Ever wonder what happens if you don't clean your cyclone?

[Wade Lippman]

I was drum sanding large panels and noticed there was some dust on them! I pulled the hose off and found the suction wasn't normal; I figured it was time to clean the filters. Only the filter cleaner wouldn't even turn.

The drums (Oneida Portable... two cyclones, two drums) were full. On one the drum and the hose going to the cyclone were full; on the other the entire cyclone and filter were full.

It took me an hour to clean up, but then she worked like nothing ever happened.

Well, I emptied them just before starting the new project; now I know their capacity is 60bf of jointing, planing, and sanding.

[Jim Becker]

Yup....been there, done that. Overfilling the bin and the resulting "impacted" filter is a "no fun" moment... :(

[Jeff Wright]

I've got you both beat. I overfilled my Oneida drum twice in two days! Didn't think I was doing that much woodworking, but the clogged filter told me otherwise.

[bob cohen]

first time I did that, I said never again. Too bad I wasn't listening

[Robert Payne]

Well guys, you need to implement Alan Schaffter's Bin Sensor on your cyclones! Alan posted this thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=728329&highlight=sensor#post728329) recently that refers to his electric eye based sensor that he built more than a year ago for his shop-built cyclone (links in the thread above).

I bought a ClearVue CV1800 cyclone and have adapted Alan's idea into a version that incorporates a 110V remote controlled outlet to feed power through a small relay's normally closed contacts to a 230V/30Amp contactor relay that handles the 5HP motor power. I use the same basic circuit from Alan's system and use the signal from the electric eye to energize the small relay, shutting down the cyclone and turning on an indicator lamp in my shop telling me the bin is full (my cyclone is in a tall crawl space under my shop). Here a circuit diagram of my system.
http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/378/medium/control4.jpg
...and a photo of the 6"x6"x4" junction box with the relays.
http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/378/medium/100_4544.jpg
... and finally, a picture of a mockup board showing the 7W candelabra in the upper handy box and the photoelectric eye in the side of the lower one. http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/378/medium/100_4547.jpg
These are placed either side of a starter collar on top of the bin below the cyclone. The parts are readily available (photo eye is for a dusk-to-dawn control for a yard light for <$13 from either of the BORGs), and all parts totaled less than $50 + the 30A contactor. The service switch bypasses the electric eye while you empty the bin so any light hitting the electric eye won't start the DC again in case you forgot to hit the Off button on the remote control. Because of a second or so response time in the electric eye circuitry, false shutoffs are minimal. Alan also recommends adding a tube 6" or so into the bin so the sensor is activated before it is totally filled.

[Todd Crow]

I also implemented Alan Schaffter's Bin Sensor on my cyclone. I tried a different photeye with limited sucess. Seems some of the photoeye sensors have a delay built into them. Once I bought the Summit Lighting CP688 photoeye (Lowes part #70551) it worked awesome!

I took a piece of 2x4 and cut a curve in it to conform to the flex between the cyclone and dust bin. Drilled a hole in the center of the board and attached the sensor through the board. I cut a 6" hose clap in half and attached it to the board and clamped that onto the flex.

http://www.crowsnest.us/images/DCP_0894.jpg

You need good light for the sensor to think it is daytime.

http://www.crowsnest.us/images/DCP_0898.jpg

I bought a strobe on Ebay for $45 that I plug the output of the sensor into. So when the dust bin get full and the dust starts filling the flex the dust will block the light and the sensor will power the strobe. I might have to put a horn on as well, I will try this first.

http://www.crowsnest.us/images/DCP_0897.jpg

[Wade Lippman]

I also implemented Alan Schaffter's Bin Sensor on my cyclone. I tried a different photeye with limited sucess. Seems some of the photoeye sensors have a delay built into them. Once I bought the Summit Lighting CP688 photoeye (Lowes part #70551) it worked awesome!

I took a piece of 2x4 and cut a curve in it to conform to the flex between the cyclone and dust bin. Drilled a hole in the center of the board and attached the sensor through the board. I cut a 6" hose clap in half and attached it to the board and clamped that onto the flex.


Okay, a project for next week! Thanks.

