How-to hand cut?

[Amy Leigh Baker]

I see lots of people suggesting to "hand-cut dovetails", especially if you only have one drawer. Here's the newbie question... How do you hand-cut them? Handsaw, chisel? Can someone just lay it out for me, please?

I am assuming you can hand cut box joints, too? I was planning on box joints.

Thanks,

Amy

[Michael Faurot]

I see lots of people suggesting to "hand-cut dovetails", especially if you only have one drawer. Here's the newbie question... How do you hand-cut them? Handsaw, chisel? Can someone just lay it out for me, please?


You'll want some type of backsaw with the teeth filed in a rip profile along with chisels to remove the waste. You'll also need some marking tools to layout the lines.

The best way to learn this is ideally to have someone show you. Next best would be to get a video and actually watch it being done.



I am assuming you can hand cut box joints, too? I was planning on box joints.
I've done just this. After learning how to do hand cut dovetails, it was relatively easy to adapt that technique for doing hand cut box joints.

[Karlan Talkington]

I had the same question a few months ago when I first tried out a dovetail joint and best thing I found was the videos at Tauntons website (home of finewoodworking)

This lead me to several discussions and debates about which to cut first, tails or pins.

I've tried my hand at them for the first time on a desk valet I made for a friend. It was my first dovetail box. I used a dovetail saw (It wasn't a pull saw but after having tried it with both, I'd recommend a pull saw) to rough cut the tails and pins (tails first). First its best to mark out the tails, saw, then chisel to the outside of your marks. This is because its easier to chisel away more to get a close fit. Chisel too much and your pins will be loose. Next use the tail section to mark out the pins. Rough saw and chisel to fit.

I was intimidated by them at first but now I've come to love them.
Practice really does make perfect as I had to go through a few scraps to get the technique down.

Good Luck!

[Brian Lindenlaub]

You will find lots of opinions on how to do hand-cut dovetails - pins first, tails first, etc. The bottom line is, find a method that works for you and stick with it, and practice, practice, practice. For me, I found Ian Kirby's book "The Complete Dovetail" very helpful. I have also found several good descriptions on line by googling "dovetail hand cut" and the like.

Brian

[gary Zimmel]

I'm with Michael to have someone show you.

Next best would be getting DVD's. I have got Rob Cosmans and he now has a book that goes with the DVD that can be kept in your shop.

I like the satisfaction on doing a project with hand cut dove tails.

[Jim Barstow]

I found the number one tool that helped was a japanese fine tooth pull saw. A western style back saw is more difficult to control and is pretty crude. Also, scribe all the lines with a sharp marking knife; pencil lines are too fuzzy.

[Travis Gauger]

If your going to do box joints, I'd do them on the router table or tablesaw. You can make a ijg real easy to do box joints that indexes your piece for you and makes them virtually bullet proof. Hand cutting dovetails is a whole different story. Your layout is the most important part of the whole process, I have dovetail squares, but any adjustable square could be used. I make most of my dovetails at 14 degrees. 9 degrees if I'm doing something real fancy and am going to have an odd spacing where I really want the dt's to jump out at you. I also use a backcut Dozuki saw. The biggest thing that I could tell you to help you out is to always leave your lines. I mark my lines out with an exacto knife so they are real crisp and clean thin lines to follow. I've seen some blade guides for sale that I heard make this real easy, but I just use my thumb to start it and then get to position within 2 or 3 back slices. Position is different for all people in my beleif. the point is to practice on some scrap and find yours. What your looking for, is a position to put your body in as your cutting that keeps the blade moving in the right angle. My position is bent at the waist with my sawwing arm tucked tight to my side. I stand offset from the piece so that my sawwing arm is straight to the cut and then I turn my head to match the cut angle also.

Your posture during the cut is critical. I'm sure there will be a bunch of people to tell you that it is not. I started to hand cut dovetails when I was a kid in the shop with grandpa. That guy could cut dovetails like nobodys business. He taught me to cut them with a piece of coffe can as our DT Square and a pruning saw of grandma's. It was all in the posture.

