12" jointer planer jet / grizzly vs. minmax, hammer, laguna HELP!

[Steve Dewey]

Spent a couple hours yesterday searching sawmill & internet to find the answer, but am probably more confused than when I started...

Looking to upgrade to a bigger jointer (currently have a 6" Rigid which has probably been my best "value" tool purchase ever). Was thinking 8", but the local wood store Highland Hardwoods in Brentwood NH often has 10" plus widths available. It kills me to rip a board in half to get it on the jointer & then glue it back together. So considering a 12" jointer.

The prices of the combo machines have my interest piqued. Space isn't too much of a premium, but more room is alway welcome. Read the FWW review, which unfortunately didn't include the jet or grizzly machines. It's too bad you can't compare all these in the same place.

I had a Jet contractor's saw - not impressed - wouldn't stay in calibration, now have a PM2000 - which is awesome. I also have a Jet belt /disc sander - also not particularly impressed - it takes forever to remove the table to change the belt & is difficult to adjust it square to the belt. I've got a Grizzly shaper & dust collector - DC works OK for it's design (not a cyclone). The shaper fence was a joke (I've got a homebuilt incra on it now which cost me $300 to upgrade, otherwise works fine.

Enough background - here's the question What do the Hammer, Minmax & Laguna get me that the Jet or Grizzly don't? The specifications - dimensions, HP etc. are pretty similar. I realize the Hammer & Minmax have quick change blade systems - not sure about the Laguna. Jet is advertising a 5 year warranty, can't seem to find warranty info on the other tools websites. I realize Laguna has the "platinum" series which is made in Asia vs. Europe, but my PM2000 is made in Asia too.

Mostly looking for feeback on ease of use, accuracy & repeatability. I want to know that once I set the machine up, it will hold calibration. If I set the jointer for a 1/32 cut, switch to planing & back, I want to be sure that I'm back jointing at 1/32 w/o any fiddling around. Probably more important on the planer side - I want to be able to return to 3/4" easily & reliably - I typically machine similar size wood for a project at the same time, but every once in a while I have to scrap a piece & start over. Is the Wixey digital read out (DRO) compatible with these machines?

Lastly - can i upgrade to a spiral / helical cutter Shelix / Other on the euro machines?

Thanks for your feedback.

[Jim Becker]

Dewey, the Euro machines are beefier and use different methods for fence actuation, etc.

Example: I looked at the Jet J/P yesterday at Curt Harm's place. Very nice machine, especially for the money. One immediate difference I saw, however, was the way the fence is attached to the machine and adjusted. The Jet's fence is on a flat metal construction that site on the jointer bed. There are two ratchet-handle studs that are used to lock it down. On my MiniMax FS350, the fence is on a heavy round bar mount that moves smoothly back and forth with one locking knob. For the angle adjustment on the fence, the Jet again requires a two-sided approach with knobbed studs to lock...and that last little rotation can knock off the accuracy as the metal will move as you rotate the knob. On the MM, there is one lever for locking the fence angle and it stays where you put it, meaning you can have one hand on your square and lock the fence with the other at precisely 90º to the bed. The cast iron on the Jet is adequate, but less substantial than on the MM in thickness and structure.

None of this is "bad". I believe that the Jet and Grizzly machines offer a wonderful opportunity for folks to acquire a nice J/P combo for about the same cost as a quality 8" jointer and 15" planer separates. And I'm a believer in wide jointers as they add a lot of utility that is quite useful. When you step up to Hammer and then up to MiniMax and Felder, you add features, "beef" and, of course, cost.

On your question about cutter heads, some of the Euro machines have different cutter head options and folks like Byrd also make replacement cutter heads. But the results I get with the Tersa knives on my FS350 really wouldn't make me want to spend more money on a spiral/helical cutter. With the wide bed and by skewing the boards, even if it's very slight with a wide board, the Tersa head cuts cleanly even in highly figured stock.

Based on my observation of the Jet yesterday, I believe you could put a DRO on it as I did with my MiniMax machines.

Oh, the jointer cut adjustment doesn't change when you flip between jointer and planer mode and back. Completely different adjustments. Mine is set for about 1/32" and never changes.

[Steve Dewey]

Thanks Jim just the kind of feedback I'm looking for. After I posted this thread I saw your thread on the visit with Curt.

The ratchet studs & knobs are a perfect example of a design that works but requires some fiddling to get right - then you'll never get back to the same setting again (assuming no "stops" at common angles). Probably not a major concern on the jointer - I don't think I've ever changed the angle on my jointer fence & I rarely change the width (mostly because with only 6" of capacity I can't).

Anybody seen / used the Laguna Platinum??

