on "experimenting" either... So if anyone else has any clue please chime in.

Thanks

Troy

[Tom Sherman]

Troy you might consider that the wood wasn't as 'green' as you were led to believe. I have purchased 'green wood' before and discovered that there were already cracks in it. Check your wood carefully before you buy. HTH

[robert hainstock]

send them to me, i'll patch them up and finish them. seriously, that can happen after yars of suppoedly drying in a very dry atmosphere. I have a 3in thick maple plamk that has been in my very dry basement for over ten years devekope surface cracks over the years. A piece of ebony that has been stored in my wood bin crack when I used some of it for pen blanks. Point is wood is libel to do that afyter many years, or right away. I'm usong that maple for bowl blanks anyway, It is birdseye. I would try to save those blanks with CA nad damn the torpedos. :eek:
Bob

[Troy Donson]

Thanks Tom.

The blanks in question were completely covered in wax and were quite heavy. Not very easy to see what was the actual condition until I started turning them. They seemed very solid before attempting to "dry" them.

When turning them there were absolutely no cracks and they turned very easily. Nice long curls coming off the gouges... The curls, when held in my hand, were actually rather "moist".

I just wrote Dave Smith and will see what he has to say and post back here. I am still looking for advice though.

Troy

[Scott Hubl]

Store bought waxed blanks bought at places like Woodcraft and Rockler ect. should be ready to turn or close to it.

I buy mine bring home and just set up on wire rack shelving for a month to let acclimate to my shop .
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/AmericanAndProud/blanks-1-web.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/AmericanAndProud/blanks-2-web.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/AmericanAndProud/blanks-3-web.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/AmericanAndProud/pen-blank-shelves-web.jpg
Then just turn to Finish. Unless I notice the blank is wet , I'll just stop turning it and set it aside in a brown paper bag and grab another one.

I have never done the DNA thing, but could the blanks be dry already and the DNA process is cracking them?:confused:

[Dennis Peacock]

Troy,

Let's try this.....

1. Turn your pieces "thinner" and make sure the bottom of the bowls are thinner by about 1/8" than the walls. Try for an even wall thickness from the rim to the bottom.
2. Place it in an alky bath for about 4 hours.
3. Take it out and wrap it in 4 layers of newspaper and tape it all closed.
4. Take some wax paper from the LOML's kitchen and wrap only the outside of the now paper wrapped bowl but leave the "what would be paper opening" to the bowl closed by only the newspaper.
This is force a slower dry of the blank and will allow most of the drying to be done from the inside of the bowl.

I've been wanting to help solve problems like this for some time now and this is a wild shot as it's humid here most all the time and the alky bath process is a huge hit for me by making almost 100% of all my bowl blanks usable.

Can we try this on one? Am I crazy for suggesting it? Maybe so, but I think it's worth a try. Worse case scenario? I'll owe you a bowl blank. :)

[Troy Donson]

Ok now you have gone and done it!!! Give me hope where I was just about to give up!! :o

Pray tell where can I find a good article for repairing with "super glue" ? I have some "medium" CA. Should I use that or give the "thick" a shot?

BTW, the cracks in the tulipwood, well, you can see daylight through them... Still saveable?

Thanks

Troy

[Ron Erickson]

Troy, from my experimenting, my house gets very dry in the winter, you have two possible problems. From the pictures of your bowls I would make them thinner, a 6" bowl no more than 1/2" at the rim and then thinner down the sides and the bottom always thinner than the rim and sides. I learned this from Bill Grumbine's DVD. A smaller tenon on the bottom may even help. Also with the dry air you have you can slow down the drying by completely (no hole) wrapping them in many layers of newspaper and then putting them in brown paper bags. The slower they dry the better. After 2 or 3 weeks you may want to remove a few layers of paper.

[Al Wasser]

I live in So. Colo. and our humidities are like those in AZ. I know- I worked there! I found out early not to spend $ of green wood. It may crack within days of getting it, wax covered or what ever. I only buy dry wood. Any green wood I work with is local found or given wood. I don't feel so bad if it cracks.
Put the word out to friends and coworkers that you want wood if they are removing trees, or doing heavy pruning.

[Barry Richardson]

I turn a lot of green wood here in AZ, but I use mostly the free kind. My method is the old standby of turning rough, putting the bowl in a double brown paper bag or cardboard box, pack with the damp shavings, and wait a month or so. I've had good luck, even with woods that people say are difficult, like eucalyptus and carob, and I'm a rookie. With green wood, a bit of cracking is common. Just look at it as an opportunity to hone your skills at fills and repairs.

[Jason Clark2]

Troy, I turn a lot of green wood here in AZ too. My method is to turn to 10% thickness and then completely seal them in brown paper bags before putting them on shelves over the laundry room inside the house. 6-8 weeks later they are removed from the bag and left to dry on the same shelves for another 6-8 weeks before being moved back to the garage where they sit until I can get back to them for final turning.

