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Adam Cavaliere
03-12-2008, 3:45 PM
I have a pretty good 12 Gal (5 HP) Shop Vac that I am using for my saw dust collection right now. I am using 3" tubing around the shop with reducers on the 4" devices and a 2 1/2 to 3" on the shop vac itself, but right now only have it hooked up to one tool at a time.

I am considering hooking it up to 3 different devices at the same time, but am worried about the loss of vacuum power. The three devices I want to hook it up to are: Table Saw, 6" Jointer & Miter Saw.

I want to do a Y connection from the Shop vac to the miter saw as it is really close to it and then the other tube Y that and have 2 4-foot connections coming off of that for the Table Saw and Jointer.

Will this work OK in any of your experiences? Is there anything I should consider aside from purchasing a new / different vacuum?

Thanks!

Jim Becker
03-12-2008, 4:10 PM
Adam, a shop vac was never intended to "power" a duct setup like that. They are fine for extraction from small tools, especially hand-held electrics with small ports, but don't offer what you need for dust collection from larger tools. Vacs work on the principle of high static pressure ("suction") and low CFM. (air volume movement) Dust collection depends upon moving a lot of air at low static pressure...the moving air in turn moves the dust and chips. My suggestion would be to stick with what you have temporarily and put in a true dust collection system as soon as practical. And don't forget to wear personal protection, too.

Tom Hargrove
03-12-2008, 4:11 PM
Adam -

I doubt that a shop vac will have enough power to do what you describe. Most shop vacs work by pulling a relatively small amount of air/debris though the system at high velocity. When you hook them up in a system of ducts/tubes, they loose efficiency very quickly, and will drop debris in the ducts. This will clog the system which further lowers the velocity which will increase the blockage and so on.

Dust collectors work by moving relatively large volumes of air through a given duct size, but at a lower velocity, and are better suited to a system of tubes/ducts.

If you stay with a vacuum, I think you would be better off by moving you vacuum from one device to another.

Curt Harms
03-12-2008, 5:25 PM
Hi Adam

Think of the difference between a high pressure washer and a 2" water hose . One is very high pressure pretty low volume, the other is fairly low pressure, pretty high volume. Each has its uses. As Jim said, shop vacs (about 116 CFM) work great for sanders, hand saws with dust collection, routers with dust collection etc. 116 CMF isn't really enough for a 6" jointer. 400 CFM is a commonly recommended airflow for small shop stationary tools like table saw, jointer and planer. I had a 16 gal. shop vac hooked up to a 12" planer when I was starting out. Know how long it takes to fill a shop vac with a planer? Not long, couple minutes maybe then you gotta empty it which is a MESS. That didn't last long at all. A 1 h.p. dust collector then appeared. I'm currently running a 2 h.p. dust collector with 6" piping and canister filter.

How good your dust collection needs to be depends a little on where your shop is. If it's in an attached garage or basement, good dust collection is highly recommended and cheaper than a marriage counselor/divorce lawyer:eek:

HTH

Curt

harry strasil
03-13-2008, 1:06 AM
Another thing to consider is the drop in vacum when the vac filter gets dirty, filters better, but cuts volume considerably.

I just recently put in a dust collection system using a shopvac as a power source. Got a kit that has 2.5 clear tubing with the necessary, T's, Elbows, and 5 slide gates. enough in the kit to make 30 ft of system. Problem was loss of power from dirty pleated aftermarket filter. So I go one of the Clearvue Cyclone Minis for use with a shop vac. Now I get no dust in the shopvac and lots of power because of the clean filter. Not a really high volume system, but is very adequate for my small shop. FWIW

Peter Quadarella
03-13-2008, 3:52 PM
My "6.5hp" Ridgid vac seems to be doing a good job cleaning my 2HP bandsaw, with a clearvue mini cyclone setup with it. I didn't have all the connectors I needed and used duct tape in places and it's working pretty well so far. I guess that's why they call it duct tape.

Phil Thien
03-13-2008, 7:34 PM
I created a DC network using the 2-1/2" flexible hose (the harder black plastic stuff) from Rockler, along with various Y's and blast gates. The overall length of the flex hose is probably only 15-20'. I obviously use the cyclone of my own design:

http://www.cgallery.com/jpthien/index.htm (see the Thien Cyclone Lid link on that page).

For me it works great, but my table saw is a smaller model w/ a 2-1/2" port. My Inca bandsaw only has a 1-1/2" port.

My Dylos #'s seem to indicate that my dust collection works as well or better then what many guys are getting on their large cabinet saws along with big cyclones, so I'm pretty happy. It can be done. The tools just have to be designed for it.

I've included some old pics that show what I'm doing. The cyclone separator is an older (smaller) unit, I've since built a larger one cause the jointer/planer filled that smaller one too fast. I've also upgrade the Shop Vac to a Ridgid as it is quieter and has more suck.

Ken Ganshirt
03-30-2008, 12:58 PM
Hi Phil,

What kind of filter do you have in your Ridgid shop vacuum? Is it the standard, the fine, or the HEPA (eg. Cleanstream or similar)?

...ken...