[John Thompson]

I had it happen once when planing poplar down for drawers. Noticed that the flow decreased. The cyclone was full and the double filters were full as the chips had no place to go as has been stated. Took over 3 hours to clean it with compressed air and neglected long enough or often enough can fry the motor.

The sensors look good, but for $5.00 purchase a blast gate and either cut a hole about 3/4 way up the drum on the side.. or cut a hole in the lid. Seal it with silcone.. If you have any suction through the gate door as it is not exactly an air-tight device, just use some duct tape to seal it competely. Duct tape is easy-on.. easy off.

At that point you either open the side gate or lid gate and shine a flash-light in. I do it every 15-20 minutes when planing as it it doesn't take long with those fine shavings. And... I have not and do not anticipate any problem with over-fill after I stupidly stepped over the log without looking and the "Rattler" bite me. :)

I realize it isn't high-tech.. but it works fine for me...

Sarge..

[JayStPeter]

First time I did it, my son came down and hit the remote control right after I had removed the bin and filter. While it did get the packed in material out of the cyclone body and outlet, I don't recommend it as the best way to go. :rolleyes:

[Jim Becker]

At the present time, I just have a window in the top of my bin..which works great as long as I remember to actually look at it!!

http://sawsndust.com/images/webdisplay/bin-window-500.jpg

[Bob Wingard]

I got REALLY lucky on this one .. .. picked up a surplus BINDICATOR. It is the "tuning-fork" style, and has 4 sets of contacts in it .. 2 N/C & 2 N/O. When the bin fills up, all contacts change state, so it turns ON a 110v strobe light, and 20 sec. later, it drops power to the motor relay, stopping the blower. Haven't got the entire Clear-Vue setup just yet, but the electronics are wired and ready to go.

[Alan Schaffter]

Thanks to Rob and Todd for posting pics of my design. My shop is above my garage and the cyclone at garage level. I overfilled my bag (cyclone is a push-through so no bin) too many times, so after looking at the options available, including Sugi's design on Bill Pentz's site and the expensive sychronous motor based unit sold by Oneida, I decided I would attempt what had not worked previously for others- an optical high dust alarm.

After a short amount of experimentation, I luckily discovered a few things- replacement dusk to dawn photo eyes are readily available and relatively inexpensive, they are simple in design, have a 110V output (to power a light/alarm), and WILL work to detect a high dust situation but most importantly, need a supplemental light source and must be mounted where the cyclonic air flow keeps the sensor and light source free from dust until a high dust situation blocks the path.

My original installation is still working perfectly after more than a year!! It is connected slightly differently than Rob's due to differences in our control wiring, but it is also wired so it shuts off the DC in a high dust condition. Since I use a bag and don't have a dust bin, I mounted the sensor and light at bottom of the cyclone cone. Though it works with a bright enough supplemental light source through the flex that connects most cyclones to the drum, I think it is better to mount it to a section of duct that has been added to the bin- both for light transmission issues and to control the level of dust in your bin (see sketch below).

I have tried to interest ClearVue, Grizzly, and Oneida in my design, but while ClearVue and Oneida have shown some interest, it has not gone anywhere yet.

Here are some pics of my original setup, a portable version I made for a friend, and the sketch of my recommended installation method.

Photo eye available at most big box stores:
http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/HighDust-1.JPG

Sensor mounted on my cyclone during testing: (nice Bondo job? :D )
http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/HighDust-8.JPG

Light source:
http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/HighDust-6.JPG

Basic circuit sketch and mounting recommendation:
http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/HighDust-10.JPG

Portable, self-contained high dust alarm:
http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/P2260032.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/P2270046.JPG

[John Thompson]

I have a feeling Jim, that will be all you will ever need. As far as not looking to check... I have my serious doubts as to that from the through-ness of your post along with the content. You can fool some the of the people some of the time.. but............ :)

BTW.. very clever little device. Did you purchase it or just make it? I do believe one could take a square piece of wood.. cut a squre hole and recess the bottom a standard piece of plexi-glass would sit it would work as the metal.

Field expendeincy rules the day and saves a few dollars for anniversary gifts to boot.... :D

Sarge..

