Karl Holtey $5000 ?!?!

[Grant Vanbokklen]

Why would you pay nearly $5000 for a new plane?

I just found this plane maker, the pricing seems very high.

http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/karl_holtey_tools.htm

How many professional woodworkers out there would find this tool a must have? Is this plane that much better than others?

[Ken Werner]

I'd guess it is for a person with a very great deal of money, and not someone earning a living in wood, unless it is the extremely rare individual who does both. [Can't think of any.]

[Steve Rozmiarek]

You'd think for $5000, the plane wouldn't look like the handles where in danger of falling off with any excuse at all. Suppose that is more art than tool? Looks to me like it has the a slightly abstract infulence.....:D

[Mark Stutz]

While I don't have one, I've heard that they do indeed function wonderfully. Karl traditionally made mostly infills, and has just started making some of his own design. They are hand made works of art. Does one NEED one...depends on discretionary funds. Lots of things out there for sale...cars, guns, tools, boats,etc. that we don't really need, but are fun to have.:D

[George Sanders]

There will always be those with more money than sense.:rolleyes:

[Doug Shepard]

Why would you pay nearly $5000 for a new plane?
...


The same reason some people pay $kaching$ for Maseratis, Porsches, Hummers, etc. Some people just want to buy the best whether they need it nor not. I'm hoping to meet a Maserati drivin babe who wants to buy me a Holtey for Christmas.:D

[Roy Hatch]

On one of the financial shows, I heard a wealthy person described as one who has 100 million or more. If I were wealthy, I would probably buy one as $5000 would be pocket change.

In the meantime I wonder if just as many of these planes would be sold if the price were $7500 or $10,000? That would tend to make them more exclusive.

Roy

[Mike K Wenzloff]

...How many professional woodworkers out there would find this tool a must have? Is this plane that much better than others?
The only full-timer I know that owns a Holtey (actually more than one) is Garrett Hack. Pretty much a professional, eh?

Karl was the first real perfectionist machinist making planes. But he's no longer the only one. nor is he the only one making higher-priced quality planes. Konrad Sauer and Wayne Anderson come to mind. I love the traditional perfection of Konrad's planes and the shear artistic beauty of Wayne's.

I find the conversations over the cost of tools from such makers funny at times. Just what should a man (generic usage btw) earn from his toils? Should he make $10 an hour (or less) so that he can hit a more popular price-point? $20 an hour? $30/hr? More? What exactly would be a fair wage so that they can make the tools they desire to make?

Ah, rant off I suppose.

Take care, Mike
back to lurking--well, actually back to work.

[Ryan Hovis]

I would like to see it compared side by side with a Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen low angle plane. My bet is that it would make the exact same shavings.

[Chris Padilla]

The Holtey infill planes are SO HEAVY. You feel like if you just give it a tiny push that it'll carve its own way through anything below it.

They really are so heavy, so bloody smooth...amazing planes to feel, touch, and cut with. I certainly don't have one but an affluent buddy of mine does and he lets me play with it on occasion.

Why did he pay 3-4-5k for his? Well, because he can afford it and because he simply loves collecting planes of all varieties and can appreciate the handwork that went into making it. Each to their own.

[Jim Koepke]

I just found this plane maker, the pricing seems very high.

Maybe this will put some perspective on those Stanley #4s that go for more than $20 on that auction site that shall not be named.

Just my 2¢

jim

[Derek Cohen]

Like Mike, I am always amused when there is talk of extravagance when spending Big Bucks on tools. What constitutes BB? What is a lot for some is reasonable for another.

It is also a matter of priorities - how much should one spend on a motorcar? And would you rather spend on a motorcar or tools or XYZ?

There is also the assumption that expensive tools reduce profit. But what if profit is not part of the equation, and instead fun and pleasure is?

What would you spend on a set of golf clubs, or a tennis racquet?

When I was racing on the windsurfing circuits, I used to get new boards (usually one, sometimes 2 or even three) every year, plus a set of 4 or 5 sails. This was considerably more costly than woodworking. And I am not wealthy .... just obsessional :) I do have one rule, however .. all my costs must be born by my profits from or efforts in woodworking (keep in mind that I am not a professional woodworker).

Are the supertools worth it? (I suppose one should also ask "what constitutes a supertool?").

I love my half back Wenzloff saw (and I could include the IT dovetai saw that Mike re-filed for me - that makes it half-a-Wenzloff :) ). Wenzloff saws must be the cheapest supertools on the market.

There is a law of diminishing returns as the price goes up. But you still get what ou pay for. The Marcou S15 smoother I have is the best smoother I have ever used. It is simply phenomenal. Others here have used one as well (Hi Mark!). It is beautifully made and a special experience to use. The LV BUS is a superb smoother and gives the Marcou a run for its money. However the Marcou is still that much better when the chips are down.

So who buys a Holtey? There are those that do so for art sake, and there are those that buy them as tools.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Narayan Nayar]

The premium toolmarket seems to have blossomed of late. Not sure why that is--perhaps the cost of working metal in something other than an industrial facility has come down enough. But though I'll probably never own one of those planes, I'm sure glad they are around and there are still people, like Mike, like Konrad, like Jim Leamy, like Thomas L-N, and many others dedicated to artisanal craftsmanship.

