Japanese saws, oye!

[James Carmichael]

I've been looking at the Japanese saws, and the array is dizzying to say the least. My initial need will be for cutting some rather long tenons (3 1/4 - 3 1/2") in maple. This pretty well disqualifies the back saws or dozukis as they won't go deep enough.

I'm open to suggestions, but as I am just trying this on, don't want to spend a bunch. The reviews I've read of the Japanese saws have been very good (bearing in mind that most of these are on websites where the saws are sold).

Also, will an unbacked saw flex too much for an accurate cut?

Thanks,

James

[Pam Niedermayer]

I've had great luck with the Nakaya tatebiki, straight and true.

http://www.hidatool.com/woodpage/saws/rip%20cross.html

Pam

[Alan Turner]

Try: http://www.tashirohardware.com/index.html
Mark Siiger told me about this fellow, and because I teach, and had lots of questions on Japanese saws, I decided I had better learn a bit. Turns out his saws are excellent, and quite reasonable. He has a joint rip saw that is not backed, and so will do your depth.
His single side set saws for cutoffs are the best I have ever used. I bought one handle, three fixtures for handles (cheap), and 4 blades. Made 3 handles, and away I went.
BTW, for joints, I still use my Western saws. But for the flush cutoffs, these are the cat's meow.
Alan

[James Carmichael]

Try: http://www.tashirohardware.com/index.html
Mark Siiger told me about this fellow, and because I teach, and had lots of questions on Japanese saws, I decided I had better learn a bit. Turns out his saws are excellent, and quite reasonable. He has a joint rip saw that is not backed, and so will do your depth.
His single side set saws for cutoffs are the best I have ever used. I bought one handle, three fixtures for handles (cheap), and 4 blades. Made 3 handles, and away I went.
BTW, for joints, I still use my Western saws. But for the flush cutoffs, these are the cat's meow.
Alan


You've come through again, Alan, this stuff looks great, and very reasonable, too.

Thanks!

[Bob Marino]

Try: http://www.tashirohardware.com/index.html
Mark Siiger told me about this fellow, and because I teach, and had lots of questions on Japanese saws, I decided I had better learn a bit. Turns out his saws are excellent, and quite reasonable. He has a joint rip saw that is not backed, and so will do your depth.
His single side set saws for cutoffs are the best I have ever used. I bought one handle, three fixtures for handles (cheap), and 4 blades. Made 3 handles, and away I went.
BTW, for joints, I still use my Western saws. But for the flush cutoffs, these are the cat's meow.
Alan

Curious, Alan.

Why do you prefer the Western saws for joints?

Bob

[Alan Turner]

Bob,
Good question, and one for which I do not have a good answer, but will try. Tom Law files my saws, which are mostly pre WWII Disstons. When Tom is through with them, they cut straight, even if I am asleep at the switch. I do have one LN, the Dovetail (straight handle) rip, and I liked it OK out of the box, but with a Tom Law filing, it is perfect. I find the Jap. saws hard to start on end grain, and my natural stroke has the power on the push stroke, from habit I am sure, so that when I use a Jap. saw, I have to be constantly reminding myself to pull harder, then back off for the return push stroke. Not much of an answer, huh?
Got time for a story? A good friend just gave me an old Disston, which he had had sharpened by Tom, and it is remarkable. Tom cut it to a 17 pt. crosscut, with almost no set because it is hollow ground. The blade thickness at the teeth is .025; at the top it is .020. Tom called him and told him that it was a rare saw in that Disston only made it for a few years. On the blade, two lines below the emblem, is etched: "For mechanics, not botchers." I have no idea of the value, but it is sure not for sale. A real beauty. I had gotten it for my friend originally, at his general request for a few older Disstons, for about $30, and he said (when he gave it to me) that I would use it more than he would, which is probably true. He is a wonderful maker and restorer, but does not have enough free time to pursue these things seriously at this time. I am forwever in my friend's debt.
BTW, the reason that a hand filed and set western saw is better than the factory ones was shown to me by Tom Law. If you look at a new saw, you will see that the area at the bottom of the gullet is deformed, sort of pouched out, and this binds the blade in the kerf. It comes from the machine setting of the saw, which is too violent. Saws should be hand set to avoid this problem, but none are from the factory that I know of.
Alan

