Man I hate glue ups

[Jason Scott]

Gluing the base of my coffee table together yesterday, went slow, got special titebond slow set glue, practiced with dry run. Half way through had to pull something apart..........again.........and knocked half of the damn table off my small bench which hit a concrete floor and put a big dent in one of my legs...Only lucky thing about it is it was right on a corner of the foot of the leg so I have to chamfer them anyway a little bit so I just used it to my advantage, but I was sooooo angry, no matter how hard a try, slow I go, and practice runs I make this ALWAYS HAPPENS it seems like...I try so hard to be careful and do things perfect as I can, but when this kind of thing happens it makes me wonder why I even try...Thanks for listening...

Jason

[Jesse Cloud]

I hear you Jason! I don't know how it does it, but I'm pretty certain that putting pva glue on the edge of a board will change the direction the grain runs and I know for sure that it makes some boards thicker and others thinner.:eek::p;)

Only thing I hate worse than glue ups is what I did yesterday,route a nice clean dado, perfect shoulders, precise depth, then you realize its in the wrong place.:eek::eek: Boy, I'm glad I don't do this for a living.:o

[Richard M. Wolfe]

A fun little activity is getting the glue spread on a fairly large surface and then putting the clamps on and not being able to see some parts of the glueup. You tighten the clamps without knowing that you've put uneven pressure on them by clampling at an angle and caused the bottom piece to slide a half inch. Then when you come in the next day.... :mad: :mad: :mad:

Or not being able to see where the squeeze-out drips are going, and.... :mad: :mad: :mad:

Or --- forget it for now; I'll save the next thirty for the next post. :o

[David DeCristoforo]

Jason, you need to slow down... not physically but mentally. You are doing the "right thing" by making a dry run but then you are going into "panic mode" when you actually start the glue up. And the more times "this ALWAYS HAPPENS", the worse it gets. Go slower in your mind....relax. And maybe try to do your glue ups in stages. It's possible that you are simply trying to assemble too much at one time. With a table for example, instead of trying to assemble the whole thing in one shot, try putting up "sub assemblies" of two legs and an apron first. Then assemble those with the other two aprons. Break it down into smaller steps.

YM

[Pat Germain]

I actually enjoy glue-ups. It's like the finale to a great story. :) Taking your time is definitely good advice. If using yellow glue puts you in panic mode, perhaps you should try a slow-setting plastic resin glue.

I also enjoy finishing, which a lot of folks hate. I guess I'm weird that way.

[Vince Shriver]

I guess until someone figures out how to assemble cabinetwork with velcro, glue ups are just a part of what we do. And I sympathize with you in your little tale of woe, as I have been where you are way too many times myself.

Yoshi has given some of the best advice you can get, slow down - get a different mind set. You will be happier and more successfull. (Geez, I sound like a Fortune Cookie.)

[Bruce Shiverdecker]

One of the MANY reasons I don't do flat work!

Bruce

[glenn bradley]

Now come on guys, where's your spirit of adventure. Aside from finishing, glue-ups are the only other chance we have to really mess up on a piece. If you botch a leg or a stretcher, you make a new one (no one has to know). But the glue-up and the staining or oiling; now there's a chance to blow it.

Sounds like part of Jason's problem was an inadequate assembly area. Like a workbench, this is an unsung tool or great importance. If you don't have room for a permanent one, build a folding table or get some sawhorses, 2x4's and plywood.

Another part of Jason's problem is the one we all fall victim to and Jesse was quick to point out: "putting PVA glue on the edge of a board will change the direction the grain runs and I know for sure that it makes some boards thicker and others thinner" It's a fact, I swear.

Dry runs for glue-ups are like test blanks for finishes; unless you are diligent, you are wasting your time. For finishing samples, do the whole sanding regiment and the whole finishing regiment. For glue-up dry runs, do the whole set of steps including where your clamps will be when you reach for them and how you will move your piece as you assemble.

Also important, assemble parts of the piece a few at a time whenever possible. Don't get in a rush to mess things up ;-) Gary Rogowski has a good article on glue-ups without the heart attack: http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=24137

P.s. Unless you are doing really large assemblies, I find the extended open time glues a false confidence and waste of money. If you can't get lined up and clamped within a couple minutes, do it in smaller pieces or prepare better ;-) Take heart, we all get high blood pressure during the glue-up.

[Doug Shepard]

Glue-ups are like Alien Abductions. Victims often suffer from Missing Time:(

[Mike Cutler]

Jason.

Take Yoshikuni's advice,and slow down mentally. You have more time than you realize.
Break the glueup into smaller sequences in your mind and move in a practiced methodical manner.

One more word of advice.. Epoxy.
Pick the right epoxy resin and hardner combination and you have time to start the glueup,reheat your coffee, get the dog back in the yard, and still get the glueup done without a hitch.

Don't bum yourself out too much. Every woodworker has done the same thing.

[Sam Yerardi]

Jason

Are you sure you haven't been working in my shop? :)

[Peter Quinn]

They put gremlins in the glue...I've seen it..and I'm pretty sure a voodoo priestess puts a hex on it so you'll ruin things, have to make more things and buy more glue. :D

We used to keep TBIII in the fridge for a few hours before glue ups in the summer to slow down its setup time, because a 3min open time at 85 degrees doesn't leave much room for adjustment.

Sub-assemblies, clamps in place ready to go, dry fits, dry heaves, bigger hammer, bigger glue brush, bigger assembly table...none of these are a substitute for PMA..proper mental attitude...glue ups are like quick sand..the faster you move the faster you sink. Slow down and enjoy your self, like a walk in the park, not a run up a hill.

