Great planes that don't break the bank? [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

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Grant Vanbokklen

03-14-2008, 10:44 PM

Brian Kent

03-14-2008, 11:21 PM

Jim Koepke

03-15-2008, 4:03 AM

I would like to get some planes. Ones that when tuned up right are about as good as any. What would be the best planes to keep my eye out for that are the best for the money? Keepers that you'd want to use for your woodworking lifetime.

There are many questions before an answer can be formulated.

Did you want to do the tuning or did you want to buy something that works when it arrives at your doorstep?

Do you have the time and patience to learn about tuning planes?

Do you have sharpening experience?

How far down the slippery slope are you willing to slide?

It would depend a lot on what kind of work you are doing. General work would be a block plane, a smoother and maybe a mid size to joiner size.

There are also different options to consider based on the size of your hands. Small to medium hands, a Stanley 60-1/2 size block plane. Large hands might like a block plane the size of a 65.

In the smoothers, the No. 3, 4 & 4-1/2 are all about the same length. The No. 3 has a 1-3/4" blade, the 4 has a 2" blade and the 4-1/2 has a 2-3/8" blade. The physics of friction make the No. 3 a little easier to push over wood.

What other tools do you have for prepping wood?
How rough or finished is the wood you work on?

It would also depend on how many planes you want to acquire or if you want to limit the number of planes in your shop.

Then, do you want matching planes or is a mixture of makers acceptable.

Most of my knowledge is about Stanley products. There are other quality makers of planes. Some of the adjustments work differently. As an example, on a Stanley plane, the lateral adjuster is moved toward the side of the blade that is cutting deeper to lessen the depth of cut. On my Union plane, the lever is pushed in the direction one wants to increase the depth of cut. This is because of the relationship of the pivot pin and the disk that moves the blade. Early Stanley planes increase the depth of the blade by turning the adjuster to the left. Around 1890, this was changed to increasing the depth of cut by turning the adjuster to the right.

This can cause confusion. I do not know what direction the adjuster is turned on a Sargent or Millers Falls plane. It has to be one way or the other.

Here is a site that can overload the senses and cause plane lovers to drool.

http://www.supertool.com

Have fun,

jim

Billy Chambless

03-15-2008, 7:49 AM

First off, I'll say I agree with the points Jim raises.

Generally, the more tuning you're willing to do, the less you have to spend.
The more hunting at flea markets, etc. you're willing to do, the less you have to spend.

Stanley bench planes from type 17 through type 19 are slightly less in demand than earlier models, while still being good users. Sometimes good Sargent or Millers Falls planes go cheap. If you're willing to accept a plane with a broken, missing, or repaired knob or tote, the price goes down again.

If you do a search here on "reputable sources", several good dealers are mentioned. Between Walt Quadrato and Sandy Moss, I've put together a pretty good set of usable planes for very little money, and most of them didn't require much tuning at all.

Terry Beadle

03-15-2008, 8:35 AM

I would highly recommend one of Steve Knights kits. This would give you a plane of outstanding quality and the experience of setting a plane up, tuning and enjoying high quality. It will last a life time and more.

josh bjork

03-15-2008, 10:54 AM

Three planes I love:

11" Rosewood Jack Plane
http://japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98%2E105%2E9050&dept_id=13602

9" Rosewood High Angle Polish Plane
http://japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98%2E107%2E2155&dept_id=13602

Rosewood Small Polishing Plane
http://japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98%2E105%2E1155&dept_id=13602

Total cost $120

I'm with brian. Forget the bandwagon. The planes brian mentioned have nice blades in them. For the price of one hock blade you can buy a whole plane! One that won't be wrecked if it gets dropped. I was just planing some ipe last night with one I made with a replacement blade from the ones he mentions.

Grant Vanbokklen

03-15-2008, 10:56 AM

"There are many questions before an answer can be formulated.
Did you want to do the tuning or did you want to buy something that works when it arrives at your doorstep?"

that would be OK, but not necessary. I would like to get something that is able to be an excellent user.

"Do you have the time and patience to learn about tuning planes?"

Yes, that i would think would be the only way to really know how to use planes. I can't imagine it being that hard. I'm pretty good with tools and have years of experience with other tools.

"Do you have sharpening experience?"