As others have already said, $5,000 isn't a lot of money given the time put into making those tools. And you know that people pay a lot more than that for other works of art. Might not make a lot of sense to those of us without the disposable income, but if your gauge for "sensible cost" is just above something which offers sheer utility, it probably doesn't make sense to you that anyone would buy anything other than Ikea furniture. People like Mr. Lie-Nielsen have found ways to balance production runs with cost and quality. Others work to order and their costs generally go up (and if they don't, well, they're doing you an extreme favor, right Mike? :) ).

Anyway, I'm just beginning to explore this small universe of domestic, small production toolmakers. It'll be some time before I can afford or justify something like a Holtey, and chances are I'll never get there. But even beyond the tools themselves, I'll never cease to admire the dedication and passion these individuals bring to their craft. The artifacts fashioned out of these toolmakers' blood, sweat, and tears make me want to be better at what I do, both at work and in my shop. I for one am very glad that these tools and the people who can afford them exist, if only to show the rest of us that quality and craft can still mean something tangible in this increasingly mass production world.

[Mike Henderson]

Even though this is the Neander forum, I'd buy a SawStop before I bought one of those planes. That plane doesn't retract it's blade if it hits your skin.:)

But seriously, I'd get a lot more use out of the SawStop.

Mike

[Steve knight]

5000 is on the lower end of his scale. I know guys that own several of his planes.
I see people spend that much on stupid accessories for their cars. far more other things that are nor more useful. what about collectors that spend bucks just to have the item sit around?
I have spoken to Karl a couple of times and he is a nice guy. he only averages 1 plane or so a month. his shop cost him over 100k but he has to make 20 sets of plane parts at a time because of setup times. so he has to sit on all of this material for long periods of time.

[Dan Racette]

I think that Derek and Mike have hit it on the head.

First off. I am sure that Mr. Holtey would gladly accept money from non-woodworkers, so us woodworkers need to get it out of our heads that he might be only making planes especially for us. His planes are beautiful. I find it quite amusing and somewhat shortsighted to even try and "compare" his planes to commercial brands, mass produced planes of yesteryear, and the like. I am thinking that a $5000 plane, might have an inventory level of less than 10. Whereas others that have been mentioned that are less than a $100 are in the 1000's.

I know of a company that was going to pull the trigger on his plane for use in a prop in a commercial. $5000, would not have been a big deal for their budget. The focus of the commercial changed and they didn't buy it.

Now back to the original poster. The price of these planes is, indeed, extraordinarily high. I doubt I will have the resources to afford one in my lifetime. There are many other things out there that are also luxuries. That's why we call them luxuries. I commend Mr. Holtey's ability to stay in business, as that is actually the true challenge.

Sam Maloof make's chairs. The run upwards of $30,000. You can buy a chair that you can sit on for a few dollars at many places. You don't often hear people criticizing him for charging to much. He is an artist too.

The arts and crafts are a tricky thing. Those who craft things, try to charge what the market can bear. I have discussed this at length with many crafters. Often times a marked price is negotiated down, much to the dismay of the craftsperson. Many times, this makes the pay of the crafter much less than a regular worker's hourly wage, as others have stated.

Most of us buy from corporation that manage a large sector of our economy. They control costs through mass production and mechanization, with the end goal to get the price to the consumer to be palatable so demand will be high. A single craftsperson often times does not have the means to do that, as there is not the division of labor, or the inefficiencies that come with a corporation, or the massive volume of scale.

Mr. Holtey, I assume, because he is still marketing product, is still thriving in business. I think that's a great accomplishment these days. If he were to ever be "bought out", then comes the compromising, all to lower price. Right now, he seems to be at the "no compromise" stage, and the cost of product reflects that. As someone mentioned, our beloved plane man, Garret Hack, is an owner of his product. He probably HAS to have one, so he can compare to the rest of his repetoire of planes.

I would disagree, though, that his planes make the same shavings as others. I am sure that the no compromise manufacturing, and the sheer heft of the body would make these giants glide across wood with much greater ease than as lighter stanley, lie nielsen, lee valley, etc. This goes to the arguement of why the norris/spiers/ type of Infill planes are such sought after smoothers vs. american planes and why they continue to fetch a high price, even when duplicated.

I would agree with some posters, that $5000 is best spent elsewhere, but that is just a personal choice of using one's resources and not an infringement on Mr. Holtey's right to charge that much or his ability to price appropriately for his product.

Dan

[Billy Chambless]

Why would you pay nearly $5000 for a new plane?


Well, I wouldn't. but I'm glad people do so I don't feel bad about spending $50 on a plane. ;)

[Eddie Darby]

And when the making of Holtey planes stops, for whatever reason, the value of the planes goes up.
I doubt the odds of finding one of these planes in a garage sale for $5 will be all that favourable.

[Brian Kent]

5000 is on the lower end of his scale. I know guys that own several of his planes.
I see people spend that much on stupid accessories for their cars.

You got me Steve.

I have a normal middle class income, but I spent an extra $7,000 to get the sedan with the trim level & features I wanted over the same car with the features I needed. That's more than all the power tools, hand tools, wood, and shop improvements I've ever paid for.

Another thing Steve, the planes you make (and Lie Nielsen and Lee Valley) suddenly seem like super bargains instead of just fair-priced.:D

Brian

[Johnny Kleso]

I'm friendly with Karl and his planes are made beyond what most others do to finish a plane..

It's like why would someone spend $200,000 on a Rolls Royce when you can buy a Lincoln for $35,000

I think that most people that buy them are collectors who whant the best..

