Finishing a hand planed table top

[Kieran Kammerer]

I have several practical and some possibly theoretical questions.

I am in the process of completing a hand planed curly maple top. It has been all hand dimensioned and will have the final smoothing done with a 4 1/2 smoothing plane set to take a very fine shaving. I will then be applying seral coats of a water based aniline dye (JE Mosers). The first question is, should the grain be raised prior to applying the dye or just lightly sand afterwards? The "recipe" I am using says to apply the first coat, let dry, sand with 400 grit, apply second coat,let dry and then sand 30% of the highlight with 220 grit paper. When they refer to the highlights, do you think they mean the ares with striping?

The more possibly theoretical question I have is, what grit of sandpaper would one consider going "backwards" from a top that has been handplaned (i.e. at what point by sanding do you loose the clarity I was trying to obtain by planing in the first place)

I hope some of this makes sense and I appreciate any and all input, comments, suggestions.

[Donnie Raines]

It is advised to , when useing a water bade dye, to raise the grain prior to applying the first wash coat. Once you have applied the first coat and it has dried, I use 220(verrrryyyyy lightly) to rub doen the lumber, being really easy on all the corners. Once this is accomplished I apply one more thin coat(thin as in i dont flood the surface like on the first coat) and then let that sit about 20 mintues...wipe off all the excess. Allow this to dry overnight. I use scothbrite pads to scuff all the fuzzies.

I do not sand beyond the 220 used after the first coat. What finish are you going to use?

I like to apply a liberal coat of boiled linseed oil over top the dye...let that sit a good half hour or so...then wipe down all the excess. Let this baby dry for about a week9if you can still smell the oil..it has not cured). I then spray lacquer or shellac...depending on what it is i am trying to accomplish. I also like to use Pratt and Lamert #38 varnish on figure lumber. It comes "as is" as a brushing varnish...I mix it 75% varnish to 25% mineral spirits to make a nice thick wipeing varnish. Work it in small areas..it dries quickly(not as fast as Bulls Eye shellac) but quick.

I hope this helps some...


DonnieR

[Kieran Kammerer]

Donnie,

Thanks for the input. Just some clarification. After you have raised the grain, do you then sand or just go ahead and put your first coat of water based dye on?

I am following a "recipe" i found to duplicate an old, antique look. It recommends using two coats of one dye, snading 30% of the surgace with 220 and then following up with a lighter dye on those areas.

I am still undecided about how to finish the top. It will be a kitchen table. I have thought about BLO followed by brushed on varnish. Do you think this will bring out the figure and be durable enough.

Thanks for any additional suggestions/help.

[Alan Turner]

Yes, first raise the grain with water, and then sand it back by hand with 220 or 320. I would use distilled water because there can be some minerals (iron) that will react with the maple and leave spots. You may find that after you raise the grain, and sand it back, that you do not need to sand after the first coat of water based dye. Boiled Linseed Oil, very dry, followed by varnish, is a good choice for a kitchen table. What I do is after the oil is completely dry, I use a coat of dewaxed shellac or two, and don't sand at all after the dye until ther are 2 coats of shellac on. I find that if I sand after the dye, the color can be uneven. With the varnish on top, it will be quite durable.

[Donnie Raines]

I was taught to apply the first coat WITHOUT sanding down the grain. Sand after the first coat has dried.

I have used varnish on a table for my parents(the table everyone sits at for the holidays) and it has held up just fine...no issues what so ever.

I have not used the exact formula that you are describing...but I think incorpartaing the ideas I shared will lead you in the right direction. As always, try this on scraps and see what you think.

DonnieR

[Kieran Kammerer]

Yes, first raise the grain with water, and then sand it back by hand with 220 or 320. I would use distilled water because there can be some minerals (iron) that will react with the maple and leave spots. You may find that after you raise the grain, and sand it back, that you do not need to sand after the first coat of water based dye. Boiled Linseed Oil, very dry, followed by varnish, is a good choice for a kitchen table. What I do is after the oil is completely dry, I use a coat of dewaxed shellac or two, and don't sand at all after the dye until ther are 2 coats of shellac on. I find that if I sand after the dye, the color can be uneven. With the varnish on top, it will be quite durable.

Alan,

Thanks for the input.

This is probably a stupid question (but I am just learning about the finer subtilties of finishing), what does the shellac add in addition to the varnish? and vice/versa. I have read doing the way you suggested in other places.

Kieran

[Jim Becker]

what does the shellac add in addition to the varnish?

In this particular situation, the thin shellac acts to stablize the color so when you sand, you're only taking off any remaining "fuzzies" from the second grain raising (from the WB dye), rather than digging into the color. Even with the dye, the color doesn't go very deep!

