Steel City Granite TS top?

[Greg Peterson]

Any one heard anymore about this? Looking at their site I don't see any offerings for the granite top.

[Michael Pfau]

Greg my delta store here in town carries steel city as well. He has looked them over and is not impressed, told me to stay away from it. I shop is all delta, so i am really not looking at a table saw, but he says the granite top can pose problems, not sure what the problems could be without really seeing one..thats all I can share with you.

[Peter Quinn]

Am I the only one seeing the irony of a company called Steel City offering tools made of stone? I imagine a granite top would stay flat, and it would certainly not rust, but how would you tap it for a power feeder if neccessary? Will they offer it in different shades? Can they put an ogee edge on it?

[Dave Verstraete]

The weight of it would certainly be an issue. Good for some people. Not so good for others getting it down into a basement.

You would not want to drop it during setup.

I know that you can drill a hole in it and glue a threaded plug into it. They do that on a machinist's surface plate made of granite.

It is a very stable material.

[Mike McCann]

I have their granite band saw. the table is nice to work on very flat and smooth. no waxing or rust to worry about.

[Howard Acheson]

>> but how would you tap it for a power feeder if neccessary

Two choices. One is to drill it and then use a carbide tap. We did that on some countertops one time. Another choice is to drill and epoxy in a threaded insert.

[Matt Meiser]

I have their granite band saw. the table is nice to work on very flat and smooth. no waxing or rust to worry about.

Do they reinforce the top with steel or something? I'm curious because on TV (the extent of my granite experience) they always talk about how easy it would be to break counters as they install them. The bandsaw and jointer seem to have a lot of material cantilevered out unsupported and I'm wondering why that wouldn't be prone to breakage? Or are we talking about different types of granite?

[Daniel Berlin]

Do they reinforce the top with steel or something? I'm curious because on TV (the extent of my granite experience) they always talk about how easy it would be to break counters as they install them. The bandsaw and jointer seem to have a lot of material cantilevered out unsupported and I'm wondering why that wouldn't be prone to breakage? Or are we talking about different types of granite?

The counters break when they are setting them down on top of the cabinets.
There is too little support or they drop one side of an l shaped countertop down too fast, and it just snaps in half because of physics (force = mass * acceleration). Granite weighs a lot, but has a relatively low tensible strength (~300 kg/cm^2) compared to its actual weight. As such, it doesn't take a very far drop to snap it in half.

However, dropping something on *top* of it will not break it, because it's *compressive* strength is about 2700 kg/cm^2.

This is better compressive strength than most concrete mixes you will find.

As such, once granite is fixed or bonded to something, you'd have to drop the granite at full weight against something to break it, it would be unlikely to break by dropping something on the granite, unless you accidently drop a cabinet saw on your jointer top.

[Mike McCann]

On the top on the band saw it is 1 7/32 thick. No other reinforcement is necessary.

[John Thompson]

Matt.. the tops on the TS are re-enforced with stainless steel bars that have been in-corporated. The top is over an 1 1/2" thick. The black granite jointer fence I have been using for 8 months is also 1 1/2" thick. The tilt handle on top was mounted by drilling a hole an epoxing the metal base inside the hole.

The fence is dead flat.. won't rust and there has been no problems from popping it with the ends of 12'-14' 8/4 oak I often swing around the shop to get it on my SCMS for sizing.

If you use magnetic feather-boards, etc., they of course won't work. Neither will an after-market miter gauge either as the granite top's miter gauge has a 2" wide tab at the end that rides in a standard 3/4" slot. But the base of the slot is T'ed out to asscept the tab. So.. the black granite has pro's and con's therefore wouldn't fit everyone's needs. But breakage is not an issue IMO.

Michael.. you might ask your dealer that saw one and told you it could impose problems to be specific what those problems are? I have seen one also and can't idenify any problems other than what I just revealed to Matt.

Perhaps he could educate both of us as to what the additional problems are. Then again.. perhaps he is giving his personal opinion based on what he see's as something that is not traditional and cannot "pin-point" the potential problem.

I have a Delta Uni-saw and could make a blanket statement to avoid it because I was not impressed or it has potential problems. But.. that doesn't tell you why you should not purchase one or the significance of the problem.