Here is a link to Karl's site for thos what want to look at the planes..
Myself I just look, I dont have deep pockets :)

http://www.holteyplanes.com/planes.htm

[Thom Sturgill]

Craftsmanship of this level takes years of work to develop and an investment in shop equipment and expenses as well. I saw a bit on a man in California that makes violin bows. He only makes about one week and get upwards of $5K each. Once you figure his labor, shop costs, sales help, etc. he makes a good living, but is probably not getting rich. While I do not expect to ever buy a $5K bow, or plane, I appreciate that they need to get that price when doing one off production.

Some time look at the original sale prices of tools from the 'collectible era' and the prevailing wage of the times. You might be surprised how much those tools cost in terms of how long it took to earn the money to buy them.

[Matt Bickford]

"I would like to see it compared side by side with a Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen low angle plane. My bet is that it would make the exact same shavings."

When these debates come up this is always my favorite quote (somebody always writes this), I often wonder if these people are just threatened because they no longer own the "best" plane on the market. Lets compare a LV or LN to an old $20 stanley. The differences are small when comparing end results on wood we tend to work.

[John Shuk]

It'll last longer than what Elliot Spitzer spent his $4300 on.
Some people have the bucks and it really is a gorgeous plane.

[Marcus Ward]

The premium toolmarket seems to have blossomed of late. Not sure why that is

All boutique markets are up, amplifiers, bicycles, anything custom made that is ridiculously priced. It's because there is a glut of disposable income and credit in the american consumer market, and tons of people who purchase prestige products. For a lot of people, the shorthand to determine value is the cost, and so when they're sitting around in their escalades on their cel phones bragging to their friends bout their 5000$ plane they have a way of indicating the value of the plane to their superficial friends. Frankly I find it all disgusting. I can't believe that plane makes a smoother surface than a well tuned stanley. And that IS what it is all about, the surface it leaves. Those of you who always claim a plane makes nice shavings well... my boat makes a nice wake, but that's not the purpose of the boat and measuring it's performance that way is goofy. </rant>

[Mark Singer]

The Hotleys, Marcou's and other fine planes are a joy to use. I have had the pleasure of reviewing the Marcou. These planes are terrific not really everyday users in my opinion. Not something you must have to be a great woodworker or even produce great pieces of furniture. There is a lot of factors in the hand planing of wood as I point out in my review. For most of us a $300 smoother or even a $150 ECE is plenty of plane. Learning how and when is a completely different subject. See the review below...

http://www.marcouplanes.com/reviews/marcouR/marcou1.asp

[Steve Wargo]

I'll chime in on this one... as I usually due. There is a difference between the Holtey and a Lie Nielsen. I've had the opportunity to play with a few Holteys, Anderson, Sauer and Stiener (which I own *Drive by Gloat*) and many of the other infill plane makers of today. There is a definite difference in performance, finish of the surface, feel and over all feeling you get from using these planes. They are not for everyone, I have a full stable of LN bench planes. They are great. They perform as they should, but they pale in comparison to most of the high-end infills I've used. Now believe me when I say that the difference is not the same as between say a Craftsman handyman and a LN smoother, but there is a difference. If you've used one of these fine planes then you understand why they're purchased. I've never talked to anyone who's used a Holtey, Sauer and Steiner or the likes and not said "WOW, I'd like to have one of those". The problem lies in the cost. If they were the same price as a LN then many corners would be cut to create such works of art. I know for a fact that the infill for many of the planes alone can cost $200-$400 just for the stock. And we still haven't started making the plane yet. So they certainly have a purpose. For some they are eye candy, for others they get regular use in the shop. IMHO some of them are worth the money and others are not. I'm rambling now, so I'll go. But if anyone's ever in the Cleveland area you're more than welcome to stop over and compare the difference.

[Johnny Kleso]

Here is a picture of the old master and his and my friend Ian Dalziel also a very good plane maker...

I'm still learning rules so I hope its OK to post their picture, I think some folks might enjoy seeing the face behind the works or art..

http://stanleytools.home.comcast.net/karl_ian.jpg

[Eddie Darby]

The problem lies in the cost. If they were the same price as a LN then many corners would be cut to create such works of art.

I would guess that IF for some reason they were the same price as a LN then someone would complain about that. :eek: Then maybe we would see LN planes in garage sales.:rolleyes:

A few years back LN posted on there site the pics of the new building that was going up to try and reach the demand for there products. It would seem that somehow people are finding the money to upgrade there planes, or they are starting out with top end planes. I would also bet that they will need to build a new building soon.

Yet last time I checked Forbes magazine, I didn't see any plane makers making the list.:) Is it possible that market forces are at work to diminish the profits?

I am pretty sure that a VW will get you to the corner store just as fast as a high octane Italian sports car, due too the speed limit, however I think you will have a better overall investment with the Italian sports car when it comes time to unload it.
Unless of course you go bankrupt, and the bank seizes everything, and then holds a garage sale in your former driveway.:D

What Holtey owners will miss is the sense of accomplishment of fettling a plane into shape. Just as the owners of those Italian ponies will miss out on bondo work that VW owners love to do so much.

"The better the tool, the better the job."

[Chuck Hamman]

Grant,
I think his jointer goes for around $17,000.00. But it is a thing of beauty,as are all his planes. You need to check out his site. He also sells kits.

