handsawing techniqes

[Kieran Kammerer]

In an effort to move to the neander side, I am attempting to improve my skill with hand tools. This past week I have been concentrating on my dovetail sawing techniques. Although I am sure this has been answered numerous times before, I am curious as to what people feel is the easiest way to get cuts started accurately in the ends of boards? I have been attempting Ian Kirby's method of raising the heel of the saw just a bit and allowing the saw's weight to cut the initial kerf. At times however, the saw seems to be slipping sideways and marring the end grain. Any and all suggestions greatly appreciated.

Kieran

[Mark Singer]

I guide it with my thumb. Try to relax and let the saw start a kerf. If you start on the corner of the end and the face you can start with no marring. Cut a piece of wood and make marks with a square about 1/4" apart and put it in a vice and practice. It really helps. I do it before each dovetail project to tune up.

[Eric Hartunian]

No it doesn't really matter what brand of saw you use, but it has to be sharp. End grain is tough, and attempting to start a cut with a dull saw will give you all kinds of problems. If you are using one of the premium saws, ie: adria, ln,etc. you probably are ok. If you are using one of the cheaper hardware store types, it may need to be sharpened. Ditto with an old backsaw. Again, so nobody misunderstands me, I am not saying you need an expensive, new saw to dovetail... just make sure it is sharp.

Eric

[Kieran Kammerer]

Thanks Mark and Eric. I fortunately own a nice sharp LN dovetail saw. I have been doing exactly what Mark suggested and will continue to push on in my neander efforts. Thanks again. Kieran

[David DeCristoforo]

It is also very helpful to make a deep knife score instead of a pencil line. Then a fine blade will "register" in the score line. After you get the "hang of it" you may find this to be an unnecessary step.

YM

[David Tiell]

Kieran,
Thanks for asking this question. I JUST came up from the basement from cutting some dovetails with every intention of asking the handsaw gurus here how they get a cut started. I've also got that beauty of an LN dovetail saw. It's very sharp and cuts nicely once started, but I was having trouble getting the cut started. I should note that I've always used a Japanese style saw, so this was new to me. I was starting by pulling the saw back along the cut line, but getting it cutting on the push stroke took a bit on each cut. So, anybody got any tricks?

Thanks,

Dave

[Pam Niedermayer]

...I should note that I've always used a Japanese style saw, so this was new to me. I was starting by pulling the saw back along the cut line, but getting it cutting on the push stroke took a bit on each cut. So, anybody got any tricks?

None but the obvious. :)

Pam

[gary Zimmel]

One thing that helps me is taking some of the weight of the saw off the wood as it gets started.

I to try to be relaxed and use my thumb as a guide.

And lastly lots of practice.

[Steve Hamlin]

As Gary said, keep it relaxed.

One of the things that got me me able to start on the fore stroke (i.e. gave me better control) was Rob Cosman's DVDs (he shows starting to cut a notch just by skimming the saw across the surface of the wood - great practice.)

The other was getting one of MikeW's Kenyon DT saws. This has a delicate handle with very curved horns - which prevented me gripping the handle too firmly and meant I had to keep everything in line.

If you're used to Japanese/Gent's saw broomstick handles, I'll describe how I hold (any) western saw (not to to teach egg sucking, just might be helpful)

Form a relaxed fist with your fingers loosely curled.
Now point straight out with your index - your finger, wrist and arm will be in a straight line - this is what you want.
Bring your thumb up so its pointing in the same direction.
Just this finger's knuckle and thumb joint will be gripping the saw, with everything in a straight line from elbow to saw tip - some describe the pressure as the same you'd use to hold a baby's hand.
The rest of your fingers are just gently curled around the handle - all they do is give feedback on saw angle and pull back. (I described them as half a dead octopus a while back - exageration, but you get the idea)

Now with the saw resting on the wood, just slightly lift your saw arm from the elbow, until you get a feel for the saw's weight and gradually lower your arm while 'air sawing' until you just gently graze the surface of the wood, swinging back and forth from your shoulder.

The really light grip helps feel the balance of the saw, making it much easier to stay true and on line, and (importantly) harder to kink the blade of your tool. For DTs, you don't need much power, and starting with a feather light cut, butted up against finger (and thumb) makes the cut much easier to start to the line.

I'm far from expert, but this is one area where I am very happy with my level of control, I think because I went to this extreme (I use the same grip and technique on a 28" 4 1/2 point rip saw.)

Cheers
Steve

[Terry Beadle]

When you just start the cut and the saw is against your thumb, be sure to angle the cutting edge up from the flat plane of the surface. Tom Law shows in his saw sharpening video the angle that best for a rip versus a cross cut saw. Just another tip.

[Dan Evans]

check out the new issue of Woodworking Magazine. Chris Schwarz has a couple of articles on handsawing and types of handsaws. he reviews the English system of 3 cloasses of saw cuts which outlines the procedures. Dovetails fall under class 2 where accuaracy is top prioity while appearance is secondary. A tenon shoulder cut would be a class 1 where appearance is top priority and accuracy is secondary.

Both class 1 and 2 use a knife cut to define the edge of the cut and a chisel is used to cut a small grove in class 1 or just a divit in class 2 to the waste side of the cut. It may seem like a lot of time but it acctually helps sart the cut in the exact place the saw cut should be: on the waste side of the knife cut.

class three is breaking down the stock which most of us do with table saw and chop saw. Chris also told us in a hand sawing class that the sawyers were the most skilled in old joiners shops. i believe it.

Dan Evans

[Mark Singer]

One thing that helps me is taking some of the weight of the saw off the wood as it gets started.

I to try to be relaxed and use my thumb as a guide.

And lastly lots of practice.
That is great advice!

[Kieran Kammerer]

Thanks again to everyone who has responded. I am currently in the process of making a bed and am attempting to do most of the joinery by hand. As has been true for the vast majority of things in my life, knowledge and perseverance are two key ingredients to success.

Mark and others, keep up the beautiful and always inspirational work.

Kieran