I do have some. I was taught by a shipwright how to sharpen chisels on a grinder and oil stones many years ago. I bought a sharpening jig and some water stones for my chisels and block planes 15yrs ago. But when I saw the Jet wet sharpener deal a few month back got too. With all methods I always been able to shave the hair off my arm.

"How far down the slippery slope are you willing to slide?"

As far as I need to learn how best get the job done

"It would depend a lot on what kind of work you are doing. General work would be a block plane, a smoother and maybe a mid size to joiner size."

That's sort of what I was thinking, eventually getting all of those. Maybe starting with a #4 as a first purchase. I've got a couple of 70s Stanley block planes that I bought back then. What I would like to learn is shooting boards and other more advanced plane techniques eventually. I'm considering renting the video series by David Charlesworth before I make a purchase. Would that be $26 well spent to learn about the use of planes?

Have fun,
jim

I know it will be. Thanks Jim!

Grant Vanbokklen

03-15-2008, 11:16 AM

The more hunting at flea markets, etc. you're willing to do, the less you have to spend.

Stanley bench planes from type 17 through type 19 are slightly less in demand than earlier models, while still being good users. Sometimes good Sargent or Millers Falls planes go cheap. If you're willing to accept a plane with a broken, missing, or repaired knob or tote, the price goes down again.

If you do a search here on "reputable sources", several good dealers are mentioned. Between Walt Quadrato and Sandy Moss, I've put together a pretty good set of usable planes for very little money, and most of them didn't require much tuning at all.

I don't think I have the time for flea markets and don't have much patience for eBay these days. I searched there recently and it got me a bit frustrated. I don't want to get something that is too far gone to be perfect again. About the type 17-19, I was wondering about what Stanleys might be good to look at for a user, not a collector. I'll do that search for reputable sources. Thanks!

Grant Vanbokklen

03-15-2008, 11:22 AM

Three planes I love:

11" Rosewood Jack Plane
http://japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98%2E105%2E9050&dept_id=13602

9" Rosewood High Angle Polish Plane
http://japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98%2E107%2E2155&dept_id=13602

Rosewood Small Polishing Plane
http://japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98%2E105%2E1155&dept_id=13602

Total cost $120

I'm a bit hesitant to go this route. For some reason I leaning going the more domestic technique with the Stanley style planes.

Billy Chambless

03-15-2008, 11:43 AM

I don't think I have the time for flea markets and don't have much patience for eBay these days. I searched there recently and it got me a bit frustrated. I don't want to get something that is too far gone to be perfect again. About the type 17-19, I was wondering about what Stanleys might be good to look at for a user, not a collector. I'll do that search for reputable sources. Thanks!

I get a kick out of watching planes on ebay and seeing them go for more than I paid a dealer for the same model. ;)

Jim Koepke

03-15-2008, 1:13 PM

Do you have the time and patience to learn about tuning planes?

Yes, that i would think would be the only way to really know how to use planes. I can't imagine it being that hard. I'm pretty good with tools and have years of experience with other tools.

Great, then you are ready to go for a ride on the long slippery slope.
Be careful though, I have found myself looking at #4s at a flea market or yard sale and forgetting that I have 5 at home. Fettling a plane can become as enjoyable as using one. It is not that hard to do.

Do you have sharpening experience?

I do have some. I was taught by a shipwright how to sharpen chisels on a grinder and oil stones many years ago. I bought a sharpening jig and some water stones for my chisels and block planes 15yrs ago. But when I saw the Jet wet sharpener deal a few month back got too. With all methods I always been able to shave the hair off my arm.

Great, that is often about the only thing one needs to do with an old plane. Getting sharp is half the task.

It would depend a lot on what kind of work you are doing. General work would be a block plane, a smoother and maybe a mid size to joiner size.

That's sort of what I was thinking, eventually getting all of those. Maybe starting with a #4 as a first purchase. I've got a couple of 70s Stanley block planes that I bought back then. What I would like to learn is shooting boards and other more advanced plane techniques eventually. I'm considering renting the video series by David Charlesworth before I make a purchase. Would that be $26 well spent to learn about the use of planes?

The #4 is a good size to have and as plentiful as planes can get.
Different folks will have different likes and dislikes over what 'type' they choose for their tool box. Mine planes are almost all Stanley with a few exceptions. Parts a plentiful if they are needed. Even if one wants to restore a plane, there are a lot of 'date correct' parts from many sources.

