Ease of planer use on J/P combos

[Andy Pratt]

Like a number of other users, I'm in the market for a jointer/planer and had a couple concerns. My concerns relate only to the planer function on these machines. I was hoping some of you guys who have used them a lot could let me know how big a deal these things really are in use.

1) With the lower planer height off the floor, as opposed to a normal floor model, do you find that it's taxing on your back to run a lot of wood through these. I have visions of stooping over and trying to run a lot of heavy wood through, wishing I hadn't bought it.

2) Stock support: I would like to get a JET or Grizzly 12", based on price, as far as I know neither of these offer additional in/outfeed tables for the planer. How big a deal is this? In combination with question 1, if I'm stooping over, AND have to manually support the wood it could be quite a backbreaker. Having the planer table (as opposed to cutterhead) being the moving piece would seem to make any shopbuilt attempt at tables unfeasible.

Thanks,
Andy

[Dave Novak]

So far with my J/P combo, I've built one TV cabinet, two bar tables, and I'm part way through a baby changing station. because of the shortness of the tables, I pre-cut my stock to just a bit longer than finish-necessary. As such, the longest board I had to run was just a bit over 4'. You are dead on about the planer height being a little low. If you were running an entire set of kitchen cabinet stock all at once, you might get a sore back. Also, if you were running a bunch of very long boards, outfeed support might be handy, and would be custom based on the finished thickness. At the lengths I've run, the planer grabs it very securely on the infeed side and I just walked around to the outfeed side to catch it. I'm not sure it would grab it that securely for a 12' long heavy board, but I'm pretty conficent it would be fine at roughly 8'. All that said, if you plan your work appropriately, and aren't using it in a production shop environment, It's my opinion that they're wonderful, space efficient machines.

[Jim Becker]

The table height on my J/P isn't all that different than any stationary single function planer I've seen and I have no comfort issues with it. In fact, it's just about the right height for my arms to easily support the ends of a board on either side while working with the tool.

[Cary Swoveland]

Andy,

I had a Minimax 300C Smart that included a J/P combo. I sold it and replaced it with separates, including a Grizzly 8" jointer and 15" planer, both with spiral cutterheads with carbide inserts.

I much prefer separates, in part because of the way I work. Were I better organized, I wouldn't have to switch between functions so often. However, I enjoy being a little disorganized. I use the jointer much more than the planer, so my combo was invariably set to the jointer function whenever I wanted to plane anything. (Groan.) Incidentally, you can speed the changeover by attaching an electric drill to the planer's up-down crank shaft.

I didn't notice the bad ergonomics of the combo's planer, but I do prefer the ergos of the stand-alone jointer, which is much lower than the combo's jointer function.

It is sometimes convenient to be able to leave the planer at a particular height to mill narrow stock to the same width. (If, for example, I ruin a piece and have to go back a mill a replacement.) If I cut a piece slightly thick on the table saw, I can finish it with one pass through the planer. If you have a combo you of course lose the planer setting whenever you switch functions. I guess that is another reason to install a digital height gauge on your planer, to allow you to return to the same height on the planer.

I don't miss the larger capacity of my combo's jointer. On the rare occassion that I need to face joint a board wider than 8" I can it put through my planer or drum sander on a sled (and my Grizzly planer's capacity is 3" more than with my Minimax).

I really like the extra bed length you get on a stand-alone jointer. That makes it much easier to get straight faces on long stock.

I don't think you save money getting a J/P combo, so as I see it, the only advantages are the wider jointer capacity (which I addressed above) and the smaller footprint. Considering that separates can be placed right next to one another without operational conflict, I I'm not sure how much space is actually saved.

Cary

[Andy Pratt]

Thanks for the replies. Jim, did you mean the jointer table was a good height or the planer table? Is the difference minimal since planing 1" stock is only a little lower than the level of the jointer table or am I confused?

Andy

[Jim Becker]

Andy, both the jointer and planer functions are at a comfortable height for me. The jointer surface of my FS350 (Mini Max) is at about 36" off the floor. The planer table is, oh...lets say maybe about 8"or so (I'm guessing) below that at a typical height while working 5/4 or 4/4 stock. Not much different from a stand-alone planer for the most part, especially one where the table moves rather than the motor/cutter head.

[Chris Parks]

If you are a person who can plan and organise work they can be suitable. If you are the type who forgets to do one operation and have chnged the machine it would be a pain. In my case I would be continually forgetting so I have both.

[Jim Becker]

Chris, you make a good point. One of the reasons that the J/P worked so well for me early on was that I tend to thickness lumber in batches...face jointing first and then thicknessing enough for the project. When I had my cabinet saw, I also used it for edge jointing prior to glue-up. That later function is rare now with the straight-line ripping I can do with my sliding table saw and I still tend to process lumber in batches. And in the odd moment that I do need to switch functions, it's about a minute and a half tops...a little break in the action which frankly, is good from a safety and quality standpoint.

But someone who wants instant access to any one machine function will likely be more comfortable with separate machines. Around that thought, perhaps a nice combo would be a good way to help rethink shop processes and help with learning to think ahead? ;)

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

1) With the lower planer height off the floor, as opposed to a normal floor model, do you find that it's taxing on your back to run a lot of wood through these. I have visions of stooping over and trying to run a lot of heavy wood through, wishing I hadn't bought it.

Ya know I never thought of this as an issue. Now I'm going to be thinking about it. Maybe this is just a way of observing that it's not an issue.


2) Stock support: I would like to get a JET or Grizzly 12", based on price, as far as I know neither of these offer additional in/outfeed tables for the planer. How big a deal is this?I have the Hammer. I have run 8' stock through my JP with no issues and no extra supports.