[Mark Singer]

I have the MiniMax TechnoMax 16" J/P/Mortiser . While I don't have knowledge of the other newer machines, I can tell you this is a great machine. The Tersa head allows changing knives in 3 minutes! I just put in an older set of knives and shaved off the rough edge from bent laminations for curved chair back slats. Now I can re instal the new knives. Its a great machine . Maloof has one and says its the best machine in his shop, next to his bandsaw.

[Don Abele]

Probably more important on the planer side - I want to be able to return to 3/4" easily & reliably - I typically machine similar size wood for a project at the same time, but every once in a while I have to scrap a piece & start over.

Steve, with all the J/P combos you have to lower the planer table to switch back over to the jointer. This is so you can flip the dust shield over. Depending on the model, some take a minute, all the way up to several minutes (and lots of turns on the wheel to lower it).

Be well,

Doc

[Jamie Buxton]

I can't speak to the other machines, but on my Hammer, the handwheel which adjust the thickness planer has a dial on it which is quite accurate and repeatable. I bought it as an add-on option. I never do the plane/measure/plane/measure/plane/etc dance. I just set the dial and that's it. It is accurate and repeatable to less than .01".

[Steve Dewey]

Steve, with all the J/P combos you have to lower the planer table to switch back over to the jointer. This is so you can flip the dust shield over. Depending on the model, some take a minute, all the way up to several minutes (and lots of turns on the wheel to lower it).

Be well,

Doc

I realize that I'll be cranking away :o - I want to know if I can get back to 3/4" repeatably - Ie - is the scale accurate? - is there alot backlash in the system requiring me to approach from the same direction so it doesn't drift etc.?

[Steve Dewey]

I can't speak to the other machines, but on my Hammer, the handwheel which adjust the thickness planer has a dial on it which is quite accurate and repeatable. I bought it as an add-on option. I never do the plane/measure/plane/measure/plane/etc dance. I just set the dial and that's it. It is accurate and repeatable to less than .01".

That's what I want to hear - though I suppose a wixey DRO would accomplish the same thing...

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Steve, I just went through the same decision making process and settled on the Hammer A3-31, my comments are as follows;

Laguna Platinum Series

-jointer fence mount protudes out the back of the machine, the machine would have to be set about 12" out from the wall to use the jointer

- fit and finish weren't what I was expecting, turns out the Platinum edition is Chinese.

- the jointer tables flip towards the operator position, seemed to be in the way in my opinion

MiniMax

- I liked the MiniMax and the decision came down to the Hammer and MiniMax

- good fit/finish and function, exactly what I wanted from a European manufacturer.

- dealer located in Toronto (Where I live).

Hammer

- good fit/finish and function, end mounted fence like the jointer it's replacing had, easy knife changes

- dealer located in Toronto (where I live)


regards, Rod.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

What do the Hammer, Minmax & Laguna get me that the Jet or Grizzly don't? The specifications - dimensions, HP etc. are pretty similar. I realize the Hammer & Minmax have quick change blade systems - not sure about the Laguna. Jet is advertising a 5 year warranty, can't seem to find warranty info on the other tools websites. I realize Laguna has the "platinum" series which is made in Asia vs. Europe, but my PM2000 is made in Asia too.


The Hammer is a superb machine. The folks at Felder will send you a PDF article where (I forget it may have been Fine Woodworking) reviewed the machines together and the Hammer was on the top.

I wouldn't buy a machine from Laguna. I almost bought a TSS from them and the salesman convinced me that I should avoid them. I understand they have a good blade for resawing on the BS.

The Jet and Grizz will have cheaper bearings and thinner steel and cast iron



Mostly looking for feeback on ease of use, accuracy & repeatability. I want to know that once I set the machine up, it will hold calibration.

Easy Peasy and deadly accurate. I mean within a thousandth of an inch repeatable



If I set the jointer for a 1/32 cut, switch to planing & back, I want to be sure that I'm back jointing at 1/32 w/o any fiddling around.Yes. it is precise.


Probably more important on the planer side - I want to be able to return to 3/4" easily & reliably - I typically machine similar size wood for a project at the same time, but every once in a while I have to scrap a piece & start over.Yes absolutely. On all JP combos you have to lower the planar table (to get it out of the way) when you switch to Jointing.


Is the Wixey digital read out (DRO) compatible with these machines?Yipper skipper lots o' guys have 'em. Felder will sell you a dial that tells you where you are too. It's about $100.00


Lastly - can i upgrade to a spiral / helical cutter Shelix / Other
on the euro machines?Absolutely. Felder will send / fax you the drawing you need to get one made.


