raised panels on a shaper

[Denny Wayman]

hello all

does anyone here do any panel raising on a shaper with the cutterhead above the workpiece without the aid of a power feeder?

i have a cmt insert tooling cabinet knife set and it looks like it is intended for the knives to be above the panel. now before i go and send a panel flying across my shop i thought i might see if anyone here could lend their expertise and help..

thanks

[Steve Dewey]

Can you flip the cutter over & run in reverse?

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

as an aside:
Do the ends first.

[Ron Williams]

I cut panels with the cutter on top. the most important safety feature is to make a 1 pc fence for the cutter to past through which will allow the panel to register against the fence at all times. always start your cuts across the end of a panel then cut progressively around the panel

[Jim Becker]

I'd also suggest you configure or make a guard that both covers the cutter head as well as works as a hold down to keep the panel flat on the table.

[David DeCristoforo]

Many will say yes. But it's not the safest way. If the panel "lifts" at all... well a kickback on a TS is nothing compared to one on a shaper running a panel raiser! At the very least, the panel gets thrashed. Most shapers are reversible for exactly this reason. One thing to keep in mind is that if you do run the shaper "in reverse" and esp. if you are running a big cutter, you really gotta honk down on the nut because it can come loose pretty easily. Oh and one other thing... you really need a shroud or guard of some kind if the cutter is above the stock! Danger, Will Robinson!

YM

[Brad Shipton]

At a minimum you need something along the lines of the Aigner hold downs, but those will set you back half the cost of a feeder. I wasnt too sure how much I would use the power feeder before I bought one and now I cant imagine not having it. Very handy for larger runs of anything on the jointer/shaper or the table saw.

[Joe Jensen]

I have used a shaper a lot for panel raising. I have used a Freeborn cutter set that includes a back cutter, but I only use it with a power feeder. Is the cutter diameter small enough that you can run it from underneath? Every shaper I've used could reverse. Without a feeder I'd definitely run underneath. Or, if you are like me, I'd use this as the excuse to buy a feeder. The cut quality with a feeder is SOOOO much better. Imagine perfect rail and style stock that needs ZERO sanding. Raised panels with ZERO dips or divots.

Cheers....joe

[David DeCristoforo]

"Is the cutter diameter small enough that you can run it from underneath?"

If not it's easy enough to add a temporary "sub-table" of 3/4" MDF or Melamine with a hole in the middle. Then you can "submerge" the cutter into that (one of the many things I have drilled and tapped my shaper top for).

YM

[Richard McComas]

Personally I would not run raised panels beneath the cutter head. As other have said turn the cutter over and reverse the motor direction. Also make auxiliary table top with a one piece fence, this is by far a more safer way to raise panels with out a feeder. That being said, the best addition to your shaper would be to get a power feeder.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o159/rmccomas0043/shapertable.jpg

[David DeCristoforo]

That's what I'm talkin' about....

YM

[Paul Simmel]

Yoshi and Richard are correct. If you run the cutter above the panel, even with a feeder, you don't get the downward pressure where you need it; namely, right over the cut.

You can cut perfect panels w/out a feeder, however, if you run the panel over the cutter. Raising panels on a shaper in this way is one of the safest cutting operations you can do on a shaper, BTW.

[Karl Brogger]

Does the cutter use a bearing? You can make the cut in two passes. Use something to hold the panel out a bit, then come back and make a final cut. You can even do it in three stages. While time consuming its better than not being able to count to ten anymore.

I hate doing anything on a shaper by hand. To me it is by far the scariest tool in a wood shop. Huge cutters are alot scarier than a blade any day. I told the kid who works for me that if he were to slip and get a hand sucked into the backside of one of our larger cutters it would look like a tomato in a industrial blender. :eek:

[Alex Shanku]

Check out this month's Fine Woodworking for an article on what you are asking about.

[Joe Chritz]

"Is the cutter diameter small enough that you can run it from underneath?"

If not it's easy enough to add a temporary "sub-table" of 3/4" MDF or Melamine with a hole in the middle. Then you can "submerge" the cutter into that (one of the many things I have drilled and tapped my shaper top for).

YM

This is what I do for raised panels. I added some wooden rails on the edges of the table and attach a MDF panel 3/4" thick to the top. The bit won't fit otherwise. It works very well.

I have heard it is possible to run the cutter on top but it looks very scary to me.

