Question for the Stairmasters

[Frank Snyder]

I'm trying to finish up my own back staircase which leads into my basement. I live in an 88 year old house, and while I've been renovating it for the past 5 years, I can't always make more room for better clearances. I pulled out the existing staircase, reframed everything (including the landing), and brought the rise and run of the steps into code.

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The problem I'm faced with is how best to design and anchor the upper part of the railing for the lower section of the staircase. The upper and lower newel posts are in-line with each other, and the treads for the upper and lower stairs overlap into this vertical space. The lower outside corner of the upper staircase converges into the space where the upper part of the lower railing would need to anchor. Had I not overlapped my upper and lower stairs into the same plane occupied by the newel post, this wouldn't be an issue. However, as tight as this corridor is, in both width and height, I wanted to maintain the widest clearance I could. The upper stairs are 34" wide and the lower stairs are 32" wide. The railing was more of an afterthought, thus my conundrum.

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At this point, I'm just trying to come up with viable solutions for this lower railing. I've mocked up a railing at 32" from the nose of the tread, and it breaks its angle to converge horizontally into the main newel post. This causes the railing to lose its height for two steps which would bring it out of code. Anchoring the upper part of the railing into the lower outside corner of the upper stairs wouldn't work too well either since the center line of the railing would be split in half. Snaking the railing around the outside corner and into the side of the main newel causes some problems with the spindles being in plane with the shoe rail and would also narrow an already narrow stair corridor.

I had the foresight to make the railing sections and newel post removable using Keylocks and Minilocks (great products btw), which will make moving furniture into and out of the basement a little easier. The staircase still needs to be painted and the newel posts still need their embellishments.

For the stairmasters here (Richard Wolf and Steve Clardy), what would you suggest? I think this may be a case of the lesser of many evils, and since the original staircase when I bought the house was never up to code, this may not be the issue that I'm making it. I just wanted the stairs to be the same rise, same run, and get as close to code as possible while looking presentable.

Any suggestions or comments are appreciated.

Frank

[Paul Girouard]

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Any suggestions or comments are appreciated.




Why is this newel so far from the first riser?

Humm not sure why that 4th photos not showing , that must be this forums way of attaching a photo , I'm not used to it , the photo I'm trying to link is the bottom of the stair photo.

I think If you move that newel back toward the first riser / tread some of your issues will get better , with that quick a winder, getting a totally code compliant rail on that side will never work out . The inspector will have to work with a best we can get scenario.

I bet it's a big improvement over the old stair , nice lookin job!

[Frank Snyder]

It's not. The camera cut off the first step. It's there...you just can't see it.

Here's a better shot...

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And where the railing ends up...

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And thanks for the compliment. I'll post finished pictures when I'm done with this project.

[Paul Girouard]

So are you projecting thru to the nosing to get your , I think you said 32" , which is to low , at least here by IRC 2006 , I should go get my quick check code book , I generally go for 36" as your code sez 34" to 38" IRRC.

You may have to just shoot right up to that winder newel of the last "straight " tread. Maybe ??

It's darned hard to advise on this stuff as term / ideas / suggestions are hard to articulate exactly.

[Paul Girouard]

It's not. The camera cut off the first step. It's there...you just can't see it.



Dang cameraman :mad: Heheehe :D MTL you eh:o :D

That upper rail itself does not look complaint either BTW , it looks to wide, / not gripable , thats in the code book as well , guess I better walk out to the shop and get it.

[Matt Ocel]

Frank - It is very UN-likely that these stairs will meet any of the building codes I know of. Not I.R.C., B.O.C.A., U.B.C.. So as long as don't need to pass an inspection, I would focus on at least installing a code compliant continous handrail at the proper height (34" to 38") for your families safety. With the pictures shown it is very difficult to give specific advice, but in my opinion coffmanstairs.com would be the best place to start for good answers.
Good Luck - Winders have caused many experienced trimmers sleepless nights

[Frank Snyder]

Paul - The upper handrail is 2-1/2" wide by 1-5/8" thick...within codes here I believe. The spindles are space at 3-1/2".

Matt - I know there's a "grandfather" clause for older homes with situations like this. I agree with you about having a continuous hand railing for safety's sake. I can still install one on the opposite wall, but the open side of the stairs still needs to be closed off somehow.

And "yes", this project has caused me some sleepless nights as well. A LOT of converging surfaces and obstacles to deal with. Trimming it out has been a real challenge, but I think the finished product should speak for itself when I'm done.

I made all of the stairparts. The treads and handrail are Birch. The risers, skirtboards, newels and spindles are Poplar and will be painted. Cutting the winder treads to an exact fit (especially the ones that were "captured" on three sides) took some time. I made templates first which yielded a perfect fit.

[Paul Girouard]

The upper handrail is 2-1/2" wide by 1-5/8" thick...within codes here I believe.

IRC calls for 1 1/2" to 2" max , 1 1/2" off the wall or any pinch points .