For my use, a low front knob fits my hand better. This was no longer used after about 1920, type 11 was the last. The type 10 & later have a frog adjustment screw (dropped on some during WWII) that many folks like, though to me they are not that important.

Types 12 through 15 are from what is called the Sweet Hart era. Some will pay a lot more for the Stanley production items from this time period. Others feel this was the last of the great items made by Stanley. That debate will still be going on when my great grandchildren are enjoying (or selling) my tools.

I do not like the change to the frog at type 16. There is less surface area for contact with the blade. It surely was a cost reduction in the amount of machining required to manufacture. Here is a site with lots of pictures to help make sense of all this type talk:

https://home.comcast.net/~rarebear/planes101/typing/typing.htm

There are some others, but this is a good starting point.

If you watch the auction site that shall not be named at all, you may find out that replacement totes & knobs often get bid higher than planes with useable totes & knobs. The above site has some tutorials on repairing totes.

Then it comes down to where are you going to find this plane?

There are a few folks here that sell planes. You could post a new thread with a WTB and wait for answers.

I have a #4 of WWII vintage that I want to sell, but it is one that made me feel that there was something wrong with #4 size planes. I would feel bad selling it to anyone looking for a quality plane. I have done a little playing with it, but something just is not right. I have two other #4s that had/have sole problems.

The first was a junker I bought for parts. It had a very pitted and rusty sole. One day a belt sander was used on it after trying to flatten it with just heavy sand paper. It took a long time just to get it to where it has light pitting on the sole. The plane does not look great, the sole still looks pitiful, but it works great.

The second one looked like crap when I saw it for $7.50 in an antique shop in Oregon. (no sales tax, woo hoo!) I was buying it because it had a repairable tote and it is an early type 6. The blade adjuster has the Bailey patent stamp inside. I have seen these go for more than $7.50 on that auction site. The front knob was missing, but there was a newer one I talked the dealer out of. The base was chipped at the front, an ugly step child of a plane. My biggest heart break on this one is finding a micro crack at one side of the mouth when cleaning the sole. That plane is now my go to user #4. Maybe someday a new base will be found.

Do not throw out a bad base, they are handy for mounting totes or knobs while working on them. I have a couple of broken ones that have been sawn to size and filed to smooth the edges. Mounting a handle then sticking it in a vise makes it easy to do sanding or other finishing.

My hands are not real big, but feel a little cramped in some totes. So a few quick licks with rasp and sand paper "opens up the curve at the bottom to make more room for my pinky.

The two other #4 size planes on my shelf consist of a 604c that is a great plane, but is likely to get sold at auction. If a round tuit comes my way this weekend will be the time to do it.

Then there is the Union plane my father gave me a couple of years ago. He was not sure if it was his father's or originally his grand father's. The Union plane came with a thicker blade before Stanley bought the company in about 1920. This was the first #4 size plane that worked right for me. It will likely stay in the family.

So, that is why there are so many #4s in my garage without a lot for the auction block.

Maybe I will just get away from the pixel machine and get to work, in a while.

jim

I don't mind going nowhere as long as it's an interesting path.

Grant Vanbokklen

03-15-2008, 2:00 PM

I get a kick out of watching planes on ebay and seeing them go for more than I paid a dealer for the same model. ;)

That is why I posted recently about collectors not using them. It is a classic woodworking tool, but I'm not sure what is a right price or not. I can only imagine that many are buying them to collect and not use.

I need to find out what I should expect to pay for a #4 or #5 type 17-19. But still eBay these days is a hassle, with bids coming at the last second that are higher than it should be. I don't have the time for that.

Grant Vanbokklen

03-15-2008, 2:22 PM

Thanks Jim, I'm learning. I've not seen that site before. Very helpful for me to understand the Stanley "types" the way that site shows the picture for the differences.

Have you seen that video set by David Charlesworth that I mentioned? I saw some clips of the 3 series on planes somewhere and that is what got my interest, especially in shooting boards. Do you do any of the techniques with shooting boards? I could rent the three dvd's for about $26 for a week. Not sure I'd want to pay $90 to buy them.

Fred Strumpf

03-15-2008, 2:54 PM

Billy Chambless

03-15-2008, 2:55 PM

That is why I posted recently about collectors not using them. It is a classic woodworking tool, but I'm not sure what is a right price or not. I can only imagine that many are buying them to collect and not use.

Could be. Or... some people go nuts during an auction and have to WIN.