BTW.. I am happy with the Delta X-5, but it does have a potential problem. Once the saw is off the carrier truck and permanently on the ground in your shop.. that porblem is not likely to occur unless you live in an earth-quake area. :)

Regards...

Sarge..

[Greg Peterson]

John, the Steel City Granite top TS fits my requirements. As I currently am struggling with an old Craftsman contractor TS, practically anything would be a huge upgrade.

I will not buy a replacement TS without a riving knife. While a riving knife will probably only prevent 99.99% of potential kickbacks, I'll take those odds over a splitter any day.

Besides, I could use a nice flat, horizontal reference surface in the shop. So far, the Steel City granite top TS is the front runner.

[Eric Gustafson]

If you use magnetic feather-boards, etc., they of course won't work. Neither will an after-market miter gauge either as the granite top's miter gauge has a 2" wide tab at the end that rides in a standard 3/4" slot. But the base of the slot is T'ed out to asscept the tab.

Not being able to use a magnetic feather board is a show stopper for me. But I had no idea after-market miter-gauge's are out too. That seems like a real big limitation. Can anyone show a pic of this?

[John Thompson]

Not being able to use a magnetic feather board is a show stopper for me. But I had no idea after-market miter-gauge's are out too. That seems like a real big limitation. Can anyone show a pic of this?

I don't have any availability to pictures Eric... but it's a fact that it won't accept an after-market gauge. That came straight from Scott Box's (VP of Steel City Toolworks) mouth as we spoke in my shop as he delivered and helped me install the black granite fence on my 8" jointer. I had ask him specifically about the issue.

In a latter conversation via phone.. I brought it up again and mentioned that some type of up-grade would be to their benefit. I am going to look to see if an Incra gauge would dis mount from it's own guide bar and could be retro-fitted on the SC bar?

I only rip.. cut tenons and box joints on my TS as I use a SCMS with extentions for all my cross-cutting.. so I have no need. But I am curious and will tinker a bit when they become readily available locally here in Atlanta.

Regards...

Sarge..

[Tom Henderson2]

I don't have any availability to pictures Eric... but it's a fact that it won't accept an after-market gauge.

Sarge..

If it won't handle an after-market miter gage, then I presume it won't handle a crosscut sled either... since the rails for both are the same.

Darn shame. I think SC has shot themselves in the foot.

But I'm curious... how is it that a SC bigshot pays you houscalls?

-TH

[Greg Peterson]

I stopped by a local woodworkers shop today during lunch. They carry SC and had the granite top bandsaw on the floor. The miter slot is indeed very wide. Not sure why it is this way but there it was.

I asked about availability of the granite top TS and salesman said they're available they just have to order it. It's odd that the granite top TS isn't even listed on the SC web site.

Although I haven't read anything that would be a show stopper for me I would still want to see one in the flesh before pulling the trigger.

[Todd Bin]

Are the saws with granite tops cheaper. I hope so. They do not have to age the granite so it stays flat. This is a huge manufacturing savings. I would assume the milling process is basically the same whether granite or cast iron. Oh and that is another thing -- No casting. Just cut out the big chunk of granite.

maybe I'm wrong here or maybe I just don't get it.

[John Thompson]

If it won't handle an after-market miter gage, then I presume it won't handle a crosscut sled either... since the rails for both are the same.

Darn shame. I think SC has shot themselves in the foot.

But I'm curious... how is it that a SC bigshot pays you houscalls?

-TH

You would be correct about the sled.. unless you build one and use phenolic runners on the bottom as some do. The phenolic would eliminate the adjuster tab that rides on the end of your bar that fits in the slot below. The SC miter slot are standard 3/4".. they just won't accept a standard metal tab that is on most bars,

The 2" tab distributes the weight on the granite as opposed to the small area a metal tab directs it's pressure too. You could.. I suppose take the metal tab off and use the bar without it. But the metal tab presents a potential problem with the SC slot. The slot has been heavily tested for strengh and is fine under heavy weight. Unless you pull the miter tab back all the way to the front of table (withing 2" of the front) with a lot of weight on it where it could produce a crack with a metal tab.