Just cuz they sell it doesn't make it compliant , that would be way to simple eh :D

I wouldn't stress on that part , most inspectors won't call you on that unless it's really wide like the guys who use 2x6 on the flat on exterior deck :rolleyes:

The code check booklet doesn't dare address wider hand rails only tread width size in the winder corner , min 6" and 10" width 12" out of the corner.

[Paul Girouard]

It's not. The camera cut off the first step. It's there...you just can't see it.

Here's a better shot...

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And where the railing ends up...

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And thanks for the compliment. I'll post finished pictures when I'm done with this project.

Couldn't you just knotch it so it ran straight up and attached to your upper stair skirt and wall section, then make the break to horzintal / level up there? If it wanted / needed to break over at all.

Could you mock that up ?

[Frank Snyder]

Paul - Thanks for checking. City ordinances here are somewhat customized from NBC, and when dealing with older homes, they seem to provide some latitude with interpretation. Not much, but a little. In fact, I'm not sure our city even allows winder staircases in new homes.

At 6 feet tall, I have to duck my head just a bit when going down these stairs. That alone would violate any building code. There's just not enough room in this corridor for a code compliant staircase. Unfortunately, it's the only way to get into the basement short of blowing a hole into the side of the foundation. My main concern was the consistent riser height and tread depth. They were off over an inch before I reframed them, and the lower treads were just 8" deep (with overhang). Now I'm at a consistent 7-1/2" rise and the treads are just shy of 10". The winders, at their centers, yield 10" of depth as well.

Perhaps I should've just installed an elevator here instead?

[Frank Snyder]

Couldn't you just knotch it so it ran straight up and attached to your upper stair skirt and wall section, then make the break to horzintal / level up there? If it wanted / needed to break over at all.

Could you mock that up ?

Once the railing bisects the upper staircase's skirtboard and gets notched, you've lost any means to grip it. Not sure where this falls on the "lesser of many evils" scale. I had considered this option, but the reason I just mentioned dissuaded me from doing so.

Notching the hand rail there would also prevent me from using the Minilock hardware to attach it, rendering it non-removable, since it would need vertical clearance for removal.

I can still mock up some scrap handrail tomorrow and see if this looks any better.

[Paul Girouard]

I just did a non compliant stair in a older house , not a winder , I got it as close as all the things in the way would allow. I lack head room , but the people can use the stair and access to the space now where before they couldn't use it at all . So I understand , I've done a few basement winders thru the years all with no permit , but vast improvements over the old stairs , lifes a grind , ya gotta flow with it some place or you'll get crushed . So your just flown here man , no worries . Like I said it looks good and for a family "safe" enought and way better.

Cross post on that.

Ya it would prevent that maybe , there might be a way to remove it IF you "break" it with a miter. I'm not fimilar with that hardware your using , maybe theres another way , lets think on that , one issue at a time.

And I think , if you have little guys , a continous rail , or as close to it hung off the other wall would be a great idea , the side we're looking at will be more for looks and the guard rail effect due to the issues of "no grip" at some point / points.

But your tracking right , mostly here.:):cool:

[Matt Ocel]

Frank - after studying the pictures a little more, couldn't you try cutting a gooseneck around and up to the mid newel? Its alot of cutting, but I have seen it done for code rails.
By the way I'm sure it will be beautiful when completed and when you get it figured out you can, help me figure out how to mitre 2 curved church pews together (a homeowner wants me to do it for her basement entertainment room)

[Paul Girouard]

Frank - after studying the pictures a little more, couldn't you try cutting a gooseneck around and up to the mid newel? Its alot of cutting, but I have seen it done for code rails.
By the way I'm sure it will be beautiful when completed and when you get it figured out you can, help me figure out how to mitre 2 curved church pews together (a homeowner wants me to do it for her basement entertainment room)



That goose neck will be $itch to rip down , but that might work , how would he hold it to rip it down , so many questions! Gosh I love this stuff:cool:

Got any photos of those pews? Curved in what way? The seats parts or fitting a curved wall ?

Chain saw :eek::D

[Frank Snyder]

Paul - I'll mock up a split rail tomorrow. It won't be pretty...I broke my only bandsaw blade yesterday (Resaw King cracked and the noise scared the mustard out of me) so I placed an order for a Lennox Trimaster which should be here Monday. I'll have to use my jigsaw for this mock up instead.

[Matt Ocel]

Pew pictures tommorrow. The pews are 9' with a slight radius. Hard to explain, pictures will work better

[Paul Girouard]

Paul - I'll mock up a split rail tomorrow. It won't be pretty...I broke my only bandsaw blade yesterday (Resaw King cracked and the noise scared the mustard out of me) so I placed an order for a Lennox Trimaster which should be here Monday. I'll have to use my jigsaw for this mock up instead.




I was thinking just along side of the newel up to and held at the right height just for a look see.

[Frank Snyder]

Matt - An "s" turn with a goose neck might work. Making the gooseneck would be a time killer. There's a reason why stairbuilders buy prefab railing parts, and this would be one of them.