[Louis Rucci]

What a timely post. I have ClearVue and will definietly incorporate this in my system.

Many thanks

[Bob Rufener]

My grandmother, who immigrated here from Switzerland, would have said: verstopft

[Matt Meiser]

Been there, done that, spent a couple hours cleaning my filters. Now I vent outside. I also bought a surplus industrial bin level sensor on Ebay, but I need to get it wired up again.

[Thomas Canfield]

I installed a plexiglass window about 1/3 down from top on the side of the bin. My experience is that you need to catch it before the downcomer is full or the cyclone action will cause the dust to carry out. It doesn't take long at all to have the filter get into a big mess. A few minutes additional time emptying the bin before it is needed pays off greatly in not having to spend an hour to clean a plugged filter. I would strongly recommend putting any sensor on the side of the bin. You can make a curved wood frame to mount a flat plexiglass viewport or other sensor. A few screws and silicone caulk does the mounting and sealing job.

[Alan Schaffter]

I installed a plexiglass window about 1/3 down from top on the side of the bin. My experience is that you need to catch it before the downcomer is full or the cyclone action will cause the dust to carry out. It doesn't take long at all to have the filter get into a big mess. A few minutes additional time emptying the bin before it is needed pays off greatly in not having to spend an hour to clean a plugged filter. I would strongly recommend putting any sensor on the side of the bin. You can make a curved wood frame to mount a flat plexiglass viewport or other sensor. A few screws and silicone caulk does the mounting and sealing job.

A window without any sensor only works if you can see it and remember to look. From what I have heard, a lot of folks forget or can't see it. It is easy to get engrossed in planing, sanding, etc. and forget to look.

The sensor reacts quickly- typically less than three seconds when light is blocked, and if the system is rigged to shut off the cyclone like on my home and Rob's systems, adequately protects the filters. It works on mine even though sensor and light are located in the less than optimal position on the cone. Note- I have a very tall 3:1 cyclone (cone length is three times the diameter of the cylinder), not the typical 1.64:1 cyclone. My rough sketch is not to scale; I recommend locating the sensor and light no more than 1" -2" above the bin lid. Again, the reason for mounting them above, instead of inside the bin, is that the cyclonic air flow which still exists in the downcomer, keeps dust from statically adhering to and obscuring the sensor and light window - which will happen if they are mounted in the bin.

As I said, my system has been working great for over a year- I have not had to clean the filters yet and don't expect to need to do so anytime soon.

[John Thompson]

With all due respect Alan... I have to agree with Thomas that you should not allow the chips to exceed 2/3 or 3/4 maximum in the bin. I have found that to do so.. the flow is reduced and the fine dust does not get separated as it should. It puts a restriction on what the cyclone is capable of with a bin that is not allowed to fill completely as the manufacturer and all data I have seen suggests.

As far as forgetting to look or inspect.. that is a problem I don't have personally after it happened the first time. I have over 200 sky-dives and if you don't look at your altimeter sitting on your reserve chute... your sky-diving career will be shortened. So will the life of your cyclone by allowing it to fill the chip bin entirely IMO. I keep that in mind as I don't look at my system as dis-posable.

Not trying to stir up controversy.. but it is something that needs to be pondered and possibly discussed before one derives at an optimal solution . I think the electronic device is a great idea.. but it has to be placed at a height for the reason you stated I am not personally satisfied with on my system.

I do check frequently as I have disciplined myself to do so. A quck glance wtih a flash-light or actually putting my hand inside tells me what I want to know and how to react. If I am at empty point and not done planing or jointing.. I have a DC with an extra 4" hose Y'ed off the main port that gets dropped in my Cyclone blast gate inspection hole to take off excess till I finish. Then I empty the bin on the cyclone after the fact and the DC uses a clear plastic bag to tell me when to empty it.

Again.. just my personal thoughts and how I approach the issue. Each of us has the option of doing it the way we feel is best for us. That's the American way.. and it doen't get any better than that as I see it.

Regards...

Sarge..