********

"But I'm curious... how is it that a SC bigshot pays you houscalls"? .. TH

I met the Steel City crew at a Grand Opening of Redmond & Son Machinery's new showroom. I purchased an 18" BS and did a bit of field work with it and did a review for FWW forum. I know the saw quite well.

When the Steel City Black Granite was un-veiled at the Las Vegas WW Show... my name kept popping up from consumers on the West Coast that visited the booth from what I was told. I know a lot of folks as I have been pretty heavy into WW for 36 Years and make a lot of shows and been around a few forums.

When Mr. Box got back from LV the following Tuesday morning.. he called me and ask if I would field test the new granite fence on my SC 8" jointer. I said yes and he dropped it off the next morning and helped install it on his way to sign a new distributor in Birmingham Alabama.

Any additional questions.. feel free to ask...

Sarge..

[Daniel Berlin]

Are the saws with granite tops cheaper. I hope so. They do not have to age the granite so it stays flat. This is a huge manufacturing savings. I would assume the milling process is basically the same whether granite or cast iron. Oh and that is another thing -- No casting. Just cut out the big chunk of granite.

maybe I'm wrong here or maybe I just don't get it.

I don't think you understand how difficult cutting and profiling granite is.

[John Thompson]

The granite top will run about $50 more if that still holds correct and you will also have the option of cast iron.

As Daniel stated.. two different processes as the granite is pretty much milled to flat with a computer guided laser if I remember correctly? But.. not that much more $$ to the consumer as the price of cast iron is not cheap and the length of time to go through the various stages also add to the cost. Even then there is no gaurantee of not getting a batch with stress if carbon doesn't distribute propelrly. And that is possible even with the highest degree of quality control through the various stages from ore to cast. So...

Sarge..

[Don Bullock]

...As I currently am struggling with an old Craftsman contractor TS, practically anything would be a huge upgrade.

...

I feel your pain!!!:eek:;):D


...The SC miter slot are standard 3/4".. they just won't accept a standard metal tab that is on most bars,

The 2" tab distributes the weight on the granite as opposed to the small area a metal tab directs it's pressure too. You could.. I suppose take the metal tab off and use the bar without it. But the metal tab presents a potential problem with the SC slot. The slot has been heavily tested for strengh and is fine under heavy weight. Unless you pull the miter tab back all the way to the front of table (withing 2" of the front) with a lot of weight on it where it could produce a crack with a metal tab....
Sarge..
[/LEFT]

Sarge, can a 2" tab be added on to aftermarket miter gauges?:confused:

[Barry Nelson]

Lotsa polishing cutting,etc:)

[John Thompson]

I thought I saw a message on my e-mail that Don Bulloch had ask if a 2" tab would fit on an after-market bar? When I came to the thread I do not see the post?

But.. if that did happen the answer is I don't know? But.. I never thought of it and will find out as soon as I have immediate access to the saw where I can look at the bar carefully to compare to a after-market tab. I don't have an after-market gauge.. so until I look at one I don't know if it is the same as say a Delta metal tab or not?

But... that is a good question that should be pursued IMO.

Sarge..

[Jules Dominguez]

I don't know this, but I assume the granite is subject to chipping, if for instance you were to drop a steel wrench on it. I also assume that it would be pretty easy to patch if that happened. Any thoughts on that?

[Matt Meiser]

Matt.. the tops on the TS are re-enforced with stainless steel bars that have been in-corporated. The top is over an 1 1/2" thick. The black granite jointer fence I have been using for 8 months is also 1 1/2" thick. The tilt handle on top was mounted by drilling a hole an epoxing the metal base inside the hole.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. Strength was the first thing I thought of when I saw the photos from Vegas, especially the jointer and bandsaw, and I haven't seen any in person yet to check them out. Bummer about the non-standard miter gauge, but it makes sense. Hopefully Incra and the other aftermarket manufacturers will come out with adapter kits for their miter gauges and make this a non-issue. I certainly wouldn't want to go back to a stock miter gague--not that I'm planning to buy a new TS, but I can see others being turned off by this. :)

[John Thompson]

I"m pretty set with my cabinet saw Matt.. but if I tripped over a good deal on a 5 HP 12" TS I would consider that up-grade. But you are correct in that line of thinking as most it appears go to an after-market guage and appear to prefer them over stock.