Joe

[tom cooper]

Cutter on top is by far the safest setup. You should not need to exert much downward pressure if your panel is properly flattened beforehand. The downward shear angle of the blades will exert the necessary downward force on the panel when the panel is underneath. Your job is to push forward and against the fence and of course with sufficient down pressure to keep control.

Reversing the rotation and flipping the cutter means you will be pushing the panel from left to right. If you are right handed, you may find this maneuver very uncomfortable.

Proper shielding, shrouding and TWO push blocks are essential. The rub collar is essential to reduce the span and the "black hole" between the two ends of the "fence". Your "fence" will probably be a 1/4" piece of plywood with a hole cutout to clear the shaft and the rub collar. Look for articles by Lonnie Byrd, his shaper advice is how I set up my operation. and as said by others, don't expect to take it all off in one pass.

The back cut operation will be separate and there you will cut with the cutter below the panel. You will use a different fence setup for this then as mentioned before.

If you someday plan to cut arched panels on the shaper, you will need heavy duty paneling sleds like Weavers or at least Woodhavens sleds. Don't try this until your are comfortable with straight cuts. Good luck.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Cutter on top is by far the safest setup...."

Man I hate to have to do this but I have to ask if this is really what you meant to say. This is exactly opposite of all "known safe practice". I'm not saying that running a cutter above the stock is "not done" and I have done it many times myself. But it is actually the most unsafe method and should be avoided if at at all possible.

"If you are right handed, you may find this maneuver very uncomfortable."

Woodworkers have to be ambidextrous.....

YM

[Rick Christopherson]

The reason why I always run a panel raiser above the workpiece is to maintain better consistency in the cut. A cutter tends to push a workpiece away from the cutter, so by having the cutter above, the workpiece cannot move downward. Before I got a power feeder, I built a large guard around the exposed cutter. Even though I now use a power feeder and climb-cut the panels, I still keep the cutter above the panel.

[David DeCristoforo]

When you are using a feeder, the shaper is a much more versatile (and safe) machine. But even then, having the cutter above the stock means that the feeder wheels cannot be in as close to the fence as you might like. I am of the opinion that "submerging" the cutter should be your "standard procedure" whenever possible. When the cutter is above the stock, you cannot be careful enough. This is one of those things that could turn into an argument and that is certainly not my intention. Nor is it my intention to tell anyone not to do something that they feel comfortable doing. It's just that an accident on a shaper is a completely different event than on any kind of saw. A saw can cut you. It can even separate parts of your body. But even then there is at least a chance of getting out in "one piece". But you get your hand mixed up in a shaper cutter, there is not going to be much hope of repair. So I am very much committed to the idea of extreme (maybe just shy of paranoid) safety practices on this machine.

YM

[Karl Brogger]

I've never worked anywhere that ran the cutter on the bottom.

A four roller feeder you can get much closer, but how close do you need to be? The cove is usually no more than an 1 1/2" in width anyway.

At one shop I worked at we had a moulder that cut the cove and backcut, plus sanded the profile in one pass. Nothing exposed and a kid still managed to loose part of a finger.:confused:

[tom cooper]

YM-
Of course I meant what I said. Most pro shops will set up this way.

Dennis-
One thing I forgot to mention is in regard to cutting narrow panels. Here is a trick that is useful (and safer) with the cutter above or below: for panels that are only going to be 4-6" wide, make a single panel wide enough to make a couple to three doors, run it through the shaper across the combined ends, then rip them to width and then run them through lengthwise.

[Leo Graywacz]

Make a box around the cutter so you can't get your hands near it. And use a [angled] feather board to hold your work down. This will keep your board on the table and will also protect you from kickback. When working in my first shop that is the way we did it for the first few years. After that we got a power feeder, it was heaven.

[Peter Quinn]

Whenever possible for raised panels I run the cutter above the panel as I find it yields more consistent results. I ALWAYS use a power feeder because it provides roughly 400# of downward pressure and cost me less than a single prosthetic finger. Seriously, if you're going to use a shaper, regardless of technique, get your self a power feeder...this is not the tool to play games with. Stop thinking router table and start thinking BUFFALO!

One point I haven't seen raised is your choice of cutters. The 40MM insert system is very flexible and the knives are a great value in a small shop. I have the Amana profile pro which uses the exact same inserts as the CMT head. The depth of cut is limited to 5/8" (the distance between the head and the tip of the knives) by the thickness of the steel. I have looked at the raised panel knives but feel they don't make a substantial enough profile to be elegant. I would advise downloading a 100% graphic of those knives, trace them on a piece of stock and decide it thats really the look you are going for.