I need to find out what I should expect to pay for a #4 or #5 type 17-19. But still eBay these days is a hassle, with bids coming at the last second that are higher than it should be. I don't have the time for that.

Two data points: I got a nice #5 type 19 for $35 last year and a #4 type 17 for $30 this month from Walt. Both arrived in good working condition.

My ebay strategy lately has been to just bid what I'm willing to pay, then get away from the computer. If somebody else buys it, I haven't lost anything. It's easy to become over eager, especially at first.

Grant Vanbokklen

03-15-2008, 3:11 PM

Two data points: I got a nice #5 type 19 for $35 last year and a #4 type 17 for $30 this month from Walt. Both arrived in good working condition.

Thanks for the pricing insight. I guess your right, place a bid and walk away, if you win you win if not there is alway more. It would be nice to buy from someone that you can trust though.

Michael Faurot

03-15-2008, 3:18 PM

Have you seen that video set by David Charlesworth that I mentioned?

I've not seen them. I've read some of the articles that David Charlesworth has written in Popular Woodworking. Well written articles, but I can't say as I necessarily agree with everything he has to say. In particular, I'm not too fond of the concept of cambering plane blades.

I saw some clips of the 3 series on planes somewhere and that is what got my interest, especially in shooting boards. Do you do any of the techniques with shooting boards? I could rent the three dvd's for about $26 for a week. Not sure I'd want to pay $90 to buy them.If you'd like to get more of a feel for a shooting board, you can get a copy of the plans for David Charesworth's shooting board (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/pdf/shootingboard.pdf) in PDF format from Lie-Nielsen's web site.

I've not built this particular shooting board myself, but do use one frequently. It's a great aid for squaring up stock. I've been using the Veritas Low Angle Bevel-Up Jack with mine, coupled with the 25 degree blade (effective angle of 37 degrees) for shooting end grain.

Jim Koepke

03-15-2008, 3:39 PM

Jim Koepke

03-15-2008, 3:43 PM

If you'd like to get more of a feel for a shooting board, you can get a copy of the plans for David Charesworth's shooting board (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/pdf/shootingboard.pdf) in PDF format from Lie-Nielsen's web site.

Mine are a little different, just about to go out for a while. Will try to take some pics later.

All this talk has me taking pictures of stuff to list on that auction site that shall not be named.

jtk

Billy Chambless

03-15-2008, 4:15 PM

It would be nice to buy from someone that you can trust though.

Oh, I agree. If I need a tool right away, I call one of the dealers mentioned, or *gasp* buy new. I do watch ebay for items on my long-term wish list. Recently I got a Craftsman (Sargent) rabbet plane for 17 bucks, and about a quart of pretty good chisels for $21. The chisels included several sizes that I needed, and some of them might have gone individually for $10-20.

Jim Koepke

03-15-2008, 7:24 PM

I hope this is the correct forum.

I recently purchased two stanleys at a flea market, but am not sure I have dated them correctly.

1. No. 2, thought it was a 19.
No patent dates, Bailey behind the front knob, Made in USA behind the frog, Raised casting for knob and tote. Black painted, It has a "C" under the tote, no frog adjustment.
2.No. 5 1/2 still in the box, no patent dates, bailey in front of the knob, made in the usa behind, Raised knob and tote casting, all original bown/red paint. no frog adjuster.

I bought both as users and will bring them up to speed.

Any info or advise would be appreciated.

Yours in cast iron dust

Fred

The No. 2 never had the frog adjustment, iirc. Those usually go in the $200 range on the auction site that shall not be named. If it is too small for your hands, I could send you my address. Otherwise, you could auction it or trade it for a bunch of other planes.

It is Okay to gloat if you want to tell us how good a deal you got.

Here are a couple of type studies from my bookmarks. They come in handy if you ever want information on date appropriate parts or as an aid to identify something from a poor quality picture.

https://home.comcast.net/~rarebear/planes101/typing/typing.htm

Dann Barr posted this one in a previous thread:

http://primeshop.com/access/woodwork/stanleyplane/pftsynch.htm

Clint Jones posted one he likes:

http://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/stanley_bench_plane/dating/dating_flowchart.html#Types%201-20

It works by typing in the answers to a few questions. For quick typing if you just want a number, this is very good.

If you have a little time, there is a libraries worth of good information in the old threads here.