So.. let the cards fall where they may I suppose. In lieu of holding my breath to find out just where they will fall... I need to go cut some pins for the DT tails I just finished. :)

Have a good night, sir..

Sarge..

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Are the saws with granite tops cheaper. I hope so. They do not have to age the granite so it stays flat. This is a huge manufacturing savings. I would assume the milling process is basically the same whether granite or cast iron. Oh and that is another thing -- No casting. Just cut out the big chunk of granite.

maybe I'm wrong here or maybe I just don't get it.


Todd, I had an engineer at Caterpiller tell me once, that aging cast iron was hooey. He said it was an excuse used by low level manufacturers to store their "inventory" in less expensive warehouses, like the great out of doors. I have no idea if he is correct or not, but the tractors we bought from his company are spectacular, and I'm inclined to believe him.

[John Thompson]

Jules.. I just caught your post on the granite chipping. The fence on my jointer has no chips and I have rapped it a few time swinging long stock. But.. it would be much easier to drop a wrench blade on a TS top even though the blade wrench doesn't weight that much.

But.. I would be suspect of a chip even then. Suspect and curious enough that I just went down to my shop and grabbed a 13/16" wrench. I tapped the back side of my fence pretty hard with it. It was free for field testing and I still have the cast iron that came with it sitting in a corner collecting dust. So...

It did not chip.. so I tapped it real hard... it did not chip. But I would not bet my life saving that it couldn't under harsh hits. But in 36 years of fooling with this stuff.. I can't re-call every dropping something heavy on a TS top. In the conversation with Mr. Box.. he did say that it required a hard, direct hit with something simialar to a ball peen head where the weight is concentrated in the head to crack the granite in testing.

But... even with a chip.. you simply epoxy and smooth it out after it drys. I do the same thing with work-bench tops when I dent one heavily. I just apply some Bondo in that case and smooth it out. Life goes on. :)

Regards...

Sarge..

[David DeCristoforo]

"...but how would you tap it for a power feeder if neccessary..."

"Two choices. One is to drill it and then use a carbide tap. We did that on some countertops one time. Another choice is to drill and epoxy in a threaded insert."

I am not sure about this. There is a lot of upward force on the feeder base bolts when the feeder is under load. I would at least inquire of the manu. as to the wisdom of tapping or gluing them into stone. This was my first concern with the stone top, not so much because of a feeder per se but because I have drilled and tapped the tops on a lot of my machines (TS, BS, Shaper, etc.) to attach special jigs and fixtures. CI is much easier to deal with in this respect. Also, I have been known to use the top of my uni as a anvil on occasion....

No doubt about the stone top's "cool factor" though....

YM

[Bruce Benjamin]

I will not buy a replacement TS without a riving knife. While a riving knife will probably only prevent 99.99% of potential kickbacks, I'll take those odds over a splitter any day.


I'd say this is a very optimistic estimate.

Bruce

[Steve Sawyer]

on TV (the extent of my granite experience) they always talk about how easy it would be to break counters as they install them.

Something not yet mentioned in response to your question, Matt is that counter tops are only about 1/2" thick compared to about 1 1/2" thick for these machine tops. When you compare the thickness-to-length ratio of a typical countertop to that of a typical saw top or jointer fence, you can see that the likelihood of breakage is much lower than with a long, very thin countertop.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Do they reinforce the top with steel or something?

I'd submit that it wouldn't matter and that any steel that would actually support the stone would be so heavy that you might as well just have the steel.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

counter tops are only about 1/2" thick compared to about 1 1/2" thick for these machine tops.

Whaaa? Every counter top I've looked at is at least 1.25" and most are 1.5" thick.
Are you thinking granite tile maybe?

[Travis Gauger]

Todd, I had an engineer at Caterpiller tell me once, that aging cast iron was hooey. He said it was an excuse used by low level manufacturers to store their "inventory" in less expensive warehouses, like the great out of doors. I have no idea if he is correct or not, but the tractors we bought from his company are spectacular, and I'm inclined to believe him.