I would start searching youtube or some video sites to get a video of someone doing it. It will help a lot to see someone else go through the task. Don't let this scare you off, they are really quite easy once you get a few under your belt. And there isn't a better sign of quality than a nice fitting DT Joint. Good luck.

[Brent Ring]

There have been a couple of issues of FWW which outline details. One is the 5 minute dovetail article, and another, older, has one on hand cutting half blind ones.

I have not tried the japanese saw method, but my first few got progressively better. I would probably not hand cut in softwood, cedar, fir, pine, IMHO, but in some of the harder woods, it works reasonably well, and there is some gratification in the ability to say "hand cut dovetails"

That all said, I am looking forward to doing production dovetails on the router table. quicker and faster.

I will do some more by hand down the road, on the right project, and with time.

Review and try out the 5 minute practice. Doing them by hand takes practice, so you will want to do that prior to a final real project. There is even a program that will layout the dovetails for you - just search for dovetail template maker. You can at least configure how you want them to lay out.

[Peter Quinn]

I took a weekend long class last fall with Mario Rodriguez at my local woodcraft on hand cut dovetails. Great experience getting hands on instruction from a master. Maybe there is a school in your area?

I'm not good enough at it to be explaining it to you and its way too much info to convey in a post. The basics involve a sharp saw capable of rip cuts, a knife for layout, a bevel gauge, a jewelers coping saw and very sharp chisels.

In the class we were taught how to prepare a dovetail saw (tooth set and angle, sharpening, proper technique) and how to sharpen a chisel. I think the saw each student was given cost $19. Once set up properly this inexpensive tool worked beautifully. While I like a japanese pull saw having the ability to prepare a western saw gives you the flexibility to adjust its set to the hardness of the specific wood you are working. Its a skill worth mastering if you are interested. Most people having trouble with a traditional dovetail saw have probably not learned to tune it properly, and when not sharp and tuned they behave very badly. Just something to consider.

Frank Claus has a very good video on hand cut dovetails which may give some pointers that can help.

The pratice part is no joke. I have been praticing occasionally now for six months and have yet to produce a dovetail I would consider good enough to include in my work. They are getting better though..I think!

[Jim Becker]

Amy, if you still have a VHS machine, PM me your mailing address. I'll send you a tape that has a video of one of the masters, Fank Klausz, showing his method for hand cut dovetails.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I'm with Michael to have someone show you.

Ha HA HA The guy who showed me was my new boss (I was the new kid) at a 5 man furniture factory where we hand made custom colonial reproductions. He did the following:

Went over to a flat belt pulley driven machine made of wood (prolly made in the 1800's). In it was chucked a 1/2" dia (or so) hand ground forstner style flat end (it was a re-ground twist drill). The drill stuck out from a fence by the thickness of the wood he was working. He didn't even check to see if it was set.

He turned it on and slammed the ends of a board into that drill bit cutting slots in the end of the board. He just sort of knew where he wanted to remove stock. He had scribed no lines.

Then he grabbed a chisel and started shaping the Dovetails (while holding the work in his hands). Did I mention that he was a beast of a man. He was HUGE.
There was a bench in front of him but he didn't use it.

He laid the finished DTs on another board and scratched lines for the cut outs for the Pins.

He took a hand saw (just some back saw that was laying on the bench) and still holding the work in his hands he sliced into the end grain making the initial cuts for the pins. He didn't go in all the way.

Then off to that nasty looking 18th century machine again with the raggedy drill bit in it where he roughed out the cut outs between the pins.

Then still holding the board in his hands he took his chisel to it and trimmed the pins and fitted the tails to the pins.

He pounded the two pieces together & handed the assembly to me and said "That's how ya do it." with a look on his face like he Fully expected that I was going to pick it up like snapping one's fingers.

Gulp.

[Lee Koepke]

Ha HA HA The guy who showed me was my new boss (I was the new kid) at a 5 man furniture factory where we hand made custom colonial reproductions. He did the following:

Went over to a flat belt pulley driven machine made of wood (prolly made in the 1800's). In it was chucked a 1/2" dia (or so) hand ground forstner style flat end (it was a re-ground twist drill). The drill stuck out from a fence by the thickness of the wood he was working. He didn't even check to see if it was set.

