How big is too big for a table saw?

[Dwain Lambrigger]

All,

I am looking for advice. I have an opportunity to by an 8 year old powermatic 12" table saw. 5hp, 3phase. 52" Bies fence. Buyer claims "good" shape. I am going to look tomorrow. Here is my question.

I need to convert to single, and I am a hobbiest. The price is good, $700.00, but firm. I guess I would have to invest a couple of hundred to get this running on single phase, but is this just too much saw?

I know powermatic is usually a good purchase, but would I be getting myself in to deep? I don't usually see 12" blades out there, and am wondering what the additional cost would be.

Again, the price is good, but should their be fears with this size of saw?

What are your thoughts?

Thanks,

[Lance Norris]

Dwain...12-14" table saws are common industrial sizes. Blades are easy to find. I wouldnt see any problem using a saw like this in a hobby-semi pro shop. As long as you have room for a saw this size, itll do a great job.

[Karl Brogger]

Just my experience with the 74. The blade is way forward on the table. It can be a bit of a reach, which can be somewhat dangerous. A shop I worked at had a 12" Powermatic that used to only have a stock feeder on it. For what ever reason it was put into general use. A couple of guys got hurt, (one of which was a moron and it was his destiny to loose a digit or two), and they sold it for a $1000. I wish I would have bought that saw. But I don't have 3 phase, and at the time I didn't have a shop of my own anyway. But for $700 I would leap all over that saw now. I would use it for ripping only, with a feeder. My $.02

If you don't want it, where is the saw located?

[David DeCristoforo]

I am of the "no such thing as too much saw" school. I would think that for the seven hundred plus what you would have to spend on either a phase converter or a single phase 5hp motor you still would be at around 1/2 the cost of a "pro quality" 10" saw. All other things being equal, I would go for it.

YM

PS 12" blades are a bit more costly but no harder to find than 10s. Plus, you can run a 10 on the 12" saw. You just have the capability to run a bigger blade if you need it.

[Karl Brogger]

PS 12" blades are a bit more costly but no harder to find than 10s. Plus, you can tun a 10 on the 12" saw. You just have the capability to run a bigger blade if you need it.

I'm not sure about that. I think the 7.5hp Powermatics use a 7/8 arbor. Not positive on that though.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

More runout and noise from a 12" blade. Will a ten inch blade cut the same depth?

[David DeCristoforo]

"I think the 7.5hp Powermatics use a 7/8 arbor..."

That might be true... I don't really know for sure either. In fact, I don't really know squat about PMs having never owned one. But I'd still go for the deal!

YM

PS..Ask about the arbor size. My PM lovin friend tells me that some 12 PMs had 5/8 arbors and some had up to 1". If this saw has a 5/8 then you can mount a "typical" 10" blade. If not, the blade would have to have the arbor hole reamed at which point it would be more sensible to just get a 12" blade.

[Vijay Kumar]

I dont think 12 inches is too big a saw. It will cost you a about $ 200 to $ 400 to either buy a phase converter or a new single phase motor.

12 inch blades are easy to find (make sure this saw takes a 1 inch arbor otherwise you will need custom boring).

Also on my 12 inch Wadkin the miter slots are 3/4 inch wide x 1/2 inch deep, and much further from the blade than traditional 10 inch saws. So normal accessories such as commercially available tenoning jigs, miter accessories (such as Incra miter gage) will not fit without customizing. You can certainly work around these limitations but just be aware of them. The Powermatic may have the std slots and std distances.

Vijay


All,

I am looking for advice. I have an opportunity to by an 8 year old powermatic 12" table saw. 5hp, 3phase. 52" Bies fence. Buyer claims "good" shape. I am going to look tomorrow. Here is my question.

I need to convert to single, and I am a hobbiest. The price is good, $700.00, but firm. I guess I would have to invest a couple of hundred to get this running on single phase, but is this just too much saw?

I know powermatic is usually a good purchase, but would I be getting myself in to deep? I don't usually see 12" blades out there, and am wondering what the additional cost would be.

Again, the price is good, but should their be fears with this size of saw?

What are your thoughts?

Thanks,

[Peter Quinn]

Used a 12" SCMI at my last job, there were a few times when you just needed that extra 2" diameter for deep cuts or particular setups, and the extra powere never hurts. This saw had a 1" arbor, so does my RAS. Good blade suppliers all carry blades with different arbor holes, they are a little more but its really the tooth count you pay for, normally bigger blade, more teeth. We had lots of 10" blades with the 1" arbor, even one thin kerf for putting weather stripping slots in door jambs. You won't normally find 1" arbors on the shelf at most hardware stores but they are a stock item for blade sellers.