-Chuck

[Philip Glover]

I do not have a Holtey, but wish I did. They are beautiful tools.
Besides, there are a lot worse things to spend that kind of money on. Just ask the former governor of New York.

Phil

[Roger Bell]

There will always be those with more money than sense.:rolleyes:

I couldn't agree more.

In any bar, you can see guys who earn low wages "squandering" $20 a night/5 nights a week. That's $5200/yr. That's their pleasure and their prerogative.

This is America.

We's entitled to whatever pleasures we can pay for and that we can justify to our superficial friends. And we's don't need to apologize to no one for it.

[Michael Gibbons]

I'm going to gold plate my Unisaw. That should make it work better.

[Phil Thien]

On one of the financial shows, I heard a wealthy person described as one who has 100 million or more. If I were wealthy, I would probably buy one as $5000 would be pocket change.

In the meantime I wonder if just as many of these planes would be sold if the price were $7500 or $10,000? That would tend to make them more exclusive.

Roy

If you look elsewhere on his site, he has planes for in excess of $7000.

"Sorry kids, dad spent your college funds on a collection of planes." :eek:

[Mike Cutler]

It's funny that we always want to develop a cost benefit equation to justify things like the Holtey plane, which is the object of this thread.

I used to always feel compelled to justify the cost of my bicycles. Most of which cost as much, if not more, as that Holtey plane. But it came down to enjoyment. I put over 200,000 miles on my bikes in my cycling career, and riding bikes like Lotus, Hotta, Corima, Colnagos Lightspeed, Cervelo, etc enhanced that career.
Could I have gone just as fast on a Scwhinn or a Fuji? No I couldn't have. My bikes were purpose specific, they weren't made to just get from point A to point B. They were made to get there as fast as humanly possible. You could ride a rail blindfolded on any of my bikes, and if you couldn't, it wasn't the bikes fault. They were built to be perfect, no compromise tools.
Those bikes were also "door openers" and "conversation starters". I met a alot of great people that just wanted to ask questions about those bikes, or maybe take a spin around the parking lot just to be able to say they had ridden one. They enhanced my racing career off the bike as well.

A bicycle is two wheels, a frame and some components. A plane is a blade that exists in a fixed geometry with some components.
The individual quality of the components in each can have a dramatic effect on the outcome, experience, and pleasure derived from use in either example.

Steve Wargo
I wished I live closer. I'd be taking you up on your offer.;)

[Rob Lee]

Hi -

Yes - it's certainly an expensive plane.... but while the price tag makes it a very considered purchase decision - once you put it in perspective, it's not so bad...

It's 50 tanks of gas...
It's hockey tickets for a year
It's aluminum rims on an upscale car


But none of the above are worth anything once used - the Holtey will retain it's value (or most of it!) for the foreseeable future...and, it's a tool that can be used for a lifetime (or two). Add to that the craftsmanship/art aspect - and it's really not as outrageous as it looks...

It's definitely not a purchase for everyone - but certainly not conspicuous consumption either...


Rob Lee

(yes - we have one too!....)

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

HA HA HA The other night watching High Net Worth There was a cheezy (but pretty) music stand made from sculpted wood.
The price: $250,000.00

Don't chya all just know that any one here could have made that stand in an afternoon.

[Jim Koepke]

All boutique markets are up, amplifiers, bicycles, anything custom made that is ridiculously priced. It's because there is a glut of disposable income and credit in the american consumer market, and tons of people who purchase prestige products. For a lot of people, the shorthand to determine value is the cost, and so when they're sitting around in their escalades on their cel phones bragging to their friends bout their 5000$ plane they have a way of indicating the value of the plane to their superficial friends. Frankly I find it all disgusting.

These are the people who may buy the tool and never or rarely use it. All they know is bling and flash.


I can't believe that plane makes a smoother surface than a well tuned stanley. And that IS what it is all about, the surface it leaves. Those of you who always claim a plane makes nice shavings well... my boat makes a nice wake, but that's not the purpose of the boat and measuring it's performance that way is goofy. </rant>

Yes, the surface is what it's all about. I know I am one to savor transparent thin shavings. They would mean nothing and not be mentioned if they were accompanied by tear out and a rough surface. My planes include one or two that would not sell well because of cracks and other problems. These little ugly ducklings can sure put a shine on oak and pine and the woods in between.

A Stanley 4 was rusty and not much japanning was left. After cleaning it and a couple coats of enamel, I noticed it is a lot more comfortable (pleasurable) to use than the planes in the shop with "scruffy" surfaces.
It may motivate me to restore some of the other planes in my accumulation.

Some of those high dollar planes look nice. If that kind of money was available to me to spend on a plane, there would be more enjoyment had by making it myself. Since there is not unlimited funds at my disposal, one of the things I have thought of for retirement is to play around with making a few planes.

Like the high end automobile, there are some creature comforts that are just not found in my 1986 Toyota.

With time and learning, maybe it will be possible to make my own plane with all the creature comforts of a super high dollar plane.

jim

[Grant Vanbokklen]

There will always be those with more money than sense.:rolleyes:

I guess if you've got the money. Not a bad hobby to spend it on.

I'd like to say I did not start this thread to put the plane maker down at all. For sure he is a very good craftsman.

I just thought it to be a little off that a very good 10" table saw could go for less. I mean how long does it take to make a plane like these with the modern tools that are available? These planes are definitely not priced for the majority of woodworkers that love the craft.