Phil Thien
03-30-2008, 1:20 PM
Hi Phil,

What kind of filter do you have in your Ridgid shop vacuum? Is it the standard, the fine, or the HEPA (eg. Cleanstream or similar)?

...ken...

I have a Cleanstream, but I ripped through the filter material inadvertently and so now I'm using one of the Ridgid "fine" (I think they claim HEPA) filters.

Ken Ganshirt
03-31-2008, 2:47 PM
I have a Cleanstream, but I ripped through the filter material inadvertently and so now I'm using one of the Ridgid "fine" (I think they claim HEPA) filters.
I got rid of my Ridgid a couple of years ago, but back then the "fine" was not HEPA rated so I had to go to a Cleanstream.

I got a real run-around from Ridgid and Emerson when I tried to get some replacement parts (casters) for mine so I gave it to the local Habitat For Humanity Re-Store and got something else.

...ken...

Mike Gager
04-22-2008, 5:52 AM
i think its kind of interesting that the guys who have a shop-vac dust collection systems all say it works great and the guys who dont say it wont work at all :cool:

Randal Stevenson
04-22-2008, 9:33 AM
i think its kind of interesting that the guys who have a shop-vac dust collection systems all say it works great and the guys who dont say it wont work at all :cool:


It all depends on what the tool is designed for. Phil's BT, is designed, originally, to be used with a shop vac (as Ryobi once sold one that was like a loud Fein in design).

It also depends on things like depth of cut. The more wood you hog off, the more dust is going to be going out (suction verses volume).

Ken Ganshirt
04-22-2008, 10:56 AM
I think it also depends very much on your expectations. Someone who wants the shop to be visibly cleaner and has budget and/or space limitations will likely be very pleased with the results from good use of a good-size shop vacuum. Especially if they don't use tools that generate large quantities of chips and shavings like a thickness planer or jointer.

Add a HEPA cartridge filter and/or a fine dust bag to the shop vacuum and it can even make a decent air filter. At least it won't recirculate any of the fine dust it sucks in.

They are a bunch more useful than a dust collector for general shop cleanup and are handy for non-shop use.

I started out with a small shop vacuum. When I moved up to a larger shop vacuum I thought I would sell or give away my small one. Didn't happen. Having both was too handy. When I got my dust collector I figured I would get rid of at least one of the shop vacuums. Didn't happen. Having both is still too handy.

...ken...

Rick Hubbard
04-22-2008, 12:31 PM
I think it also depends very much on your expectations.
...ken...

That’s exactly right, Ken. Expectations (or requirements) ARE what it’s all about.

Some folks, for example, require (or think they require) their dust collectors to be running at all times AND that they should be able to walk up to any machine and simply turn it on and it will be immediately serviced by the collection system. Other folks (myself included) don’t run their DC continuously and don’t mind taking a few minutes to open up a blast gate for just one machine. People in the latter category are probably able to get by with much less powerful DC systems than people in the former group.

Then there is the matter of personal preferences: How “clean” do you want “clean” to be? People who are positively obsessive about “the harmful effects” of dust, smoke and pollen are likely to go to great lengths (and expense) to install sophisticated DC and air-filtration systems. At the opposite end of the spectrum are people whose primary objective is only to capture sawdust and wood-chips and to keep air-borne dust to a minimum. Again the former require pretty powerful and sophisticated, while the others may find the Shop-Vac solution to be perfectly acceptable.

I suspect that there is a somewhat predictable “migration path” that pertains to wood-workers. Time has a way of altering both expectations and preferences. Years ago, when I first started working with wood, a good dust control system involved an open door, window or maybe an electric fan. Some decades later, I use a single stage 1 ˝ HP DC, (using all 4” ducting, BTW) a couple of dedicated shop vacs and a VERY high volume shop-built air filtration system that runs whenever lights are on in the shop.

I guess the bottom line is that, sure, some people think ONLY one particular DC system is adequate and that others are less useful, but it really DOES all come down to individual prefernces and expectations.

Rick

Ken Ganshirt
04-22-2008, 9:42 PM
It is really nice to live in a place where people think CODE is the little numbers on their Hostess Twinkies that tells when they are no longer safe to eat.
So are you old enough to be able to write a routine in 360 or 370 assembler or PDP/8 or /11 macro assembler to decode the twinkies numbers?? ;)

...ken...

Peter Quadarella
04-22-2008, 10:01 PM
You know what, I partially take back my earlier comment. My Ridgid shopvac (with mini clearvue attached) keeps my bandsaw clean, but I am beginning to notice a definite difference in the air around the saw when I'm using it. The fines are escaping, and I can feel it in my throat and lungs if I use it too long without my respirator on.

This combined with the fact that my mini clearvue can't handle wide boards getting planed (my shopvac pulls all the chips, but the clearvue doesn't get evacuated quick enough and the shopvac ends up pulling them into itself) leads me to believe I'm going to have to get a dust collector after all at some point. I don't really have the room for one though :(.

Ken Ganshirt
04-22-2008, 11:10 PM
Peter,

You can fix the issue of the fines being recirculated by getting a better filter for your shop vacuum. I have HEPA filters (by Cleanstream) in both of mine. It makes a difference.