[Richard M. Wolfe]

I made a smart a-- post about glueups a bit back (smart alecky but true).

What I would have to say about glueups? Use an adequate size assembly surface. Do a dry fit to check to see that everything will go together OK. For the glueup itself: Lay everything to be assembled out in a logical pattern - kinda like an exploded diagram. Have all materials needed close at hand - glue, biscuits if you're using them, water bottle and paper towels to clean up, clamps,mallet, etc. Then do the glueup and try to be efficent; don't rush but don't 'lollygag'. Try to use the proper amount of glue. If anything most are guilty of using too much glue and when the joint is clamped together the squeeze-out may not go everywhere but it will go where you least want it. :) This got me to thinking and I can say that I don't ever remember making a joint with too little glue and having it fail but I do apply glue to both surfaces. Also, I haven't ever heard of a failure from too little elsewhere. Just a little dab of properly set-up glue on properly mating surfaces is incredibly strong.

[Bert Johansen]

Jason, everybody is right about relaxing, but the problem you have is not going to get better just because you TRY HARDER! (Try telling someone in the midst of a colonoscopy to "relax." Sure!) You are under a lot of stress and each time you have another stressful glue-up it gets worse.

My advice, and this is based on successful personal experience, is find someone nearby who teaches EFT (Emotional Freedom Technique). Gary Craig (www.emofree.com) lists practitioners on his web site. My better half teaches it in Central Texas. (www.transforminglight.com) This really works, it is permanent, and one session is usually enough. Powerful stuff. Really!

[Jason Scott]

thanks guys, yes you are right, looking back, and "hindsight is always 20/20, I see a few things that would have helped a bunch. The most important like a couple of you mentioned is an adequate assembly table...I have decided I am building a nice workbench/table for my next project, I am tired of using a 2'X4' area, it is unstable and too small...Plus it is really light and has tipped on me before :eek: Thanks for all the replies, by the way, I used the alcohol/fire trick to relax the fibers of the massive dent the concrete floor caused, plus I sanded all the other corners to match and it looks great, I got really lucky this time, or blessed by the Lord (Happy Easter by the way), so I'll be routing the top and finishing this week, hope to have some pictures up, thanks again!

Jason

[J. Z. Guest]

Jason, it gets better with more experience.

I just finished gluing up the 3rd & 4th panels for a pair of nightstands I'm working on, and they are much better than the first two.

Dowelmax has made glue-ups much less stressful, as there are no alignment issues. I don't need slow-set glue either.

[glenn bradley]

I used the alcohol/fire trick to relax the fibers of the massive dent the concrete floor caused,

Alcohol and fire? I missed this one. A damp rag and a steam iron will recover surprisingly severe dents.

[Jesse Cloud]

Hey Jason,
A couple of things I do that helps:

1)Get some sort of container and keep all your glue-up stuff together in that container: glue, brushes, paper towels, plastic cup for water, scraper, wax paper, anything else you use.

2)Have a couple more clamps handy than you used in the dry fit - you will need them, I promise

3)During the dry fit, draw a triangle across the boards to mark their position - can't tell you what a bummer it is to get a board in the wrong order or to even have to think about it during glue up.

4)Have everything in place, exactly where you will be reaching for it, always facing the same way - don't have to think about whether the clamp goes heads up or heads down, don't have to turn back the handle on the clamp, have all the pieces of wood sitting in the orientation you will use them.

5)Ask for help. I attend woodworking classes at a local community college and for a really complicated glue up, we may have half a dozen people working together. Its especially useful to have someone to loosen clamps just a little while you are coaxing that board into alignment with its neighbor.

[Quesne Ouaques]

I hear you and I share your pain. I find that something always happens that I thought I had thought of, or had prepared for.

I did recently take my own version of Yoshikuni's advice, and it helped a great deal. Two weeks ago I was gluing up the legs for a coffee table project: a multi-level, interlaced pattern of walnut and padouk. Very big-deal project for me....lots of time already invested preparing the stock, dimensioning, etc.

I was understandably nervous, and literally could not afford to screw up, so....

I consciously slowed down and wrote out each phase on paper including a little sketch of the desired wood pattern in cross section for each step. Also, I decided to cut all of my dimensions about 10% oversized so as to reduce the risk of loss from "glue slide".

The experience was much less stress than normal, though it did take more time on the front end. Of course, I did NOT screw up and require a total redo an any of the pieces, which helped!

I do recognize, however, that I will need to continue to think first and force myself to do this each time. My natural inclination is to just forge ahead, grab those clamps and get started. The whole point here is to change my natural inclination from what
I would normally do to something that gives a better result and reduces my stress. I hope it continues to work for me!

[Doug Shepard]

Sometimes you can also get away with putting glue on one side of parts of a sub-assembly and doing the other side as a dry-fit. Once the first side has cured, tap the loose side back off and apply glue to it and re-clamp. Really complicated ones really help with an extra pair of hands and a practice run-through with them so they understand the sequence and where glue needs to be brushed on.

[Greg Cole]

Alcohol and fire? I\
As in have a beer and burn the pirce you just ruined? :D;):rolleyes:

I do pick my spots-times for clues ups/ I usually do'em early in the day, I find I have more attention to details and have a more clear head. I don't hurry as much either for some reason. I also can watch the glue to set up for scraping off. Yoshi's advice is very sage indeed much like the Nascar race as Bristol, "ya gotta slow down a little to be fast". As in if ya go too fast on the straight away, ya give up speed in the corner.. if ya follow.

Cheers,

Greg