But they are pretty cool. Makes me appreciate LV and LN planes more Looking recently at how much people are bidding on planes with rust...

http://karlholtey.com/a13_pic1.jpg

[Brian Kent]

Some time look at the original sale prices of tools from the 'collectible era' and the prevailing wage of the times. You might be surprised how much those tools cost in terms of how long it took to earn the money to buy them.

That idea is interesting. Have you ever seen any figures to play with - on tool costs and cabinet maker wages?

[Matt Bickford]

Grant, How long do you think it takes to make this plane? Give us a guess. I bet somebody here will have the answer.

[Derek Cohen]

I just thought it to be a little off that a very good 10" table saw could go for less. I mean how long does it take to make a plane like these with the modern tools that are available? These planes are definitely not priced for the majority of woodworkers that love the craft.

Since I rarely use a tablesaw (although I do have a good one), one of Karl's planes would definitely get more use in my workshop! :)

How long to make one? At least a month. Karl has a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of specialist machinery to aid in getting to the most exacting specifications. But a human drives these. There is no magic automation. He is the perfectionist's perfectionist! His is not a quick product aimed at a fast buck.

No, these planes are not for the majority. But then neither are LN and LV. I wonder what percentage of woodworkers on this handtool forum are professionals. And of that group, what percentage use LN and LV? This is not a put down in any way whatsoever - just a reminder that woodworkers come from all parts of the income range, and the way in which one finds enjoyment of woodworking varies just as much. A great tool does not make a great woodworker, but then neither does a crappy one.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Grant Vanbokklen]

Grant, How long do you think it takes to make this plane? Give us a guess. I bet somebody here will have the answer.

Well I do think that someone with good AutoCad and some plane designing skills could have all the parts milled and polished for them by a few machine shops. I'd guess almost all of those parts could be done CNC, I'd have to go back and look to see if anything is casted.

My guess is 4hrs per plane if one person had all the tools (expensive) and skills once the AutoCad was drawn up. That could take a good AutoCad guy a day or so.

That's my quick guess.

[Matt Bickford]

I bet you're off by 100+ hours.

[Rob Lee]

I bet you're off by 100+ hours.

And I'll bet you can multiply that by several times...:eek:

Karl makes these in batches, and the smallest flaw will trash a plane...

Take a look at the exploded drawings on his website.. the sole plate, with the round pins is machined from a solid piece! His work is so tightly toleranced that the method of construction is virutually undetectable in the finished product... it's a virtuoso exhibition of machining skill, in a very unforgiving material...

http://karlholtey.com/no98_pic7.htm

Cheers -

Rob

[Grant Vanbokklen]

I bet you're off by 100+ hours.

Now he's gunna raise his prices? ;)

[Michael Gibbons]

If Holtey can get paid the prices he's asking, the more power to him. How many Creekers own one? Not many I would imagine. I just went and added up all the prices in the Lie-Nielsen catalog and you can get 1 of everything (planes that is) for $9584. I wonder what Holtey charge for 3/4 in chisel? $575?:eek: We had a heated thread a while back in which I asked what brand of planes does everyone own. Some felt ousted because I didn't include a few brands in which Holtey was one. I don't recall anyone putting in a absentee ballot for Holtey since it's not mainstream. It's just simply too expensive for the average Creeker.

[Derek Cohen]

Michael

Your comments make huge assumptions about who the Mr Average Woodworker is, about the value system of the potential Holtey customer, and that $575 for a chisel is a lot of money.

First off, when you compare the cost of one Holtey plane against the collective range of the LN planes you are assuming that the respective customers have the same concept of perceived value. Someone who is prepared to spend tens of thousands for a single plane is NOT thinking about whether they missed the boat and should have bought LN instead! :)

Chisels? Well there are a great many (especially Japanese) chisels that sell for hundreds of dollars each. Tasai here are around the mid three hundred mark:
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=05%2E302%2E30&dept_id=12776

Sets of 10 selling for $2500 are really not uncommon. Have a look at the website of So .... http://www.japan-tool.com/

The point I am making is that anyone in the market for tools in this price range is less interested in value-for-money, and to appreciate where they are coming from you have to step into their shoes. The advantage of this for oneself is that you shift your focus past the sticker shock and begin to appreciate the craftsmanship and the beauty of the tool itself.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Eddie Darby]

While we are all concerned about wasting money, and well we should be, some people have put up their nose this week-end more than a Holtey's worth of cocaine.
As I understand it, the drop in the U.S. dollar will mean that drug habits will cost more now.
Hey do you smoke? Two pack a day man? Then say good-bye to your Holtey.

[Grant Vanbokklen]

The point I am making is that anyone in the market for tools in this price range is less interested in value-for-money, and to appreciate where they are coming from you have to step into their shoes. The advantage of this for oneself is that you shift your focus past the sticker shock and begin to appreciate the craftsmanship and the beauty of the tool itself.

I agree with your comments. If I had the 100's of millions, I might probably buy one. If I had 100's of millions I would probably most definitely have the complete Lie-Neilsen collection though.

[Don C Peterson]

I don't see ever spending that kind of money for a plane, but I'd sure like to have the option...;)

There's something that really bothers me about these type of threads though. If you, like me, can't see spending that kind of money for a plane, that's fine, but it strikes me as pretty arrogant to state or imply that there is some sort of moral deficiency that leads one to do so. What difference does it make to anyone else if someone finds a Holtey or Anderson plane worth their money? Who cares if there are people that buy a Holtey and never use them? There are many people who spend much more than that for art that to my eye, is far inferior. Conversely there is no inherent virtue in buying flea market planes for $5. Value is in the eye of the beholder.