If that big ole PM runs, I'd take it for $700 asuming its not pummelled.

[Dwain Lambrigger]

Frankly,

I am a bit concerned about converters, and the cost. Would it be simpler to get a 5hp single phase motor and so a swap? Can I buy these from Baldor or Leeson? What do I ask for?

So again, converter or engine swap. Seems like an engine swap would handle all of my issues, but at what cost?

Thanks for all of your replies. I am going to look at the saw tomorrow.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Would it be simpler to get a 5hp single phase motor and so a swap?"

It really depends on the motor and how it's bracketed. Again, I am not familiar enough with PM. But I know that Unisaw motors are way more expensive than "non bracketed" motors of the same size.

YM

[Jim Andrew]

I worked a few months on a 14" powermatic table saw. Sure didn't have to worry about bogging it down. The fence was just like a Biesmeier. I like my unisaw very much, but that saw made mine seem like a hobby saw. Jim

[Carl Fox]

A TS is too big if it won't fit in you shop.;)

[David DeCristoforo]

"A TS is too big if it won't fit in you shop..."

No... That just means your shop is too small...

YM

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Keep in mind, if you swap to single phase, and if the saw has a magnetic starter, you may need to fiddle with the relays a bit. Very do-able, just something to remember.

[Jason King]

As the owner of a dual arbor 16 inch saw in a two car garage shop, I can definitely state that a 12" isn't too big. As long as it fits in the space you have available, there is no reason not to get a bigger saw. Generally speaking, saws that accept larger diameter blades have heavier castings, and generally run smoother than smaller saws.

As far as phase conversion or new motor, You have four standard options.

1. Get the power company to send 3 phase power to your shop. This may or may not be a possibility and can range in price from (almost) free, to ridiculously expensive. It's probably worth a telephone call to find out though.

2. Buy a VFD. Single phase 240 to 3phase 240 5 hp VFD's are easily available, but probably more expensive than you would want (I'd guess about $800.)

3. Buy or make and RPC. I would personally suggest making one, but your comfort level may vary. You'll need at least a 5hp 3 phase motor, and enclosure, and a variety of capacitors, etc. This is probably you're cheapest option, and it has the added benefit of opening the door for other three phase machines.

4. Buy a 5hp single phase motor. Depending on the source, this price can range from 300 to over a 1,000. You'll need to find out what mounting base your current motor has. In addition, 3 phase motors are generally smaller than single phase motors of the same HP, so you may have difficulty getting a single phase motor to fit. However, I have no experience with your current saw, so that may or may not be an issue.

Please let us know which route you choose, and how everything ends up.

[Carl Fox]

"A TS is too big if it won't fit in you shop..."

No... That just means your shop is too small...

YM

Good point. My bride and I are working on our 'wish list' for our next house. We agree that a 3 car garage is needed (1 bay for her car, one for mine, and one for my motorcycles)

And space to build a 30x20' workshop.:rolleyes:

[Jeff Duncan]

although the bigger saws do have their advantages a couple things I'd point out are....
1) Yes 12" blades are available, but not as easily or cheaply as 10" blades.
You probably won't find much selection locally, and will likely have to rely on mail order, not a bad thing but something to be aware of. Also the 12" blades are a bit more expensive so you'll have to keep that in mind. Specialty blades will be even more costly, you probably won't be buying a real high quality dado setup for instance b/c of the cost getting one for that arbor size.
Again just something to keep in mind.
2) I'm not familiar with the saw your looking at but it may well have an odd sized miter slot, which again will prevent you from using readily available aftermarket accesories. Again, not the end of the world, just something to be aware of.
3) Although $700 isn't a bad price, in this market these types of saws don't really have any demand, at least in my area. The last auction I attended a 12" Powermatic got 2 bids and went out the door for $475, in good condition with the miter guage, and Beisemeyer fence.
I like the bigger iron myself and usually try to go for it when I can. But I do think it's good to be aware that it's not all roses buying bigger machinery. You should do your homework and make an educated decision based on your usage and needs, more than price and desire,
good luck,
JeffD

[Dwain Lambrigger]

Interesting stuff.

First, it was a PM 66, running a 10" blade. I don't know if it will fit a 12" blade. Bies fence, old as the saw, and in somewhat tough shape. It is definately a three phase and definately 5 horsepower. The think started like a demon, and was smooth running. Still, there was some surface rust on the cabinet (not a big deal) and the DC outlet was damaged (from the forklift, the guy said. He also said he would throw in a phase converter with the deal. He showed it to me, and I wouldn't recognize it from a box of cigars. He said the Phase Converter was sitting for a year or so.