Also, when you do your initial knock down from raising the grain, only sand very lightly...just enough to remove the fuzzies. If you sand too much, you'll end up raising the grain again...a lot...when you apply your WB dye. The initial grain raising is also best done with distilled water, rather than tap water. That insures you don't have any minerals and the like left behind when it dries. That said...most folks just use tap water anyway! :rolleyes:

[Alan Turner]

Shellac dries in about 10 or so minutes, so you can do 2 coats quickly. It hand sands quite nicely, without pilling up on the paper. It is a wonderful sealer. If it is dewaxed, almost anything will go over it with good adhesion. It will speed your process becuase of the drying time. You can either brush it, or pad it. I spray it, but padding is fine. The first coat is easy, but the 2d coat is tougher since it melts the first coat. You need to have the pendelum stroke as you cannot go over the first coat more than once quickly without taking it off. These are thin coats I am talking aobut. If I am only going to do 2 coats, as a sealer, I do not bother to spray. I can do 2 coats in about 1/2 hor or so. Then sand the next morning, and coat with varnish. Because it dries so quickly, dust nibs are not much of a problem. I mix my own, which is really quite easy, and the fresher the better.
Alan

[Kieran Kammerer]

Shellac dries in about 10 or so minutes, so you can do 2 coats quickly. It hand sands quite nicely, without pilling up on the paper. It is a wonderful sealer. If it is dewaxed, almost anything will go over it with good adhesion. It will speed your process becuase of the drying time. You can either brush it, or pad it. I spray it, but padding is fine. The first coat is easy, but the 2d coat is tougher since it melts the first coat. You need to have the pendelum stroke as you cannot go over the first coat more than once quickly without taking it off. These are thin coats I am talking aobut. If I am only going to do 2 coats, as a sealer, I do not bother to spray. I can do 2 coats in about 1/2 hor or so. Then sand the next morning, and coat with varnish. Because it dries so quickly, dust nibs are not much of a problem. I mix my own, which is really quite easy, and the fresher the better.
Alan

Thanks for everyone's input. Any suggestions on brand of varnish. I do have some 2.5 lb shellac I mixed up a few months ago. I think that will still be fresh enough.

Kieran

[Michael Cody]

Thanks for everyone's input. Any suggestions on brand of varnish. I do have some 2.5 lb shellac I mixed up a few months ago. I think that will still be fresh enough.

Kieran


<center> **** MIX A FRESH BATCH ****</center><hr>Shellac has 30-60 day max shelf life and you put way to much work in to save 5$ by trying to use old shellac.. mix it up fresh @ about a 1.5lb cut for sealing (IMNSHO) ... I also wouldn't finish with anything but an oil based varnish like Behlen's Rock Hard -- it makes a much nicer antique finish. Personally I would probably use a built up 30-40 coat shellac finish but that is just me. Shellac is not that fragile. Remember there were millions of shellac finished kitchen items before they found oil varnishes and poly .. it's repairable also w/o hardly any prep and provides a deeper looking finish (once again IMNSHO) than any other finish I know.

Check out this link for a good review of Behlen's .. I agree with this gent mostly for what it's worth.

[Kieran Kammerer]

<center> **** MIX A FRESH BATCH ****</center><hr>Shellac has 30-60 day max shelf life and you put way to much work in to save 5$ by trying to use old shellac.. mix it up fresh @ about a 1.5lb cut for sealing (IMNSHO) ... I also wouldn't finish with anything but an oil based varnish like Behlen's Rock Hard -- it makes a much nicer antique finish. Personally I would probably use a built up 30-40 coat shellac finish but that is just me. Shellac is not that fragile. Remember there were millions of shellac finished kitchen items before they found oil varnishes and poly .. it's repairable also w/o hardly any prep and provides a deeper looking finish (once again IMNSHO) than any other finish I know.

Check out this link for a good review of Behlen's .. I agree with this gent mostly for what it's worth.


Thanks Mike. What is the link I should look at? Richland anywhere near the UP?. I spent four years in Gwinn, MI.

[Michael Cody]

Thanks Mike. What is the link I should look at? Richland anywhere near the UP?. I spent four years in Gwinn, MI.

Forgot to Post it .. sorry:

Review of Behlen's Rock Hard Varnish (http://antiquerestorers.com/Articles/SAL/tablevar.htm)

Oh BTW -- the site is awesome too.... this is just one article of dozens...

Richland is in SW Michigan 1 hour south of Grand Rapids, just northeast of Kalamazoo...

I've been in Gwinn, "I do luv da UP man!" .. used to hunt up in Kingsford with some college bud's & up on Superior near Gran Marais with my dad. Gran Marais might be the best snowmobiling in the state.