Please post some pictures of your pew project. Lately, I've been using Dominoes a lot to reinforce all sorts of joints. If I'm guessing correctly, you're referring to the bench and how to cut and connect the sections? Like the winder treads which are several boards edge joined into an approximate shape, then cut at whatever angle using a guided rail saw system (Festool TS55 in my case). I also have a Bosch angle finder which I use to dial in the exact angles. Depending on your size and radius, you could connect several straight mitered sections together, cut the radius with a good jigsaw, clean up the cut with PC's oscillating spindle sander, then bullnose the edge with a radius bit with bearing. Am I off base here?

Paul - The hardware is basically a keyhole plate with a ramped inside surface which "locks" the joint tight. Do a search for "Fastener Unlimited" if you want more info.

[Richard Wolf]

Hi Frank, it sounds like you, Paul and Mat have beaten this to death. We all know this is a very difficult situation, and throw in trying to be code compliant, and it turns into a nightmare.
My vote would go with a S turn and gooseneck. Winders like the one you have are very dangerous and scream out for a handrail on the short side. Putting a handrail on the outside will only supply you with something to bang your head on, after your fall.
If you are making your own handrail, you could eliminate the easings and miter all your direction changes.

Richard

[Frank Snyder]

Hi Richard,

Thanks for posting your advice. I agree that an "s" turn and gooseneck will provide the best continuous railing for the open side of the stairs. The only problem I see with that solution in my case is how to deal with the remaining spindles after the "s" turn which are in plane with the lower shoe rail. The tops of those spindles would then converge and be split on the outside corner of the upper staircase's skirtboard. Aesthetically, this would look pretty silly IMO. But I suppose aesthetics should play second to safety.

I'll chew on this today and see what I can come up with. I appreciate your advice nonetheless.

[Steve Clardy]

Gee Frank, what did you get yourself into? :D

Decisions decisions, huh. :confused:


How much can you narrow up the upper handrail you have mocked up there?
And possibly shave off the inside of the upper rail where the upper staircase wall comes down and interferes.
Possible to narrower it up, and then move the mocked up rail and shoe over off-center of the newels, [closer to the treads]

Then shoot that top rail straight into the mid newel?

Just doing some thinking here.;)

[Richard Wolf]

Frank, I think if you half lap the top balusters and maybe chamfer the tops of them, they wouldn't look so bad. I realize this is not going to help with the easy removal idea.

Richard

[Richard Wolf]

Ok, so I gave this some more brain cells and this is what I really think you should do. Abandon the continuous rail idea and trying to be code compliant. The big concern is most likely to make this removable. Continue the rail up to the bottom of the top stringer, miter another piece of rail to it to follow the stringer back down to the newel post and fit your balusters in. This will make it easy to remove. Let's face it, you are not going to grab on to the gooseneck anyway, you will grab the newel. Be careful, teach the kids to walk the stair carefully. I think that is what I would do. Best of luck.

Richard

[Frank Snyder]

Steve - Believe me...I put this staircase project off for as long as I could knowing I'd run into problems like this.

Thanks for your suggestion of narrowing the handrail and moving it off center. While that might work, I'm not so sure it would look cohesive with the rest of the staircase. Also, the balusters are 1-1/4" wide, so that limits me as well.

Richard - Now that's an idea I hadn't considered. Make an "A" with the railing. Very unique. I gain another 6" of handrail by doing this as opposed to the horizontal version I mocked up. I'll need to mock this up and see which one gets the manager's approval (wife). We don't have any kids (just two Basset Hounds...and they don't have opposable thumbs) so we shouldn't have to worry about this too much.

I think we've exhausted all of my options ad nausea um, so I'll make a decision with the wife and start cutting again. I'm hoping to wrap up this railing and paint the staircase over the next few days, then I'll update this thread with finished photos.

Thanks again, everyone, for your thoughts and suggestions. They helped tremendously.

Frank

[Paul Girouard]

Bump , well ??? Did the pew picture /thread slip past me?? Come on fellas what ya do ?? Nuttin :eek:Tap , tap ,tap!!!

[Frank Snyder]

I'm painting them today. Pictures will soon follow...stay tuned.

[Frank Snyder]

Here's the finished product. Masking everything off and painting seems to take forever. The railing and newel post are removable. Just a strategically placed tap with a rubber mallet releases the newel, and a couple of upward taps on the railing disengages it from the newel and the rosettes. It takes less than 30 seconds. Putting it back takes a little more patience trying to align the 4 screw heads with their respective keyholes, but its not too difficult.

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My wife and I decided to go with the non-code compliant railing design for the lower half of the staircase. Richard's idea was a great one and really was the best solution, but aesthetically, it was just too hard to explain. Fortunately, it's just me and the wife (no kids) who'll be using this staircase, so it'll work for us.

(cont'd...)

[Frank Snyder]

There were a LOT of trimwork challenges with this project. The walls were in different planes due to the foundation and other converging surfaces. I tried to make everything look intentional and not reactive to their constraints (with the exception of the lower railing...that definitely was reactive design).

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[Richard Wolf]

Nice work Frank, enjoy it.

Richard