[Johnny Kleso]

I just thought it to be a little off that a very good 10" table saw could go for less. I mean how long does it take to make a plane like these with the modern tools that are available?


I bought a HF Morticer for $99 and about two years ago Hartville tools had a great sale on Two Cherries mortice chisels and they where $199 :)

I work for 35+ years making machines as a tool makers and I race any one, me making four chisels and them a morticing machie :)

I also think I must have been crazy to buy those chisels but like Rob said, how much would a used HF morticer go for against Two Cherries chisels 2030 year do the road..

Karl and Ian are the DaVinci's of planes in this day I feel.. You cant go wrong with the best...

[Raney Nelson]

My guess is 4hrs per plane if one person had all the tools (expensive) and skills once the AutoCad was drawn up. That could take a good AutoCad guy a day or so.

That's my quick guess.

I had to laugh at this. 4 hours? To me, this is the exact equivalent of someone looking at a Philadelphia Highboy and guessing it probably takes 20 or so hours to make, so why should it cost so much? "I mean, someone who's good with a compucarve could finish the trimwork in about two to three hours max, right? And what is there - maybe four sheets of MDF used in that piece? I suppose the veneer might be a little expensive, but personally I'll stick with my IKEA Billy Bookshelves.."

Now, I have nothing against IKEA and have owned some Billy bookshelves in my college days. But I still find it amusing when someone suggests that really good furniture is grossly overpriced because they assume it can't take much longer than a mass-produced piece.

I think Holtey is probably making a reasonably good living, but I sincerely doubt he's building any kind of financial empire given the time it takes to make these, and the volumes he can deal in.

[Michael Gibbons]

Derek, I am not making any greatly generalized assumptions about anyone. Out of the few thousands of woodworkers that are registered here on Sawmill Creek, what percentage of them have Holtey-or other small scale plane makers-planes that cost that much? If a woodworker takes a LN 4 1/2 and a Holtey 4 1/2 and sharpens the blades exactley the same way then planes a section on a common board, will you see a $4,500 difference in the finished piece? Remember that a majority here think LN is out of their reach financialy, hence the large number of threads in this forum pertaining to restoring or finding flea market finds. Now I'm going to e-mail Santa Clause and put my request in for an infill smoother since he'll have to put his name on the waiting list... for Christmas 2012:D

[Steve Evans]

I'll gladly spend my money on Karls, and Konrad's, and hopefully in the future. some of Jim Leamy's and Wayne Anderson's planes, long before I'll buy a standard half million dollar cookie cutter mcmansion, surrounded by identical half million dollar cookie cutter mcmansions. Why that allows my priorities to be villified and belittled, I have no idea. I guess I should spend my money on cigarettes and booze and watching Nascar, and then I could show my face in public.

Quick cost breakdown

Nascar Weekend

(not meaning to bash Nascar enthusiasts)

up to $1500-$3000

Smokes

pack a day approx $1000

Booze

twice/week $30 visit

$1800

There goes $4-$6 grand. But for some reason that's acceptable. I guess it's because it's you have nothing physical in the end (other than lung cancer/cirhossis/ and probably some hearing damage).
End of my one and only rant on this.

[Eddie Darby]

Now I'm going to e-mail Santa Clause and put my request in for an infill smoother since he'll have to put his name on the waiting list... for Christmas 2012:D

I think that there is some kind of 'clause' that Santa Claus has that needs to be met before you qualify for a gift. Something about being 'knotty' or nice.
Do you think you can pull that one off before 2012???:D

[vincent nobel]

I have seen some of Karl's planes and I would absolutely love to have some. They are absolutely beautiful, and, I have been told, work wonderfully too.

For those of you in the US the price will only increase the way the US dollar is going, but it is true, these planes are beyond the means of almost any furniture maker, also here in Europe.

[Ron Dunn]

Not just a tool, but a work of art.

Sadly for me there are just too many other priorities on my spending list before I get anywhere near that tool ... and being brutally honest, until my skills get better it would be like putting a Stradivarius in a primary school orchestra.

[mike holden]

You know, if I bought a corvette, porsche, viper, etc. No one would say I was wasting my money. But I could outfit a nice workshop, including a sawstop and a selection of Holtey planes for the cost of one of those cars!
Just like a corvette, an econobox, gets you from place to place.
Just like a vintage stanley, a Holtey takes fine shavings.
If I prefer to drive a corvette or use a Holtey, and it doesnt keep food off the table or affect the roof over my family's heads - why should that matter?
It is a gorgeous tool, and if you can afford it, and it makes you feel good using it - then go for it! And please let me try it when I drop by!
Mike

[Mike Cutler]

3 1/2 week trip to Australia. Started in Sydney and just went where the wind blew us. $10-12K, and worth every dime. I'd do it again tomorrow.
All I brought back was a boomerang and a hat.

My god what a beautiful country.

It's all relative folks.

[Rob Lee]

(snip) All I brought back was a boomerang .... (snip)



...'course you brought it back.... how do you throw away a boomerang???:D:D

Cheers -

Rob
(adding no more value to this discussion....)

