Need Advice on M&T Joint. (Pics)

[John Finley]

I need some advice on my bed project. This is my first shot at mortise and tenon joints. They are not coming together perfectly. The joint is on boards that are 60-80" long, 10" wide, and 1.5" thick. The picture below shows the gap in the joint. My question is should I use a filler on this joint, leave them as is, or continue to work on them with a sanding block. Being that these are my first M&T joints, I don't know how tight of a joint is practical. I would love to hear some advice from some experience WW's. Thanks, John

[Joe Chritz]

If it won't be visible it is fine. The strength is really from the tenon anyway.

It look like your stock isn't squared at the end or the leg is rotated.

Joe

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

Joe's right. Stock preparation is everything. Check the squareness of your posts, then check the squareness of ends of your aprons. You didn't say how you cut the ends of aprons or how you cut the tenons. On a table saw or radial arm? Check to make sure the blade is set to dead 90 degrees.
Don't make the newbie mistake of pointing every single defect in your finished work. The gap doesn't look that bad, only you will notice. A very wise furnituremaker I apprenticed under once told me with a smile, "We strive for perfection, we don't always get it." Word.

[Doug Shepard]

Take one or two shavings from a sharp hand plane, stick some glue on it and slide it into that gap. Then trim off the excess with a sharp chisel after it's dried. It will be much less visible than using filler. If you can manage to get an end-grain shaving instead of long grain it will probably be totally invisible.

[Sam Yerardi]

On top of what everyone else has said, that IS a pretty good looking joint being your first one! Congratulations!

[John Finley]

Sam, I like the idea of filling the gap with a sliver of wood.

I started to make the tenons on the tablesaw, but the size of the boards made it too hard to keep them square to the blade. I ended up making a jig, and routing out the tenons.

Also, the board in the picture ended up twisting on me after glue up and planing. I had to make the tenon on one end on a different plane than the face of the board (this kept the tenons on both ends of the board on the same plane). I will end up removing material from the face of the board to make it appear the same as the other side of the board.

Jim, Thanks for the advice of not pointing out the little flaws. I need to keep reminding myself that.:)

[Bert Johansen]

I will add one more thing to think about. Because of the heavy frame and stresses on the frame, bed joinery is tricky. One way some folks deal with the additional stresses of M&T joints is to pin the joint with one or two dowels. Another choice, and the one I prefer, is to use bed bolts instead of M&T joints. You might check out the latter--there are many sources for information about bed bolts. Rockler and others sell these. See below.

[Chris Padilla]

Shoulder plane...if you have one...expressly made for this purpose. Use it to square up the shoulder of the tenon. Also excellent for shaving the cheeks of the tenon to get a nice fit.

[John Finley]

Bert, I was planning to use bed bolts for the side rails (along with Tenons) so that I can disassemble the bed. I was not planning to use them for the footboard or headboard. I was just going to glue the M&T. Are you recommending that I use bolts AND glue on the footboard? I have never built a bed before, so I appreciate the advice.

[John Finley]

I don't have one, but it might be worthwhile for me to get. If I were to get one, whcih one would you recommend. I don't have a ton of money, but I also don't like cheap tools (great combination huh). In other words, how much will I need to spend to get quality, but not necessarily top of the line.

[Chris Padilla]

I don't have one, but it might be worthwhile for me to get. If I were to get one, whcih one would you recommend. I don't have a ton of money, but I also don't like cheap tools (great combination huh). In other words, how much will I need to spend to get quality, but not necessarily top of the line.

John,

I'm far from an expert on handplanes but I think the Lee Valley/Veritas (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=48945&cat=1,41182) line of planes are quite excellent for the money. I think Lie Nielsen is a bit too spendy but Lee Valley fits my bill every time.

Check out the Large and Medium shoulder planes there. I also have the bullnose plane...handy little sucker. :)

[pat warner]

The shoulders of band or table sawn tenons are frequently amiss.
Fixturing, saw setup and material prep all play a part. You have to master all 3 to ace out the tenon.
Tho not trivial, router cut tenons (http://patwarner.com/images/index_tenon.jpg)can have near perfect shoulders all around. Moreover, the length of the stock does not interfere with cuttings (whilst router cut). A bed or heavy door rail, e.g., requires serious fixturing to be tenoned with a saw.
Strength of a connection is measured in many ways. Pull strength, probably most important in your case, depends on the quality & parallelism of all the contact surfaces, and the geometry (section & length) of both sexes of the connection . If they're crummy expect compromise.

Probably over riding all of this (life of the joint), is the design of the tenon.
For max (connection) life of a 10" wide stick, the tenon should be divided into 3 sections to share the seasonal width in a more joyous fashion.

[Peter Quinn]

On the shoulder plane issue I have a stanley #93 shoulder plane. The Lie Neilson is better made all around, the Veritas has better features and comfort, and the Clifton planes, well, they are real nice too! But the stanley gets the job done well at about the lowest price around.

You might try paring the shoulders of the tenon a bit with a chisel if you can identify the offending high spots with pencil led and gentle pressure. If you create a subtle hollow close to the tenon cheeks it may close up more tightly without much sacrifice in mechanical strength. Perhaps guide your chisel with a piece of square stock clamped parallel with the shoulder to avoid marring the show faces?

[Butch Edwards]

On top of what everyone else has said, that IS a pretty good looking joint being your first one! Congratulations!

Amen...yours is better'n mine...good job!!!

[Butch Edwards]

Tho not trivial, router cut tenons (http://patwarner.com/images/index_tenon.jpg)can have near perfect shoulders all around. .

Mr Warner....after comparing my tenons with those of yours...I'm having a garage sale...I think you know why....:(
...my lands,those are perfect

[Jared Cuneo]

It's been stated, but I would reiterate....no matter how you choose to proceed you should stop to take some measurements. I would see if you have 4 square stock first of all. Then, I would examine the method for cutting the M&T (find out if the mortise is 90 degree to the face and the tenon is 90 to the length). If those check out then look and see if your final assembly is racked....sounds dumb, but I have made dumber ones and fixed problems that did not exist!

Let us know what happens!

JC

[Bert Johansen]

Sorry for the earlier post. I assumed the rails were the long rails. Bed bolts wouldn't be recommended for the foot-board and headboard.

[Mike Henderson]

I don't have one, but it might be worthwhile for me to get. If I were to get one, whcih one would you recommend. I don't have a ton of money, but I also don't like cheap tools (great combination huh). In other words, how much will I need to spend to get quality, but not necessarily top of the line.
Although it's a bit expensive, the Lee Valley medium shoulder plane is excellent. If you choose to buy it, it's a tool that will give you good service for you lifetime (and then some).

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

I cut my tenons on the table saw with a sled. The only problem is tearout and that can be controlled with a piece of MDF backer board.

For a first effort, yours look good.

Mike