It will give you a chance to meet a lot of great people with at least one similar interest through their writings.

It may give one a bit of slippery slope overload, but expanding minds only hurt a little, when the head stops swelling.

jim

Nostalgia just ain't what it use to be.

Grant Vanbokklen

03-15-2008, 8:34 PM

For the price of one hock blade you can buy a whole plane!

Hock blades seem to have a premium price tag. Are they worth it? Are they the only after-market blade suppliers? What options do you have if you need a new blade for a plane?

Marcus Ward

03-16-2008, 2:11 AM

Jim Koepke

03-16-2008, 2:27 AM

The original blades work fine, the difference is the hock blades are already sharp and square. People have a hard time with the squaring up / initial bevel operation, so they get a hock blade and they're like holy crap! It's the best evar!!! When really all it is is sharpened properly. Learn to sharpen, and pert near any blade will work.

Just recently, I bought some Hock blades. They are impressive, but there really is not much difference between them and a properly sharpened stock blade.

If you do not know what sharp is, then you could buy one as a benchmark.

I did a post on that just recently.

It was also discovered that an 8000 stone will get a Hock blade slightly sharper than when it is new. My experience is only with the High Carbon blades.

The extra thickness of the Hock blade and chip breaker do make a slight difference in the feel of the plane's action.

The Hock blades are installed in three of my planes. The original blades are being saved.

jim

Fred Strumpf

03-16-2008, 8:57 AM

Thanks for the feedback.

$35 at a local fleamarket.

Jim Koepke

03-16-2008, 3:06 PM

Thanks for the feedback.

$35 at a local fleamarket.

Heck, I am always confused.

The 5-1/2 is easy to under stand.

Are you saying you picked up a Stanley No.2 for $35 or a type 2 Stanley 5-1/2. I didn't think they came along until later in the making.

Pictures always help.

jim

Brian Ward

03-16-2008, 4:14 PM

The Hock blades come with their backs rather well-flattened and therefore do not require much work to sharpen. That alone makes a difference to a lot of people.

The extra thickness has one somewhat minor advantage when it comes to tuning--you don't need to shove the frog as far forward when you're tightening the mouth on a Bailey-style plane. If the frog/bed mating surfaces are a little funky , I could imagine that it could make the process more difficult than usual.

I've got a Hock blade/cap iron set on a jointer, and all of my other planes have the stock blades. With everything sharpened, all of them perform basically the same, but it was kind of enjoyable not to have to mess around with the jointer so much (it didn't have a blade when I assembled it from various pieces, and I didn't feel like playing ebay roulette or whatever).

I recently replaced the cap iron ("chipbreaker") in one of my smoother planes with the Hock version, but kept the stock blade. I like its shape--it's a easier to see the mouth when you're adjusting it, and perhaps there's more room for the chips to clear now (dunno, need to use it more). I had to file a bit off the fastening screw to keep it away from the lever cap.

Jim Koepke

03-16-2008, 5:26 PM

I recently replaced the cap iron ("chipbreaker") in one of my smoother planes with the Hock version, but kept the stock blade. I like its shape--it's a easier to see the mouth when you're adjusting it, and perhaps there's more room for the chips to clear now (dunno, need to use it more). I had to file a bit off the fastening screw to keep it away from the lever cap.

By any chance was that a #3? The same thing happened to me. I mentioned it to Ron Hock. He said only a few people have mentioned it. My thought was the screw could be a thread or two shorter.

jim

Fred Strumpf

03-16-2008, 5:47 PM

I picked up the no. 2 for $35

The 5 1/2 came in a box with a lot of junk for $30.

I did not buy these from a tool dealer, it was from a young guy tag saling his dad's tools at the flea market. I got there just as he was unpacking. He was happy with what i PAID, and i thought it was a good deal for me, didn't know how good until I started getting feedback from you guys, here and in another thread.

You will see that I am very new to this forum, and look forward to learning a lot more.

Regards

Fred

Brian Ward

03-16-2008, 5:53 PM

By any chance was that a #3? The same thing happened to me. I mentioned it to Ron Hock. He said only a few people have mentioned it. My thought was the screw could be a thread or two shorter.

It's a Millers Falls #9 (Stanley #4 size). It would have probably been fine on a real #4 or #5. The rivet that holds the backing spring for the cam is in the exact wrong spot on the MF three-point lever cap. But it was no big deal to file down the cap screw.