He turned it on and slammed the ends of a board into that drill bit cutting slots in the end of the board. He just sort of knew where he wanted to remove stock. He had scribed no lines.

Then he grabbed a chisel and started shaping the Dovetails (while holding the work in his hands). Did I mention that he was a beast of a man. He was HUGE.
There was a bench in front of him but he didn't use it.

He laid the finished DTs on another board and scratched lines for the cut outs for the Pins.

He took a hand saw (just some back saw that was laying on the bench) and still holding the work in his hands he sliced into the end grain making the initial cuts for the pins. He didn't go in all the way.

Then off to that nasty looking 18th century machine again with the raggedy drill bit in it where he roughed out the cut outs between the pins.

Then still holding the board in his hands he took his chisel to it and trimmed the pins and fitted the tails to the pins.

He pounded the two pieces together & handed the assembly to me and said "That's how ya do it." with a look on his face like he Fully expected that I was going to pick it up like snapping one's fingers.

Gulp.
Great story.:cool:

I wouldnt know WHAT to say to that...

[Pam Niedermayer]

Amy, I strongly recommend that you watch both the Frank Klausz and Jim Kingshott dvd's. Here's a brief process (please note that I freehand the tails without first laying them out, I now use Japanese saws, and I'll show a tails first approach):

1. Measure the board thickness with a marking gauge.

2. Mark around both pin and tail boards with that gauge.

3. Cut the tails by bifurcating the space available, humans are amazingly good at this. I use a small Japanese rip saw; but the sawing effort is so trivial when making dovetails that it really doesn't matter which saw you use. Only have a 28" Diston? Fine, use it.

4. Clean out the waste by either chopping with chisel or paring with chisel or by coping saw and then chiselling. I chop then pare as needed.

5. Place the two boards perpendicular to each other exactly as you'll want them assembled with the tail side on top (there are a couple of neat tricks you could use, but don't worry about that now).

6. Carefully mark the pins from the tails, being sure to mark tightly and precisely to the tails. To do this, use an awl or small marking knife (with the knife bevel against the tail side). Then mark the waste, it's amazing how confused we get when in the heat of sawing.

7. Saw the pins down to the board thickness mark. Repeat 4.

8. Fit the boards together. You're done. :)

Pam

[frank shic]

i love the frank klausz video!!!

[Dan Racette]

So, first question is do you Roll Tide, or are you a Tiger? Maybe neither?

I think everyone here has given great advice. Hand cut joints were explained to me a different way.

Hand cut was defined as hand marked with a marking knife, marking gauge or awl, anything to make a defined line.

The second step was to "hog" out the waste between the lines. What everyone here is suggesting is a handsaw. My instructor and his instructors all used the bandsaw for that part. Sometimes a drill press, or a bit and brace would be faster in some cases. Sometimes a handsaw is faster. Some would argue this is cheating.

Last step is to Pare, or use a finely tuned/sharpened chisel to make the joint perfectly fit.

The craft comes in, if you can mark it. You can cut close enough to the line, and you can gain the skill of handling a chisel well enough to pare to the line. The real craft comes in hand tuning the joint with the chisel.

Well, that's one way of looking at it anyway.

Personally, even though I was instructed that way, I have been discovering myself that it has been easier for me to use a hand saw for step two. I have been testing and looking for "my saw" that I feel most comfortable with to do that. I don't like jigs for something that is supposed to be hand cut. So, I just casually disagree with my instructor. :)

I will agree with some of the comments that getting some coaching will help a great deal. Some of the bad habits gained by not sawing straight can be corrected by someone who understands what correct form looks like. However you need to find someone comfortable to work with. The first person I worked with just kept telling me "you aren't sawing straight" The other person I worked with told me why and helped me correct my form.

Good luck.