As an aside:
On all Euro machines you have to have some kind of DC. Older American Iron had provisions for ejecting the chips so they didn't get pounded back into the work as it passed under the feed rollers. Europeans simply expect that you will have DC.

I hook my shop vac to the port it's not a problem.

[Chris Padilla]

Steve, with all the J/P combos you have to lower the planer table to switch back over to the jointer. This is so you can flip the dust shield over. Depending on the model, some take a minute, all the way up to several minutes (and lots of turns on the wheel to lower it).

Be well,

Doc

No flipping of the dust shield/hood for my MM FS-41Elite! It stays on one side for both operations.

[Steve Dewey]

This is a great thread - thanks guys

For completeness a couple links to articles referenced above

The FWW article that reviews the Euro machines

http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.php?page=shop.getfile&file_id=169&product_id=78&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=26

Tom Hintz Review of Jet

http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/jetjjp12rvu.html


At this point I think the Hammer A3 31 is the lead contender - seems to offer a little more value than the Minimax. It should be noted that both Minimax & Hammer have dropped their prices a little since the intro of the Grizzly & Jet machines.

Now - just gotta present my case to the Boss. - Recent unplanned for cash inflows (refi on the house $200/month + tax refund + tax stimulus + year end bonus) should help:D. Ski trip to Utah with the "guys" - not helping...:o

Perhaps I need to drag her to the hardwood store (she does like it) and point out all the beautiful specimens that won't fit on the current jointer.:cool: Or maybe that if we spend a little money it will help the economy & thus our retirement investments will benefit.

[Chris Padilla]

The longer bed of the MM vs. Hammer would do it for me plus the Tersa knife change...so, so, so easy!!

[Don Abele]

No flipping of the dust shield/hood for my MM FS-41Elite! It stays on one side for both operations.

Chris, do you still have to lower the planer table then? And if so, why?

Thanks for the clarification.

Be well,

Doc

[Jim Becker]

I realize that I'll be cranking away :o - I want to know if I can get back to 3/4" repeatably - Ie - is the scale accurate? - is there alot backlash in the system requiring me to approach from the same direction so it doesn't drift etc.?

Raising/lowering the planer table in my experience is no more than a half a minute or so...I can do the complete changeover on mine in about a minute and a half tops. As to repeatability on the planer thickness setting, you develop a "feel" for your scale. And even with a DRO, there will still always be an insignificant variability due to the granularity of the reading. I've never had an issue with thickness when going back for "one more board" when I forget something, at least with my machine. I don't know how well the value priced machines are setup for that; hopefully well.

[Ben West]

And, of course, there's this new option from Grizzly.

http://grizzly.com/products/16-Jointer-Planer/G0660X

Haven't heard anything about it, but looks interesting.

[Jim Becker]

Ben, nice find...and it looks like it has a Tersa-like cutter head, too, at least from the reversablity standpoint. (There is no indication if centrifugal gibs are used or if they lock in with screws) The only thing I see as a little strange on that 16" machine is the method for fence attachment.

[Curt Harms]

I realize that I'll be cranking away :o - I want to know if I can get back to 3/4" repeatably - Ie - is the scale accurate? - is there alot backlash in the system requiring me to approach from the same direction so it doesn't drift etc.?
I have the Jet J/P. The scale on the planer bed is solid and there is another scale on the planer bed elevation wheel so between them I guess You could get good repeatability. The planer bed has to be lowered about 6 1/8" to 6 1/4" in order to flip the dust hood so a 6" digital read out may not work. This needs an 8" capacity digital read out.

HTH

Curt

[Matthew Dworman]

Hi Steve,
I think ultimately, these machines will all accomplish the same thing, the major differences as stated above are fit and finish, and ease of use. I have an older Minimax J/P combo in my shop in Worcester, MA, and a newer Felder in my home shop near Exeter, NH. Please feel free to send me a PM if you want to swing by and check out either machine. The MiniMax is a great machine. I am not so crazy about the fence, the guard, or the very poor dust collection, but the machine cuts well and changes over quickly from one operation to the other. On the MiniMax, the planer bed only needs to be lowered to 3" to convert back to jointing, whereas on my Felder and on most other combos, the bed must be lowered to about 7.5" - this only involves an extra 20 or so seconds of cranking, but it can be annoying if you need to go back and forth several times from one operation to the other. The Felder machine has the "Euro" style jointer guard, which although seemed strange at first, I now find much easier and safer to use than the "Porkchop" style guard. The fence is great as well and can be removed very quickly and easily if need be, but it does not need to be removed to convert to planing, unlike many other combos. The felder also allows you to add on auxiliary tables to lengthen the jointer tables when needed. This is very quick and simple to do and effectively allows me to double the length of the tables when jointing very long boards. The planer also allows for the addition of extensions for the outfeed. The Felder is super accurate and creates a flawless surface. I highly recommend it. I purchased mine second hand at a significant savings over a new one, but it was still very expensive. Although I am not a full-time furniture maker, I do sell several pieces a year on commission, and for me the benefits of the Felder outweighed the cost, and the machine has certainly paid for itself.
Again, if you want to check out either machine, feel free to PM me to come by and take a look.
Best regards,
Matthew