I still end up with some cracked pieces, it's the nature of the beast with green wood here in AZ. I do not consider wood purchased from Woodcraft, Rockler, etc. as dry. It's covered with wax for a reason.

Barry and Troy, I highly recommend that both of you join your local AAW chapter, the Arizona Woodturners Association. We meet monthly, usually in Tempe. You can find more information on our website, http://www.azwoodturners.org or feel free to contact me via PM.

Jason

[Don McIvor]

When I lived in NV I had a really tough time keeping blanks together. As others have suggested here the air is just too dry and blanks dry out too quickly. I'll throw out a few thoughts you might add to your list of things to try.

You might want to just turn your bowls and finish them in one session. If they're a little green and warp after you've finished them, it's called "art." The thinner wall of a finished piece is less prone to cracking.

Mike Mahoney (who lives in another desert state) paints his roughed out blanks with anchorseal or an equivalent. He's reported loosing very few pieces to cracking, but I think he also has a fairly controlled environment where he lets the blanks dry.

You might think about setting up a drying facility where you can control the climate to some degree. I'm thinking of an old fridge or freezer where you could keep an eye on the humidity. You do want some air circulation to let the humidity escape and prevent mold growth.

For those pieces that have cracked, I'd be tempted to fill the cracks with something interesting (brass, coffee grounds, sawdust of a contrasting color...) and epoxy or CA and then go ahead and turn them. Just be aware that the structural integrity of the blank is compromised, don't stand in the flight path, and listen to the wood as you're cutting for sounds that it may be coming apart.

[Kevin McPeek]

That is always a battle turning around here.
I tend to rewax most of my blanks after roughing them and let them sit for 6 months or so. I also don't do a lot of roughing after April or May.
I can't comment on DNA drying because I don't use it, but the best advice I can give is don't rush anything.
As far as your cracks go, fill them ground up coffee and drip some thin CA in, then sand smooth. You can use a number of fillers but coffee works really good and is generally a recycled product ;)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Troy....I live in a dry climate too. I used instant coffee and epoxy to repair cracks and then finish turn. The instant coffee just colors the epoxy.

[Troy Donson]

Ok, I have got the idea that for whatever reason, the wood just dried too fast. Are the brown paper "lunch bags" you can get at the supermarket usable or do you mean the "old fashioned" grocery sacks from years gone by? I could just as easily get brown package wrapping at my job. I have not seen a brown paper grocery bag in years... I'll ask next time I go shopping.

Just so everyone knows, I got the redheart from Rocker via the mail, the other pieces from WoodWorker's Source in Phoenix. I have had excellent luck turning a bowl from a blank marked "Kiln Dried" Birch from WoodWorker's Source and wanted to turn some of the more colorfull woods...

I have about 4 rolls of wax paper I use to keep from gluing myself to my projects. I guess I will try turning a bit thinner, dump it into the alcohol for only 8 hours, wrap in wax paper, stuff into a couple brown bags, put it in a cardboard box, put that in a closet, mutter enchantments by the light of a full moon and hope for the best... :D:D:D

Seriously though, thanks for all the help and advice. I just ordered 5 more "inexpensive" ( :rolleyes: ) blanks and will experiment and post my very unscientific results...

This no where near as expensive as learning how to fix (or blow up) cars. So sooner or later I will get it solved, which will win me the Nobel Peace Prize for saving the world from novice wood turners...

And on top of that I will donate 10% of all my Prize winnings to the Creek to show my gratitude!;)

[Jason Clark2]

Troy, I use the paper grocery bags from one of several local grocery stores, usually Albertsons or Bashas. They're there, but you usually have to ask for them. For bigger bowls I use the takout bags from Chili's or wrap them in heavy brown craft paper and seal with packing tape.

Jason

[Troy Donson]

Thanks, Ken.

What do you use to fill in a light wood like the tulipwood?

[Troy Donson]

Jason, I can get craft paper here at work, so I will give that a try. Thanks, troy

[Mike Vickery]

Troy,
My method is very similiar to the one Kevin McPeek listed above. The only difference is I will usually coat the end grain with a coat of Anchor Seal and then seal the entire bowl to help even out the drying
Drying wood without cracking in AZ is a fight and a lot of it just depends on the wood. All in all though I manage to have a pretty low cracking rate for most of my bowls. This is with me leaving them in the garage to dry
In my opinion drying bowls is somewhat an aquired skill. My exact method will change depending on how prone to cracking the wood is and what time of year it is. For example last May (which is already pretty hot) a couple of us scored some African Sumac which has a tendency to crack so they got roughed out the endgrain coated with sealer then the whole blank sealed then placed in a paper bag in the shop. Mesquite in the winter might only get the endgrain sealed, in summer I would probably seal the end grain and then the whole bowl.

By the way I used to use DNA and it seems to work, but i no longer use it. Once I got a good amount of rough outs built up I no longer needed to spead the drying process up. I do not weigh my rough outs or anything but based on my experience a 3/4 inch wall thickness bowl is dry in about 4 months here.

If you join the AZ woodturners club find me and say hi at the next meeting.