Anyway, the saw was the gold powermatic color, but with a green stripe instead of black. The serial number is 8466589. There was another companies name next to Powermatic, Hill...something. Any ideas?

I am not sure if I should pick this up or pass. Guy said $700. firm.

What do you think?

[Ed Blough]

First it is a good deal but not a heck of a good deal.
What you need to decide is actual cost.
First you know you have to pay $700. You must decide if you can afford that, keeping in mind the economy.
Next you have to think about getting it running if the phase converter works you will either have to wire it in or have that done. Again cost.
If the phase converter doesn't work you will either have to get it fixed or buy another one. More cost.
Lastly the fence in your words is rough, too rough to be be happy with or do you have to replace it? More costs.

Then you have to ask can you muscle around a production machine and do you have space for it? If you do then ask yourself it that is what you want to do.

Then ask yourself if you buy this will you be happy or will you regret spending your money on this saw when something smaller, lighter, cheaper, newer, bigger, more costly may have made you more happy.

[Doug Mason]

What's the kick-back like on this baby--dangerous for the inexperienced?

[Ted Jay]

So if you decide to go ahead and go for it, and it's not for you, you may have no problem passing it on to someone alse at the same price.

Get him to plug that phase converter in to make sure it'll work, then buy it.:cool:

[Josiah Bartlett]

I would have bought it on the spot, but I'm adventurous that way. In some ways, a high horsepower saw is safer for kickback than a lower horsepower one, since if the blade gets pinched it won't slow down. Blades tend to grab harder in the kerf once they slow down.

[Jason King]

If you plan on buying, please make sure the phase converter is a rotary phase converter, and not a static phase converter.

Static phase converters will only get you about 70% of the rated HP of the motor, and static converters can void some warranties.

The simplest way to find out what it is is to see if the phase converter tells you what kind it is (rotary or static)

The second simplest way is to see if the converter has what looks like an electric motor inside it. An RPC is basically an electric motor that generates 3 phase. If you don't see a big electric motor, it's probably a static.

Good luck

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Converting to Single will cost more than getting a "Phase Perfect" (brand) phase converter.

I have a 12" saw and I like the blade size it more than my 10 incher

[Rob Will]

I use a 7.5 hp PM 74A in my home shop. I like the larger tables that come with 12 / 14" saws.

Yes the blade is set back fairly far on a 74A because of the separate scoring blade. (I dont use my scoring blade and, had just as soon have a model 72). Actually, the blade setback has one advantage - it gives you a lot of room, stability and support for the work prior to entering the blade. I can cut a 2' wide panel with a sliding miter gauge such as the Osborne EB-3. The big miter gauge is really at home on the big saw.

As far as blades go, I have a 14" Forrest 40T WW2 and a 14" Freud 24T heavy ripping blade. For everyday general-purpose use around the shop I have a 12" Freud Avanti thin kerf blade from the BORG. The nice thing about thing about these thin blades is that they throw less material at you and have an anti-kickback tooth design.

A 12 -14" saw is no big deal, especially if you use a ZCI and run a 12" blade most of the time.

The arbor is 1" and the miter slots are standard 3/8" x 3/4".

Rob

[Rob Will]

If this is a clean, year 2000 or so model 72 or 74 with a large (42" fence, 50" rails) Beisemeyer, this is a $2000 saw any day of the week.

The first two digits of the serial # are the year of mfg. This should be a USA made saw (before JET bought PM). It sould be non-metalic yellow/gold in color. If a metallic gold color, it is probably 1990's

I would simply get the frame size off of the motor and price a single phase replacement.

FWIW: one of the first things I did with my 14" saw was to edge rip some 18' long 2x8's (for a roof addition) each with approx a 20 degree bevel. This resulted in a cut face width of over 5" (in one pass) - try that on a 10" saw:p.

Here's a pic of the vibration problem I am having with the big Powermatic
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=724561#post724561

I would buy that saw.