[Matthew Dworman]

I also forgot to mention - both machines have disposable quick change blades - not as quick as the tersa system, but it only takes >10 minutes to change out all the blades on either machine which is quick enough for me...
Matthew

[Jim Becker]

Matthew, I have a bridge guard on my MM FS350...and would never use a "pork chop" guard again on anything close to that width. And I love the bridge guard...so comfortable to me when I'm face jointing after a few minutes of learning curve on the first day.

[John Hain]

Ben, nice find...and it looks like it has a Tersa-like cutter head, too, at least from the reversablity standpoint. (There is no indication if centrifugal gibs are used or if they lock in with screws) The only thing I see as a little strange on that 16" machine is the method for fence attachment.

I agree, that is a unique fence system, Jim. I'm surprised they didn't integrate a mortiser as well.

Overall, it's a beast. They certainly are going to sell some units.

[Steve Dewey]

Spoke to Felder today - Current Pricing on Hammer A3 31 is $3,000 plus shipping ($380 to Mass - seems high but diesel is $4 a gallon). They are expecting a price increase ~10% April 1st due to high Euro. Sales rep is going to try to pair me up with someone in the area that has said machine.

Now - what's the over/under on days (weeks?) in the doghouse for bringing home such a nice piece of machinery w/o first consulting the CFO??? Actually not sure I've got the bravado to spend 4 figures w/o authorization.:o

[Steve Dewey]

Matthew - just saw your post - thanks for the feedback & the invite. As I mentioned above, I'm hoping to check out the exact model.

[Niels J. Larsen]

FWIW I also own the Hammer A3 31 and I'm very happy with it. I also have the "digital gauge" which really is an analog readout, but it is *very* accurate once you calibrate it and 100% reliable and repeatable.
I assume you could achieve the same with the Wixey but haven't tried it, so don't take my word for it :-)

Other benefits (for me) are the add-on table extensions which will work for infeed and outfeed tables on the jointer and outfeed for the planer.
Oh, the knife change is *very* easy and quick and the knifes are sharp on both sides so you get double mileage for the money of a knife exchange.

I bought mine with the optional 5.5HP motor, but I doubt I really need it. I haven't heard it struggle with any of the stuff I've thrown at it.
Also the mobility kit is very nice and makes it easy to move around if you have the need for that.

[Stan Welborn]

Steve,
I own the A3 31. There are a few things I wish I had known prior to getting it. One, I REALLY wish I had opted for the DRO. Two, I would have also ordered the dust fitting when I got the machine.

The knives are a breeze to change, 5 min and you've got new cutters running. Looking at the video, the tersa's may be a bit faster still.

The height was too low for me and my used up back, so I constructed a platform to raise it. But I do this on nearly every machine in my shop.

The assembly manual blows, especially the fence assembly instructions, but it ain't rocket surgery and I had little trouble figuring it out.

It's a sweet machine which gets much use with nary a hiccup so far.

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/10/DSC04836-a.jpg

[Jim Becker]

Stan, the machine didn't have a dust port on it "standard"?? I'm not sure how a J/P could be used without it! Could you post a picture of how dust extraction is handled on the A3 31?

[Dick Sylvan]

I have the C3 31 and it certainly has dust collection for the J/P, so he must mean something else.

[Brad Shipton]

I believe he means the 120mm molded plastic elbow. I didnt order one with mine, but soon did once I started using mine. The dust collection is very similar to other J/P. A straight connector out the end of the cutter head cover. The pictures in the promo all show an elbow. The elbow slips on and off without any connections.

The fence does flex a little, so I added a mag switch to mine for working larger stock. The felder versions have stiffer fences.

Brad

[Rye Crane]

Steve,

I have a MiniMax FS2. It's their 520mm or 20.5" J/P and as I understand it the MiniMax, Hammer, Felder, and other Euro J/P combo's you may purchase a mortise table accessory. I don't believe you can on the Grizzly, and perhaps also the new Jet offering. Very handy for loose tennon joinery.

I have had other Euro J/P combo's and this FS2 from MiniMax is wonderful. It's simple, robust, and stable. I love it.