...ken...

Phil Thien
04-23-2008, 6:44 AM
Peter,

You can fix the issue of the fines being recirculated by getting a better filter for your shop vacuum. I have HEPA filters (by Cleanstream) in both of mine. It makes a difference.

...ken...

This is good advice. I was surprised the first time I installed a HEPA filter. Running the vac previously (to clean the floor, for instance) made my otherwise undisturbed shop smell like I had been cutting wood all day. With the HEPA filter my shop vac imparted no smells into the shop.

Phil Thien
04-23-2008, 6:46 AM
This combined with the fact that my mini clearvue can't handle wide boards getting planed (my shopvac pulls all the chips, but the clearvue doesn't get evacuated quick enough and the shopvac ends up pulling them into itself) leads me to believe I'm going to have to get a dust collector after all at some point. I don't really have the room for one though :(.

How wide? I plane boards up to about 8-1/2" with my separator design and Ridgid shop vac and have never chips make it to the vac. However, I can imagine hogging off lots of material from a 12" wide board may be a challenge.

Mike Gager
04-23-2008, 6:48 AM
i bought a hepa filter for my vac but i dont want to install it til i get a seperator built. im going to try out your design phil


on another note has anyone tried attaching their shop vac to a trash can instead of the normal shop vac bucket? seems you could get a lot larger capacity fairly easy

Jerry Pittman
04-23-2008, 6:50 AM
Adam,
In my first shop, I used a 16gallon, 6.5 HP shopvac as a dust collector. The whole shop was plumbed with 2 1/2" PVC and gate valves at each machine. Yes, it worked for the chips fairly well since all the machines were equipped with 2" dust ports. As long as I had only one gate valve open at a time, that machine was much cleaner than without any attempt at dust collection. The planer was the biggest challence due to chip size & volume; a jointer would be the same problem. I used a bag in the shop vac to prevent stuff from clogging the filter and had a homemade seperator in line for a while but gave up on that. Bags filled up pretty ofteneither way.
Basically, it go most of the sawdust but none of the dust associated with any cutting; it picked up a lot of the stuff you would have to sweep up but didn't do much for the stuff floating in the air that we breathe.
As explained above, good dust collection depends on high air volume not high suction, so a shop vac is at a handicap from th eget go.
HTH
Jerry

Ken Ganshirt
04-23-2008, 10:47 AM
Mike, there's no reason you can't use a bottom as large as you like. The only trick is to make sure you get a good seal when you put the vac on top or it won't work no matter how big or small it is. There is a fellow, Niki, in Czechoslovakia who has done exactly what you want and it works great.

...ken...

Peter Quadarella
04-23-2008, 11:40 AM
I am using a HEPA filter in my shopvac. I believe I am getting fines from the bandsaw because they are not being sucked down through the table, as opposed to output from the shopvac (which is usually at 4-8 feet away from where I am using the machine)

I was planing 8-10" hard maple when I had the issue with my clearvue. The chips were not falling down fast enough, causing them to be sucked into the shopvac when it filled up. If there is a fix to this or something I can do to alleviate it, that would be great because I really don't have room for a dust collector.

Perhaps I have too much hose between my shopvac, cleavue, and device? I'm not sure how to limit that much...

Tom Hargrove
04-23-2008, 12:21 PM
Like some of the comments above regarding expectations, I think "working fine" is a matter or perspective. At home, I have a Ridgid 3650 that I initially used with a shop vac. It has a shroud around the blade with a port for a vacuum. I was very happy with the dust collection, other than the frequency that I had to empty the vacuum. I used the same vacuum with my router table. It all "worked fine" until I machined several sheets of MDF. Even though I had two vacuums hooked up to the router table, I had talcum powder like dust everywhere.

Then I got a Delta dust collector with 4" runs, and the improvement was monumental. No dust residue, even when I machine MDF. While the planer and jointer fill the collector up faster than I want, I can't imagine how fast a vacuum would fill up. I am working on a "Phil Thien" separator to help this problem, and will soon upgrade with a filter from Wynn Environmental. The vacuum, which seems like a toy compared to the 4" system, is now devoted to clean up and small hand held tools.

At a shop where I do some volunteer work, we just finished hooking up a 3 HP Oneida system with 8" main lines, 6" branches, blah, blah, blah. It replaced a 6" portable Delta system. The Oneida sucks up everything, even the dust from the chop saw (we built a hood). The ambient air in the shop is cleaned while the system runs, so we don't need the air cleaner anymore. It makes my 4" system at home seem like a toy.

So it is all a matter of perspective. I have worked with different levels of dust collection. A shop vac based system will certainly work with some machines, and is better than a broom and a dustpan. Budget is always a concern, and when I could afford nothing else, it was my best alternative. However, I don't think anyone who has worked with a true dust collection system would willingly revert back to a vacuum based system.

Just my .02

Mike Gager
04-29-2008, 11:33 PM
i got my phil thien inspired seperator up and running tonight and it works awesome. i havent swapped out the filters yet but will do so tomorrow


im using a metal trash can for the seperator and when i stick my hand over the end of the hose the can sides crinkle in :D