Rob

[Fred Woodward]

It's a 1984 model saw. $700 isn't bottom feeder price but maybe not totally out of line depending on condition I would think. You did not mention table extensions, arbor wrench, miter gage, dust door or motor cover. If all of these were included it would be a much better deal. Lots of old PM66's don't have the motor cover with them (I don't think that was a standard item but was an option....one that you will want with dust collection).
The PM66 is a great saw, no doubt. Parts are still available for that vintage of PM66. The 3 phase isn't a huge problem but certainly can be a deal breaker for some of us. The Bies fence can be rebuilt or repaired pretty easily. The saw inside is pretty simple to take apart and refurbish if that would be your plan. I would at least replace arbor and motor bearings; pretty easy to do or not terribly expensive to have done. If the motor and arbor or blade spin easily by hand, it definitely needs new bearings. Most 20+ year old saws would need new bearings even if they were never used much.
I purchased a 1983 PM66 about 5 months ago ($750). It looked pretty sad when I got it (compared to a new saw). Lots of surface rust on the table and extensions(main table and 3 CI extensions, about 6' of cast iron top), paint dinged in many places, some light rust on the cabinet in places. Original Bies fence was damaged and very used, but repairable. Guide tube on the front rail had been ripped off of the rail and was crushed and bent (not repairable by me).
I completely stripped the saw down. Found a broken casting that I replaced with new ($73). Replaced arbor and motor bearings (~$50 or less). Purchased a new Bies fence and Powermatic rail set online for about $300. New motor cover ($79) Dust Door ($~20) Paint and primer (~$50) Many joyous hours going through everything, stripped all parts down, primed and repainted, reassembled and adjusted.
Making that first cut with the newly refurbed saw...PRICELESS!! :D

Did I pay too much for that particular saw? Possibly. Do I regret it? NO
Would I do it again? Absolutely!!
A new PM66 sells for about $2800. Used ones don't come up for sale that often where I live (I looked for a PM66 to rebuild for about 2 years and was just not quick enough on 4 saws locally. The cheapest I saw listed was ~ $900. The listings usually sell in less than 1/2 day.) Though I've seen many PM66's on EB go for ~$500-600 there is still shipping to deal with and you never know really what you are getting till it arrives. I've been sniped on many of those too. LOL

Get the saw. If you find it isn't for you, I would think you can probably get your money back on a resale. Once you use it though, I'm betting you won't get rid of it.
There is a definite reason the PM66 has been so popular for almost 50 years.
If you need a 12 or 14" saw for the work you plan to do, that's a whole different story.

[John Browne]

I bought a used 66 (1999 vintage) and it's a sweet sweet saw. You won't regret it. It's "only" 3HP but it cuts like a demon. I've never heard the motor slow or bog with anything I've thrown at it.

Before you assume you can drop a $200 single phase motor in it (in case the phase converter doesn't), bear in mind that PM engineered the motor and bracket in some funky way to reduce the effort needed to raise the blade. I've read that not just any motor will work, and that a usable motor from PM is pretty spendy.

[David Freed]

One thing to keep in mind on phase converters is that many, especially homemade ones, are very inefficient. Some may be as low as 50%. For years I only looked at machines with single phase motors because I do not have access to 3 phase power, unless I would spend $20,000 to run a line 1 mile. When I started looking into getting a moulder, I took the time to learn about all the different aspects to be considered, including 3 phase motors and converters, because this was going to be an expensive investment and I wanted to make the right choice. I finally decided to go with 3 phase and got an American Rotary phase converter. Their converters are soft start, cnc rated and are over 90% efficient. 3 phase motors are cheaper to buy and last longer. I have since bought another machine that is 3 phase (a 10 hp Woodmaster set up as a gangrip saw) and I am considering getting a 7 1/2 hp 3 phase motor to replace the 5 hp single phase on my planer. I didn't realize how much better 3 phase was untill I actually started using it.

[Kyle Kraft]

We have a 12" PM at work and I find, as others have stated, that it's a bit of an awkward reach to the blade. It is farther back from the front edge of the table top than on 10" saws which I am used to using.

[Chuck Saunders]

I worked with a 72 (late 70's model) for a decade in my old job. Replaced the bearings once and the starter contactors once. My favorite saw ever.

[Randal Stevenson]

I worked with a 72 (late 70's model) for a decade in my old job. Replaced the bearings once and the starter contactors once. My favorite saw ever.

So Chuck, did you go look at the one that is on CL now? $750 posted Yesterday.

[Chuck Saunders]

Randal, I believe you may be the devil :). Luckily I have been blessed with poverty ( in part due to going to Metro Hardwoods ) by our new house and will be able to resist. That, and I am wanting a bandsaw and a jointer before I add to my unisaw. But a 72 is enough to tempt me something fierce.

Update, I looked at the saw on CL and it's a good thing I don't have the money. I love the green PM