Dan

[Joe Cunningham]

I'm a newb as well (and one of the "1 drawer? hand-cut them" posters on a recent thread) and I learned by reading the FWW article mentioned above (the half-blind one)--I ordered the back issue before I made the plunge into woodworking.

I tried both a western style push saw and a japanese pull saw, and found I did better with the japanese saw. Initially I bought 2 chisels, a 1/4" and a 3/8 and laid out my tails first. 2 tails, 3 pins, simple simon.

My initial practice ones were strong w/o glue, but had some pretty unsightly gaps, so I did a few more before I tried them on a project--a box for my chisels.

Since then I've only done 2 other projects with them, but still practiced before doing them 'for real' and each time the gaps got tighter, the DTs looked better, and I got encouraged to keep going.

This article might be worth investigating:
http://www.woodcraft.com/articles.aspx?articleid=249

I'm planning on taking a week long class with Mario Rodriguez this summer, so we'll see how much I need to learn.

[Alex Shanku]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-o4jryTkUc

Frank Klausz dovetailing a drawer.

[Lee Koepke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-o4jryTkUc

Frank Klausz dovetailing a drawer.
uh, he makes that look easy

[Alex Shanku]

LOL, i know. The part "you dont need to measure for this, just use your eye" cracks me up. I am so far from that level right now!!

[Chris Padilla]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-o4jryTkUc

Frank Klausz dovetailing a drawer.

2 minutes per drawer...not bad, not bad.... :eek:

[John Thompson]

uh, he makes that look easy

To Frank Klaus.. it is easy, Leo. I starting cutting them in 1973 with a Buck Bros. back saw and did OK I felt. But.. I went to a seminar at Highland Woodworking in Atlanta back in the early 80's that featured Frank Klaus doing the seminar on Dove-tails. I went back to another seminar latter just to see it again.

The man is "lightening fast" and basically can lay out and cut blind-folded. His father was a cabinet-maker in Europe and Frank's job as a young boy was top cut the dove-tails for drawers in the cabinet shop. He litterally cut thousand a day from what I understand as his father was somewhat demanding.

But.. without a doubt he can cut dove-tails. I have seen Ian Kirby cut them when he had a WW school about 15 miles from me in the mid 80's also. Ian can also cut them and he will take his time to be sure you understand each step. Excellent teacher.

Amy.... I cut 48 DT tails yesterday.. I chopped the waste out today and then have taken the rest of the day off. I doubt you could.. but if you want to drop by the shop (I'm on the NE side of Atlanta), I have the 48 pins to mark.. cut and remove waste tommorrow which is Wednesday.

It's about 100 miles for you "Tiger Girl" and you probably have a job.. but feel free if you want to drop by to see how to cut them.. I cut tails first and then mark pins with the already cut tails. As stated.. there is a variety of ways to do them. Most cut out waste with a coping saw.. I take it to my small BS and cut relief lines inside the hand cut outer lines.. then chop and pare out the remaining waste with a 3/8" and then 1/8" chisel.

Again as stated... a lot of ways to "skin a cat"..

Good luck War Eagle...

Sarge..

[Lee Koepke]

John, I wish I could come up again while you are cuttin dovetails. Its soemthing I really want to do myself. Looks like I am booked until late April on the weekends ... man time flies.

Me, I am just gonna grab a couple of boards one day and see how it shakes out ... if I use scrap, whats it really cost me but time...

[John Thompson]

Afternoon Leo.. you and your lovely lady are as welcome to come up for another visit anytime. I did 48 tails yesterday and have 96 pins to go (I said 48.. but I am using DT's on the front of the drawers only. The front piece will have pins on each side as I am putting book-matched false faces on the 4 already assembled drawers.

You definitely need to do some practice on them, Leo. Your first won't look like what you do latter.. so don't get discouraged. There's even tricks to how to use the paring chisel. If you don't use it correctly clearing waste.. you wil end up snipping a very defined line you have gone to the trouble to cut with the saw.

Any-hue.. just practice and it will all reveal itself with time. And the nice part is you create your own patterns that don't look machine engineered in uni-formity. And you don't have to be perfect.. A hand-cut DT should be immediately noticeable and you should be able to tell it from a machine cut without any guessing what-so-ever.