[Matt Meiser]

The optimal time to empty and having a backup safety device are mutually exclusive. When I had my bin indicator hooked up, and when I do again, I'll still take the time to check from time to time. But when i forget and am planing away, at least it will warn me down before it plugs everything up. Mine shuts down at about 7/8 full, but had I seen something like this, it would have been a lot cheaper than my current solution--even with getting a decent deal on the device on Ebay.

[Alan Schaffter]

With all due respect Alan... I have to agree with Thomas that you should not allow the chips to exceed 2/3 or 3/4 maximum in the bin. I have found that to do so.. the flow is reduced and the fine dust does not get separated as it should. It puts a restriction on what the cyclone is capable of with a bin that is not allowed to fill completely as the manufacturer and all data I have seen suggests.

As far as forgetting to look or inspect.. that is a problem I don't have personally after it happened the first time. I have over 200 sky-dives and if you don't look at your altimeter sitting on your reserve chute... your sky-diving career will be shortened. So will the life of your cyclone by allowing it to fill the chip bin entirely IMO. I keep that in mind as I don't look at my system as dis-posable.

Not trying to stir up controversy.. but it is something that needs to be pondered and possibly discussed before one derives at an optimal solution . I think the electronic device is a great idea.. but it has to be placed at a height for the reason you stated I am not personally satisfied with on my system.

I do check frequently as I have disciplined myself to do so. A quck glance wtih a flash-light or actually putting my hand inside tells me what I want to know and how to react. If I am at empty point and not done planing or jointing.. I have a DC with an extra 4" hose Y'ed off the main port that gets dropped in my Cyclone blast gate inspection hole to take off excess till I finish. Then I empty the bin on the cyclone after the fact and the DC uses a clear plastic bag to tell me when to empty it.

Again.. just my personal thoughts and how I approach the issue. Each of us has the option of doing it the way we feel is best for us. That's the American way.. and it doen't get any better than that as I see it.

Regards...

Sarge..

Separation of dust (chips and fines) and occurs higher up in the cyclone where the velocity is at max. That is why the diameter of the cylinder, length of central outlet and how much it extends below the spiral inlet ramp in a ClearVue and other similarly equipped cyclones, and the length of the cone are much more critical than the distance between the outlet and the dust bin. If the cyclonic flow is as it should be and the reversal point is where is should be and the air begins to exit the central tube correctly, then what happens in the bin is almost of no importance as the velocity is so low there.

Regardless, the bottom line is, if you have no sensor, rely on manual checks, or are contemplating buying $200+ dust sensor instead of something like I am using, you are doing yourself a disservice and are likely to pay the price of the nasty job of cleaning and even reducing the life of your filter(s).

[John Thompson]

I won't dis-agree with your assessment of the first part of your post Alan other than not all cone ratio's are the same. On my machine the air flow will decrease as the bin fills higher as I can see it. I have clear pipe and can see the chip movement through almost my entire system until it gets to the clone itself.

I certainly am no cyclone expert and it appears to me that even they contradict each other more often than I would like to see. Mr. Pentz will contradict Oneida.. Oneida will contradict Bill Pentz and then throw in Penn State who will contradict both as both will Penn State. Whatever turns them on....

But.. I will say that what you stated about dis-service may be true except for manual checks. I have had the system back up once and I don't intend for it to happen again. I do manual checks very frequently which takes about 30 seconds maximum. This is not a diffucult task.

And yes.. there are probably some that are lazy.. forget.. un-attentive.. etc. that won't do it frequently. Then I agree something is better than nothing and would highly suggest the device. But those that are un-attentive to thier machines probably should not put themselves in a scenario of cutting blades traveling at high speed as I see it.

I have a temperature gauge on my vehicles. I won't purchase one with an just a warning light. By the time the light comes on.. I have seen too many cases of "too little.. too late".. having been in the Muscle Car Restoration business for a long period.

Not only do I have a temperature gauge.. I use it as I glance at it every 3-5 minutes driving for a quick check. If engine temperature is going up from normal... I can take evasive action before the fact and not rely on a light to come on after the fact.

And I do agree that using a device of this nature is not a bad insurance option at all. But attentive measures in advance I feel are the best option "for me" and of course it's just my opinion as all the info we see here on these forum chats.

Regards...

Sarge..