Rye Crane

[Stan Welborn]

I believe he means the 120mm molded plastic elbow. I didnt order one with mine, but soon did once I started using mine. The dust collection is very similar to other J/P. A straight connector out the end of the cutter head cover. The pictures in the promo all show an elbow. The elbow slips on and off without any connections.

The fence does flex a little, so I added a mag switch to mine for working larger stock. The felder versions have stiffer fences.

Brad
yep, guess I should have explained a lil better.

I agree with the flex of the fence, and use the same fix. Works great.

[Jamie Buxton]

...
I own the A3 31. There are a few things I wish I had known prior to getting it. One, I REALLY wish I had opted for the DRO. ...



Stan, I bought my A3-31 without the DRO, and upgraded later. The upgrade took just an allen wrench. My machine is the older model, but yours may well be upgradable too. You might should call Hammer to see.

[Butch Edwards]

umm...@ $4400, wouldn't these machines be a tad extreme for the not-so-professional woodworkers? they sound like fine tools, but wouldn't one have to be actually making money with it to justify the expense ?
I'm just askin'.....:confused:

[Mike Heidrick]

Scott has a FS30 for sale here in IL. I saw it last Friday and it looks like new and was bought last July. One of you boys really needs to snatch it up.

[Narayan Nayar]

I'm totally in the market for an FS350. If he's willing to ship, have him shoot me a PM.

[Todd Solomon]

umm...@ $4400, wouldn't these machines be a tad extreme for the not-so-professional woodworkers? they sound like fine tools, but wouldn't one have to be actually making money with it to justify the expense ?
I'm just askin'.....:confused:

The A3-31 is about $3,000, not $4,400. As far as justifying the cost, that's a very personal thing. It all depends on what floats your boat, and what your budget is. A friend of mine who bought a $48,000 SUV, couldn't understand why I spent so much on my Felders. The total of my $20,000 Durango, plus both of my Felders are less than his SUV alone, and the Felders will last my lifetime. He will keep his car SUV for about 4 or 5 years, then will buy another expensive vehicle. Nothing wrong with spending your money on either. I bet I get more pleasure out of my Felders than he does his expensive SUV.

Todd

[Steve Dewey]

Placed the order this morning for the Hammer A3-31 plus goodies (extension table, "digital" dial, mobile base & extra blades). Prices are going up 10% on April 1 in case anyone else is on the fence.

I hope this thing is as good as y'all say - it cost more than my cabinet saw (almost 2X):eek:

[Don Abele]

Placed the order this morning for the Hammer A3-31 plus goodies (extension table, "digital" dial, mobile base & extra blades). Prices are going up 10% on April 1 in case anyone else is on the fence.

I hope this thing is as good as y'all say - it cost more than my cabinet saw (almost 2X):eek:

Steve...LOL...I just posted a thread http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=809218#post809218 that I just ordered the A3-31 this morning as well. I'm picking mine up at the New England Wood Expo in May.

Congrats!!!

Be well,

Doc

[Steve Dewey]

Good news Don - If you need a fix earlier - send me a PM I'll put you to work... They are shipping mine in a week (I'll be on a ski trip next week) so I can meet the driver when I get back....

[Dan Clermont in Burnaby]

Was the Hammer A3-31 ever $3000??? I thought it was $3500! If it was $3000 the price just jumped to $3900 which is a 30% increase

I'd like to own one but won't be spending that kind of cash on a J/P.

Dan C

[Stan Welborn]

Last fall they ran a "Fall Promotional" and the price was $2995. I was about to go another direction at the time but the price changed my mind.

[Steven DeMars]

The A3-31 is about $3,000, not $4,400. As far as justifying the cost, that's a very personal thing. It all depends on what floats your boat, and what your budget is. A friend of mine who bought a $48,000 SUV, couldn't understand why I spent so much on my Felders. The total of my $20,000 Durango, plus both of my Felders are less than his SUV alone, and the Felders will last my lifetime. He will keep his car SUV for about 4 or 5 years, then will buy another expensive vehicle. Nothing wrong with spending your money on either. I bet I get more pleasure out of my Felders than he does his expensive SUV.

Todd

This is a pet peeve with me . . . .it never ceases to amaze me when "friends", relatives & neighbors comment on the cost of tools, toys or gadget purchases. It always seems to be the one with $40,000.00 plus SUV, the ones that just put in marble counter tops in home in a "working class" neighborhood or the idiot down the street from me raving about the great deal he just got on a $98,000.00 motor home with a 6% loan while still making payments on a $185,000.00 house. But thinks I'm crazy for spending $1,800.00 on a jointer/planer . . . . I just love it . .