The Jet and Grizz may not do their machining or engineering specifications to the same tolerances and may not use the same grade of bearings and bearing surfaces may be less too and therein lies the rub.


In combination with question 1, if I'm stooping over, AND have to manually support the wood it could be quite a backbreaker.I just shove it in and pick it up on the outfeed.

The only thing I've had issue with is the blades. They are HSS yah, and pretty good but, I think I'd prefer the true spiral carbide insert cutter head. Quiter, smother, handle figured wood better, last longer that sort of thing.


Having the planer table (as opposed to cutterhead) being the moving piece would seem to make any shopbuilt attempt at tables unfeasible. Prolly be a PITA. You'd need height adjustment and probably have to spring load the tables to get around the precision issues. I haven't needed an extra table. The planar table on the stock Hammer has been plenty good for the big stuff I've put through it.

You seem really concerned with heavy big stuff.

If you are building large things all the time (like big Yachts and big architectural members) then you probably don't want a JP combo for that. You want some monstrous machine with a 20 - 60 horse three phase engine that takes up a 40 foot run of shop space.

What sort of work do you do? If this: http://tinyurl.com/2auwx5 is typical of your work then, a good JP combo won't be a problem for you I don't think.

[Brad Shipton]

I have finished milling about 600bdft of flooring stock recently with my Hammer just recently. My max length pieces are between 9 - 12ft x 5" - 8". I have a pair of the 16" extensions and one of the 30" extensions. The extensions are handy with the planer mostly so the stock doesnt fall off the machine quite as quickly, otherwise, the rollers are secure enough that I have not experienced thickness issues due to bowing of the longer stock. To joint the 12ft long stock in the future I would like two 31" extensions.

I agree with Cliff on the stooping issue. Never noticed this, and had not given this any thought until now. Maybe if I were taller this would be more of an issue.

Brad

[Narayan Nayar]

Jim, something on the Minimax site confused me. In one of the demos of their larger J/P combo machines, they demonstrated the switch from jointer to planer as one in which the fence just came forward on the table then the jointer tables went up. But in a FWW article or video, I think, the fence had to be removed completely from the FS350 Smart.

I'm not sure how old those videos are. On your FS350, do you have to take the fence off?

[Jim Becker]

Narayan, on my FS350, you pull the fence fully to the front of the table and lock it. (I also rotate the bridge guard toward the end of the outfeed table--much easier than the "porkchop" guard which tends to break easy at that point ;)) Then the outfeed side is unlocked and goes up. Then you unlock the infeed side and move it up. Some of the other models rotate everything at once.

[Steven Wilson]

I have a Minimax CU350 combo machine (so 14" j/p ) and I like the generally lower height of the planer, the stock comes out a decent height, much better than setting a lunchbox planer on a worktable and then running stock through. As for the jointer I would like it a bit lower but having 14" to work with is so enjoyable that it's a non-issue for me. As for the fence. I can lock the fence down and rotate the jointer tables out of the way with the fence on but I usually don't; the fence is very, very big and I just don't fancy it falling if I don't lock it down tight enough.

[Jim Becker]

Steven, I'm 5' 11" and actually find the 36" nominal height of the jointer tables to be quite comfortable as there is very little back bending required while working a board. (Same goes for my slider) But everyone has the ideal "comfort height" for their tools.

[Narayan Nayar]

That's great, Jim. Exactly what I hoped was the case.

Your enthusiasm for the FS350 and my ever-decreasing shop space puts me in the market for one of these machines. Heavily leaning towards the minimax but need to find one and, with the budget i've set aside for this machine, it would have to be used.

[Jim Becker]

I hear you, Narayan. If you are looking for used, keep an open mind on the brand name, however....Mini Max, Felder, Hammer (which is also from Felder), etc. Not very many of these machines show up on the used market to my observation, although there was just a Mini Max FS-30 here in the SMC Classifieds (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=74999). Looks to still be available as I write this.

[John Payne]

I have used J/P combos for almost 20 years. I started with a MiniMax FS 35 which was good machine but suffered from a couple of bad design details. I eventually sold it and went to separates but found they just did not work as well in my small shop as the J/P combos. About 10 years ago I bought a Knapp Profi 410 and have been very happy with it.

The one woodworking tool that really needs to be accurate is a jointer. This where the old Fs 35 was less effective as adjusting the tables was very difficult. The Knapp is exceptional in this regard and every bit as accurate as the Oliver I had when I was working with separates.

As for the low height of the planner table I have never found this to be a problem and I am over 6 1/2 feet tall. The most work I have ever done on the machine (this was on the FS 35) was run close to 1200 bd ft for a fence. Spent most of the day running the machine and did not feel the low height of the table was a bother at all.

I have never found the change over to be a problem. On the Mini Max I had a dial indicator mounted so I could zero the planner table to my previously set location. The Knapp has indicator handwheel which is very effective for getting you back to a previous location. I keep a note pad handy to write down the last location each time.

Very biased towards the J/P combos and even with a larger shop space I would most likely stay with one.

[Jim Becker]

John, welcome to SMC! And thanks for your great comments...very useful to this discussion. Do note that the current crop of machines from all the vendors (including Mini Max) have come a long way from that old FS35 you started with.

[Mark Singer]

I have the MiniMax Techno Max which I think is the larjest J/P /M they make and it is a great machine. Easy to switch modes and comfortable to use in any mode. I had sepertates before and now I am sold on this combo!

[Louis Rucci]

I'm still looking at theirs, as I have a MM16. But $10,495 is a little too much for me.

Maybe the Mini Max FS30 Smart 12" or Mini Max FS35 Smart 14" .

We shall see