If you are committed to raising panels handfed I would advise getting a real three wing saftey cutter configured to run below the work and using an auxilary table as shown in a previous post in conjunction with hold downs and a hood to protect you from the cutter. A zero clearance fence and possibly a sled also good ideas for narrow panels.

Good luck, and be careful with that shaper.

[Peter Quinn]

Oh yea, Its not going to be as easy to run that CMT insert panel raiser backwards in any event. You'll need that auxilary table to be close to 1 1/2" high to overcome the height of the head.

[Bobby Hatfield]

The cheap way to raise panels under the cutter is check out the Weaver hold down attatchment. Feeder is not used. Pic attached, cover is removed. Bobby

[David DeCristoforo]

"Whenever possible for raised panels I run the cutter above the panel ...I ALWAYS use a power feeder"

Well, like I said, with a feeder the shaper is a whole different animal. I think I am stuck on the OP's question which was "does anyone here do any panel raising on a shaper with the cutterhead above the workpiece without the aid of a power feeder?"

"Most pro shops" may do it this way as Tom mentions but "most pro shops" also have feeders on their shapers.... For me, the shaper without a feeder is an incomplete machine. And without one, the rules are different.

YM

[Rick Christopherson]

But even then, having the cutter above the stock means that the feeder wheels cannot be in as close to the fence as you might like. It doesn't matter if the cutter is above or below, you don't put the wheels over the cutter with a panel raiser. If you do, you'll probably only do it once. :eek:

It really makes a mess of a panel when the power feeder tilts the panel down into the cutter. You don't want the wheels pressing down on a part of the panel that is not supported.

[J.R. Rutter]

Yes, I have raised panels by hand with the cutter above the table. I have auxiliary fences (like Ron mentioned) with a continuous strip of aluminum along the bottom to keep the panel from diving into the cutter.

BUT, for years now, I have used only a power feeder with the same cutter and fence arrangement. I agree completely that a feeder is a requirement for safe and consistent work using large cutters like panel raisers. There is no way that I would let an employee do this freehand. The Weaver hold-down would be considered a guard, but I still don't think that it is as safe as a feeder.

Every raised panel cutter that I have seen has shear angle that would lift the panel, not force it down when used above the table. True, you can counteract that with hand pressure, but all it takes is some case hardened wood, knot, etc. to make things get interesting quickly.

[Paul Simmel]

It doesn't matter if the cutter is above or below, you don't put the wheels over the cutter with a panel raiser. If you do, you'll probably only do it once. :eek:

It really makes a mess of a panel when the power feeder tilts the panel down into the cutter. You don't want the wheels pressing down on a part of the panel that is not supported.

To properly position the feeder, it will be skewed on an angle toward the fence, and the closest roller can be pretty much on top of the cutter while the others hold the panel flat to the rest of the table.

I missed in the OP that the cutter was a CMT, which is thick and has knives. But I did not miss that he was considering the possibility of NOT using a feeder, with the cutters above the panel.

Also, it is correct that by running the cutters above the panel, ***with a feeder***, the cut is more dimensionally accurate. However, that dimensional accuracy is much less an important factor than say the styles or rails.

I use a feeder, yet I still try to avoid a setup in which the cutter is above the piece, or trapped between the cutter and the fence. This isn't always possible depending on the operation, though.

In any event, I can testify that *withhout* a feeder, it is very safe and accurate to cut the panels from below, especially with a "feather board" directly over the cutter.

[Denny Wayman]

thanks for all of the informative replies. a 1/4 hp power feeder is next on my list but i just haven't pulled the trigger yet. think i might just hold off and stick with my flat panels until the feeder arrives.

[David DeCristoforo]

It doesn't matter if the cutter is above or below, you don't put the wheels over the cutter with a panel raiser. If you do, you'll probably only do it once. :eek:

It really makes a mess of a panel when the power feeder tilts the panel down into the cutter. You don't want the wheels pressing down on a part of the panel that is not supported.

No argument there! When running panels I like to get the "inside edge" of the feed rollers as close as possible to the "edge" of the shaped portion of the panel. This provides maximum "flattening power" where it's needed most (regardless of the cutter orientation). It would be "safe" to say (I hope...) that if your panels are not "pretty flat" to begin with, your first problem has nothing to do with the shaper!

Anyway, to the OP... go for the feeder ASAP. And if possible, try to spring for a "full sized" feeder. The small feeders will be underpowered for "heavy" shaping, a category that (at least in my book) includes cutting raised panels.

YM