[Steve Wargo]

I would also wager that the percentage of people in this forum that own those planes is higher than you think. I'll bet the percentage is much closer to 5% than 1%. While that's not a high percentage... that's a lot of people. I know of 8 to 10 on this forum that own them, and I don't know nearly everyone that contributes on this forum.

[Billy Chambless]

There's something that really bothers me about these type of threads though. If you, like me, can't see spending that kind of money for a plane, that's fine, but it strikes me as pretty arrogant to state or imply that there is some sort of moral deficiency that leads one to do so. What difference does it make to anyone else if someone finds a Holtey or Anderson plane worth their money? Who cares if there are people that buy a Holtey and never use them? There are many people who spend much more than that for art that to my eye, is far inferior. Conversely there is no inherent virtue in buying flea market planes for $5. Value is in the eye of the beholder.


Well said!

It reminds me of George Carlin's bit about how people who drive faster than you are maniacs, and people who drive slower are idiots -- it's all perspective.

Of course, woodworking, like most pursuits, is subject to One True Way disease.

And this whole discussion is silly, because REAL WOODWORKERS MAKE THEIR OWN PLANES!!!

[Derek Cohen]

...'course you brought it back.... how do you throw away a boomerang???:D:D

Cheers -

Rob
(adding no more value to this discussion....)


I once threw one away ... then I threw it away again ... and again ....and again ....and again ...and again............................................. .................................................. ................................... :)


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Cutler]

...'course you brought it back.... how do you throw away a boomerang???:D:D

Cheers -

Rob
(adding no more value to this discussion....)


I also still have about $50.00 Australian for the cab fare from the airport, when I next get back there.

Funny thing about that boomerang was that it was a gift for a co-worker.
I had to bring it through the security screening check point at the nuclear power plant we both work at to give it to him. Needless to say, it generated a little discussion.:eek:

[Marcus Ward]

but it strikes me as pretty arrogant to state or imply that there is some sort of moral deficiency that leads one to do so.

There are kids in just a few miles from you (as if distance makes a difference) who can't afford the basic necessities of life and you would spend 5 grand on plane? Yes, that is morally deficient. I'd like to think Americans used to care about their fellow man more, but I think it might just be nostalgia for a past that never existed.

http://www.utilitarian.net/singer/by/1972----.htm

Read that, and tell me you can honestly justify 5000$ for a plane. It leads to some uncomfortable conclusions.

[Greg Cole]

It's hockey tickets for a year. Rob Lee

If the Leafs miss the playoffs again this year, you might need to recalculate that one Rob!:rolleyes: Doubting you were referring to Sens tickets...

As to the price of a plane, there's little I can offer that hasn't been said in one way shape or form already.

These posts do make some interesting reading if nothing else.:D

Greg

[Ted Jay]

I've spent over ten thousand on a stereo system before and all I could do with that is sit around and listen to it. I enjoyed it and it sounded good for many years to come.
I might be able to be convinced to spend that kind of money on the plane if I felt confident enough that It really made a differencein my woodworking. I'm not at the point to tell if a $100 plane will make me a better wood worker, I'm still experimenting with them. I can "gouge" out a chunk of wood with a $5 plane just as easily as I can with a $5000 plane.

The costs of ones tools boils down to priorities, simple as that. It's not a matter of need... but a matter of want.:)
Ted Jay

[Matt Bickford]

Do you do this woodwork stuff for a hobby or for work? what about mountain biking? are you earning money while on the trail? shame on you when there are starving children in Africa. Shame...I certainly hope that picture of you on a mountain bike was taken by a professional. I know you don't own a camera.

[Dan Racette]

Hey guys.

I think we are about done talking about Karl Holtey Planes and the cost of them.

We don't need to judge who spends their money on what. I believe it is against the rules around here, whether you agree with those rules or not.

Dan

[Marcus Ward]

Do you do this woodwork stuff for a hobby or for work? what about mountain biking? are you earning money while on the trail? shame on you when there are starving children in Africa. Shame...I certainly hope that picture of you on a mountain bike was taken by a professional. I know you don't own a camera.\

I didn't claim to be a moral person.

[Dave Anderson NH]

This thread is coming perilously close to having personal attacks in it. There will be no more of this folks or I will lock the thread.

[Ted Jay]

So Mr Holtey being a woodworker is also a machinist. the site list he had a hobby of model engineering. Sure would like to see the other stuff he has done, considering the fine detail of all the parts that go into one of his planes.
Ted

[Michael Gibbons]

Come on now gang, BE NICE!!! This is a thread about a $ 5000 plane.

[Chris Padilla]

The slope in this thread is getting mighty slippery and not in the good fun way we all like!

[Eddie Darby]

I can remember a show on economics that gave the example of how hard it was for extremely rich people to spend all the money they have. No it wasn't the movie "Brewster's Millions".:D

The people involved threw a birthday party for their dogs, and invited some other rich folks dogs, and the party was on. Limo service for the dogs, with each dog getting a diamond collar, along with the most delightful fancy spelling food you could imagine.

I am sure that the total cost of the party to the owner of the dog, was less than the cost of a pack of chewing gum to most people if you took it as a percentage of the total income they make.

On it's own it is bizzare to most, but when they divulged how much the owner of the dog gave to charity, some might argue that the cost of the party was cheap.

Throwing money at poverty has never solved the poverty problem, and in some cases it has only helped to make it worse.

There ain't nothin' well about welfare.