[Eric Gracka]

Bob,
Good question, and one for which I do not have a good answer, but will try. Tom Law files my saws, which are mostly pre WWII Disstons. When Tom is through with them, they cut straight, even if I am asleep at the switch. I do have one LN, the Dovetail (straight handle) rip, and I liked it OK out of the box, but with a Tom Law filing, it is perfect. I find the Jap. saws hard to start on end grain, and my natural stroke has the power on the push stroke, from habit I am sure, so that when I use a Jap. saw, I have to be constantly reminding myself to pull harder, then back off for the return push stroke. Not much of an answer, huh?
Got time for a story? A good friend just gave me an old Disston, which he had had sharpened by Tom, and it is remarkable. Tom cut it to a 17 pt. crosscut, with almost no set because it is hollow ground. The blade thickness at the teeth is .025; at the top it is .020. Tom called him and told him that it was a rare saw in that Disston only made it for a few years. On the blade, two lines below the emblem, is etched: "For mechanics,
not botchers." I have no idea of the value, but it is sure not for sale. A real beauty. I had gotten it for my friend originally, at his general request for a few older Disstons, for about $30, and he said (when he gave it to me) that I would use it more than he would, which is probably true. He is a wonderful maker and restorer, but does not have enough free time to pursue these things seriously at this time. I am forwever in my friend's debt.
BTW, the reason that a hand filed and set western saw is better than the factory ones was shown to me by Tom Law. If you look at a new saw, you will see that the area at the bottom of the gullet is deformed, sort of pouched out, and this binds the blade in the kerf. It comes from the machine setting of the saw, which is too violent. Saws should be hand set to avoid this problem, but none are from the factory that I know of.
Alan

The Orientals, unlike Westerners, have patience and concentration - they are not like a bull in a China Shop which many Westerners are. And that is why, if you appreciate Oriental furniture, you may find that, the furniture is esthetically superior to ours - it is simple and looks marvellous. Their goal (with perhaps the exception of some construction workers), is to produce fine quality, at a pace which, is commensurate with the patience they put into the product.

To rip or X-cut, mark the line(s) with a 5 mm. pencil, and then score it with a sharp knife. Begin the cut by gently re-scoring the knife line with a dokuki. Hold the ryoba, or dozuki downwards (let gravity work for you) at the back of the wood and begin gently sawing until you feel that the saw is properly engaged in the wood. Gradually moving the saw towards the front of the wood and then let saw work a bit harder until you can go full bore.

The Japanese impulse blades last a long time. When you have to replace them, is that cheaper than sending your Western saw to be redone and wait until it is done (unless you're a do-it-yourself)? Do big-name saw restore Gurus make you a better woodworker? You have been inundated with Western tools, as have I, and perhaps are looking for a reason to stay with them, like I used to do. That may be the reason that, you may be looking for a reason to stay Western. You may have put a lot of time and resources into using them, and that is certainly understandable.

Woodworking is a hallmark about change, making things simpler, not buying cheaper and more expensive tools to make you a better woodworker.

I've had the same problem - getting things done quickly. And I couldn't get my tools to work properly. That soon changed with patience.

I was in Changwon (South Gyeongsang Province) Korea (~1985), had a day off, and watched construction workers. Compared to use, they had the most pathetic tools you've ever seen. And compared to us, they framed buildings that would put us to shame. So much for fancy, expensive tools, and I say no more!!!!!!!!!

[Tony Wilkins]

@Eric: Surely superior is a subjective term and as much as I like some Japanese tools I also like many Western tools. The gap in quality between tools that existed years ago has been closed. There are craftsman on both sides of the Pacific.

Stu at tools from Japan has a wider selection of saws but the basic impulse hardened are the same at Hida and elsewhere this side of the pond. A 210mm Kataba is what I'd recommend you look at for your project.

Also look at Wilbur Pan's blog (www.giantcypress.net) for lots of great information on Japanese tools including well thought out recommendations for folks beginning down the Japanese tool path.