That's why it's called a 'signature joint" by craftsman for thousands of years.

Again... ya'll drop by the shop again any time.. The welcome mat is always out and I'll leave the porch lights on for ya if ya show up late. :)

Regards...

Sarge..

[David White II]

Wow. I really need to sharpen my dovetail saw. I don't think I could cut butter that fast.

[Michael Gibbons]

I'm for the Rob Cosman Videos or the Frank Klauze video. The Frank Klauze video does not show how to cut a half-blind DT though. Slightly different tecniques but they come to the same result.

[Thomas Walker]

I'll also vouch for the "5 minute dovetail" article in the current issue of fine woodworking (I think). That issue also has the Pennsylvania spice box article if you really want to be inspired.

[Michael Faurot]

I am assuming you can hand cut box joints, too? I was planning on box joints.


I was thinking about box joints and I remembered seeing a show on PBS called Anything I Can Do (http://toolgirl.magruffman.com/) hosted by Mag Ruffman. In one episode she made some hand cut box joints. From looking over the web site, you can download a free PDF (http://toolgirl.magruffman.com/downloads/pdfs/01_13.pdf) file that shows how to do it. It looks like you can also buy a copy of that episode on DVD (http://toolgirl.magruffman.com/AICD/orderdvd.htm)[1] as well.

[1]: You'll need to scroll down the page and then look for Volume 6.

[Stan Suther]

I love reading all the posts about dovetails and tools and techniques and such. I've cut quite a few so far with decent results using everying from the very cheap saws (with some tuning), old western style I've acquired and tuned, and a couple of japanese saws. They all do quite well once you get the hang of sawing technique. Still, I went to a woodworking show last weekend, and one of the goodies I brought home was a video on Tage Frid, a well known master who passed away awhile back. Among many things, he showed his method for marking and cutting dovetails. When it comes time to saw them out, he whips out his rather large rip filed BOW saw and goes at it very matter of factly. I have had one of his books for years that shows that, but it is something else to watch him do it. Just goes to show something or other. Draw your own conclusions. ;)

[Alex Berkovsky]

Amy,
There is a Rob Cosman article in the latest (April/May 2008) Woodcraft Magazine issue that you may want to pick up.

[Johnny Kleso]

Tauton makes a DVD and VHS called Tage Frid (one of the frist college teachers of WW)

It inexpensive and one of the best IMHO
He has a no nosense method for cutting blind dovetail that you wold use on the front of a drawer, I have seen many other versions and I just dont get the coping saw long deep cuts that some DVDs show..

Check eBay I think I paid $15 shipped for my DVD

Just checked its now $19 +$4 search Tage Frid DVD

[Richard Kee]

Johnny,

I am very happy to see your name on a woodworking forum again.

Richard

[Quesne Ouaques]

Hi Amy and welcome to the creek!

I know there are a couple of good DVDs out there (I do not have them), and that is one possible start. It's always nice to see woodworking techniques demonstrated for you instead of depending entirely on descriptions and photos.

I recently got started hand cutting dovetails using the articles and short videos (all free) on the Fine Woodworking website. I would suggest doing a search for "5-minute dovetail". It is a set: pdf article and short video (both with the same name) by Gary Rogowski. I think he shows a great way to practice and get used to the ins and outs of hand cutting joints.

There are lots of other articles and resources that will come up with them, but that's a good place to get started.

[Louis Rucci]

That was slick

[Pam Niedermayer]

That is not free, Quesne. You must join the forum, which is more or less expensive depending on whether you still subscribe to Fine Woodworking.

Pam

[Lee Koepke]

I have one drawer to make soon, and I am gonna try it. I know for a fact I cant do it if I never try. So ... next in the next couple of weeks, I will give it a whirl.

[Casey Gooding]

I like the Klausz video as well. Though I prefer marking out my dovetails, I generally follow his method.

Jim- I can tell you've never tried a high quality Western saw. They are a true pleasure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!