However using money to love people with has always solved the problem.
Of course pets need love too.

So when I see that an object is made with love and skill, that goes far beyond mere craft work to being an object of art, then the intrinsic value becomes greater than the sum of the parts.

If you just want to bang around with a plane, then a Holtey is not for you.

Can anyone tell me why for some reason every once in a while I find myself giving the dogs a piece of steak off my plate.:confused:

[Marcus Ward]

Don replied in a very thoughtful manner, and especially one which indicated he was familiar with Singer, which is kind of nice. And yes, if you believe anything singer says and live above a subsistence level it is rather hypocritical. I can't personally go that far, I wish I could but I will just be a hypocrite! :) My intention was to point out that 5000$ would do a lot of good in other places, I guess. I think the reply was deleted but I appreciated it, and appreciated that someone was familiar with the Singer and took the time to reply. No, I'm not mad at anyone nor would I want anyone to feel bad, sometimes I like to prod the bull a little to maybe stimulate some discussion or thought, and sometimes it comes out a bit rough. :)

[Jim Koepke]

Can anyone tell me why for some reason every once in a while I find myself giving the dogs a piece of steak off my plate.:confused:


Love is giving things you love to the ones you love.

jim

[David Tiell]

Can anyone tell me why for some reason every once in a while I find myself giving the dogs a piece of steak off my plate.:confused:
I know the reason I do it is because I can't say no to those big begging eyes. My dogs are my babies!

AS for the Hotley plane, it's all personal choice. If you can afford it, and you want it, then get it. They are unquestionably premium quality tools, and it's hard to go wrong with quality.

[Bruce Haugen]

I probably could afford one, but I'd have to sell my motorcycle to get it.

What!? Not in this lifetime. There are choices to be made here.

Bruce

[Eddie Darby]

I know the reason I do it is because I can't say no to those big begging eyes. My dogs are my babies!

AS for the Hotley plane, it's all personal choice. If you can afford it, and you want it, then get it. They are unquestionably premium quality tools, and it's hard to go wrong with quality.

I guess that a Holtey would make a great gift for someone who loves woodworking. ;)

Of course I could be wrong.:confused::eek:

[Ethan Sincox]

I love woodworking. And, coincidentally, my birthday is coming up in a little over a month...

;)

[David Shively]

I thought I might throw my 2 cents into the mix. I read a very interesting editorial the other day in popular woodworking about the price of new tools. The editor mentioned the flurry of letters he gets every time he mentions a new Lie Nielsen...insert company here...is mentioned. He went on to discuss the fact that pricing in most of the tool world has decreased rather than increased to match inflation-primary examples were tailed tools but that is irrelevant. I work in the power tool industry as a rep for DeWalt tools and hear it every day-why so much money? Why isn't it made in the USA?

Heres the problem-you cant make a quality tool in the USA for a price that most would want to pay for it. We demand high wages and top dollar for materials that we produce. So we buy everything cheaper and cheaper from CHINA! And what do you get cheaper tools-thats why they aren't made like they used to.

Yeah $5,000 dollars is high or maybe $3,000 for a Sauer and Steiner is more money than buying a stanley off ebay. But these guys are putting 40+ hours, skills that far exceed most-without the aid of machines and computers, and high quality materials into it. In my opinion it just demonstrates what an amazing deal Veritas and Lie-Nielsen planes are.

To be honest I get a little annoyed every time I see a post about buying an used tool on Ebay-I am not about wasting but...if we want to see quality hand tools made in the future maybe we ought to rethink the value we put on whats out there. I am not going to buy a Holtey plane tommorow...or probably ever but I don't think it is out of line. I will continue to buy Lie Nielsen, Veritas, Wenzloff....even if they raise prices to match inflation because they are a major value ( I realize no one mentioned these brands but they often get mentioned and are followed by at least several trying to discourage their purchase.)

Feel free to flame my post-its all opinion anyway

[Peter Quadarella]

Who's to say whether the person I give my $5000 to doesn't have a better use for it than me?

I don't really care who that person is. Yes I try to support our country, but it has to support itself too; we can't build walls and expect that we can deliver goods at higher prices than the rest of the world forever and they will continue to be bought. What we have to do is what we have been doing - finding our niche as a provider of HIGHER quality goods. Like the Holtley plane :). Also, it's not all about manufacturing - there are other industries to make a living off of too. I would say we're a hardy enough people that even if we lost ALL manufacturing jobs, we would figure out some other way to provide value, and to provide for our families.

[Gary Herrmann]

Wow, this thread took a nasty turn.

If I could afford one, I'd buy a Holtey plane. But nobody knows what I can afford but me - even if they know how much I earn.

The man makes art that you can make art with, if you have the skill.

[Anthony Scira]

"Heres the problem-you cant make a quality tool in the USA for a price that most would want to pay for it. We demand high wages and top dollar for materials that we produce. So we buy everything cheaper and cheaper from CHINA! And what do you get cheaper tools-thats why they aren't made like they used to. "

I try and buy American as much as possible. From my clothing to tools.

I think the coporate world just likes the larger profits by making things overseas. (American made jeans 39.00 vs Levi 501 at 36.99 and the American jeans are WAY cooler)

But getting back on topic those are cool tools. Anything hand made is VERY cool. Just like a fine musical instrument it has mojo in it. Something only a hand made thing can have.

But I don't know if I will ever be worth of one.