[Troy Donson]

My method is very similiar to the one Kevin McPeek listed above. The only difference is I will usually coat the end grain with a coat of Anchor Seal and then seal the entire bowl to help even out the drying.

Ok so if I rough out the bowl, seal it with Anchor Seal, stuff it in a paper bag, label the bag with the date, come back in a couple months and finish it... Is that what you mean? I ask because you say "seal the end grain," then "seal the entire bowl". Is it to mean you seal the end grain of wod you are storing before turning? Sorry I am kinda lost here...



By the way I used to use DNA and it seems to work, but i no longer use it. Once I got a good amount of rough outs built up I no longer needed to spead the drying process up. I do not weigh my rough outs or anything but based on my experience a 3/4 inch wall thickness bowl is dry in about 4 months here.

If you join the AZ woodturners club find me and say hi at the next meeting.

I only have a limited amount of funds to buy blanks and have not found a source (yet!!) of green wood for turning so speeding things up is helpfull. I enjoy turning because of the sense of peace I get doing it. That's why I am out in the garage at 3am turning...

As to joining the AZ Woodturners, I plan on doing so as soon as I get the time to actually make it to a meeting. I would like to get out to Tempe, but I just work too much... However, that being said, I will spring for a couple of beers if you let me pick your brain at a local tavern...:D:D

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Thanks, Ken.

What do you use to fill in a light wood like the tulipwood?

You can use the epoxy uncolored.....or if you add coffee grounds or instant coffee...it'll come out a chocolate brown. Actually the contrasting colors....say brown against a light wood can add some beauty ....character...to it. You are not going to hide the crack but what you can do is make it safe to finish turn. Cracks in a piece when you are trying to turn it can be dangerous. This is expecially true if the crack follows the grain and is what is called ring shake or shank. The blank can literally explode as you are trying to turn it. Using CA (super glue) or epoxy has 2 effects...it fills the gap and adheres them...hopefully preventing them from coming apart while you are turning them. Some folks will tell you that if it has a crack it's only fit for the burn pile.

[Mike Vickery]

Ok so if I rough out the bowl, seal it with Anchor Seal, stuff it in a paper bag, label the bag with the date, come back in a couple months and finish it... Is that what you mean? I ask because you say "seal the end grain," then "seal the entire bowl". Is it to mean you seal the end grain of wod you are storing before turning? Sorry I am kinda lost here...




With out trying to confuse this. I do seal the end grain on the blanks prior to turning but that is not what I am talking about.

Most of the movement/cracking is because as the bowl dries the end grain will loose moisture much faster then the flat grain. By useing sealer (anchor seal or similiar product) to seal the end grain then going back and sealing the entire blank. I basically have two coats of sealer on the end grain and one on the flat grain. The reason I do this is to try to get the bowl to dry evenly. If I just seal the entire blank I slow down the drying of the piece but my end grain is still going to loose moisture at a faster rate then the rest of the bowl.

Does this make sense?

This is of course just my opinion, I am by no means a woodturning or drying expert.

[Troy Donson]

Thanks Mike!

THAT cleared it up!

Hey I'm a mechanic, took too many wrenches in the forehead...

But really, that makes a bunch of sense. I am off to find some Anchor seal and brown bags after they let me outa here...

Really appreciate all the help everyone has given me...

Troy

[Ron McKinley]

I live in the CA High Desert which is similar to PHX weather. I turn them green, coat them all over with wood sealer and put them in a brown paper bag, taped up, for about two months. I keep them in a non-heated shed away from sun and wind and then finish turn them. Haven't had one crack yet but get occasional warping. Non-turners can't tell they're warped.

I've read a lot about DNA and Dishwashing Detergent as a way of drying but haven't tried either. A friend tried both of the above and concluded that it takes the same amount of time to dry no matter what you do to it. One is dangerous and uses toxic chemicals and the other is a slimy mess. The wood sealer, paper bag and two months seems to work as good as any. There's a lot of great turners in the PHX area that can help......Ron

[Bill Bolen]

When you try out the epoxy repair method think about using some sidewalk chalk for various color repairs. They can work very well. Just powder the chalk and mix it into the epoxy then into the crack. If it is a big crack back up one side with some masking tape or the glue mix will make a big mess..Good luck!..Bill..

[Kevin McPeek]

...Actually the contrasting colors....say brown against a light wood can add some beauty ....character...to it. You are not going to hide the crack ...

I have found that fills with lighter color wood looks like MDF, which is never pleasing to look at. You can also use crushed stone or embossing powder for a wide variety of color choices. I got a good tip at the last woodturners meeting and that was to regrind the coffee. I was having a hard time with the finer crack. I came home an ground it up and it looks a lot better to use. Going back to the beginning of coffee usage, be sure to dry the coffee in an open container or it will mold though. I spread it out in on some paper towels. You can also capture your sanding dust and use that, just put some paper under piece, on your lathe and sand with some coarse grit paper then pour it into a jar. Same color fills tend to stand out as a fill and not a feature as a contrast fill does.