Steve,
I work for a company that owns a lot of foundries. I work for the iron and heavy metals division. Yes iron is heavy, no not that kind of heavy metal.;) So we pour a lot of different grades of iron. Most tools being straight grey cast iron of a lower grade. Engine components get higher grades than tools. Suspension components get higher grades than engine components. Etc.
When we go to charge a furnace we start with a base metal mix of ore, scrap, reclaim, etc to fill the furnace up. Once that is molten we take a sample and test nodularity, make up, etc through several different testing loops. Timing on this is about 5 minutes to charge up 40 tons in a high freq furnace, then another 2 minutes or so to pull and cool the sample, then about 30 seconds to get all the test results and required additions.
These test come back and tell us what other metals will need to be added to the current charge to get the end grade we are after. We then add so much molly, this much titanium, this much copper, this.....
Then when the mold is oured another sample is taken to ensure we met the grade. If we didn't meet the grade, (This is where I actually address your comment) we season. This could be through corrective heat treating, steam oxide surface treatment, annealing, etc. Another reason to season would be to have the ability to use poor grade raw materials and then make them hard from seasoning. In most aspects, we need to have customer approval to perform any type of seasoning. Once upon a time, seasoning of cast iron was necessary to create stable material. These days, we can control cool down rates, mold temps, silica contents, alloy additions etc so that seasoning isn't required. In fact, some of the iron we pour is so dimensionally stable because of the alloys introduced into it, that customers are using these parts as cast. No machining. Which is amazing from even 2 years ago. Problem is that everyone wants the cheap china iron.
As for the granite. We have granite surface plates all over here at work and I love the idea of having it on my tools. There is a reason that people resort to granite when they need precision. Think about it.

[Eric Haycraft]

And it is probably pretty close to reality - at least when the RK is installed. Ever heard of a kickback with a european machine?

[Bruce Benjamin]

And it is probably pretty close to reality - at least when the RK is installed. Ever heard of a kickback with a european machine?

So, you actually believe that a riving knife will eliminate 99.99% of the kickbacks that just using a standard splitter would allow? Good luck with that.:)

Bruce

[Steve Sawyer]

Whaaa? Every counter top I've looked at is at least 1.25" and most are 1.5" thick.
Are you thinking granite tile maybe?

You're looking at the edge. The edge has a lip the hangs down making it look thicker. The top itself is very thin. I watched a crew break THREE tops installing a neighbor's countertop because of the uneven height of the cabinets. Look at the slabs you see sitting outside the local BORG. Might be 5/8" max.

[Greg Peterson]

All things being equal, a riving knife is vastly superior to a splitter in preventing kickback. I'm not saying kickback with a riving knife isn't possible, just very unlikely when compared to a traditional splitter.

[Bruce Benjamin]

All things being equal, a riving knife is vastly superior to a splitter in preventing kickback. I'm not saying kickback with a riving knife isn't possible, just very unlikely when compared to a traditional splitter.

This is way off topic for this thread so I'll just finish with, "Whatever you say".:cool:

Bruce

[Matt Meiser]

I forgot that I have a granite sink cutout I got from a granite place which is probably 1-1/2" thick, so I've always assumed that was a standard thickness. They'd have to build up the front/side edges and the sink edges to accomplish the "normal" look. Are they putting it over s substrate?

[Greg Peterson]

[quote=Bruce Benjamin;801710]This is way off topic for this thread so I'll just finish with, "Whatever you say".:cool:

Bruce[/quote

Whoaaaa! Sorry. Didn't realize you were so sensitive about the topic. I was merely saying that a riving knife is far more effective at preventing, not eliminating, kick back. It certainly isn't the end all be all, and nothing prevents proper technique. The splitter was a half hearted attempt at addressing one of the main causes of kick back. The riving knife is an improvement on the intention, if you will.

[Walter Yamamoto]

To chime in about granite counter thickness. I went through all that after I built our kitchen cabinets and we were looking into tops. Granite tops generally come in two thicknesses - 1/2" and 1.25" (approximate as they are actually dimensioned in mm).

When 1/2" is used it is put on a substrate, usually plywood, for added structural support and lipped to cover the substrate and to give he appearance of a thicker slab.

1.25" slabs are installed with no additional substrate being necessary as long as the slab is not spanning too far a distance (although the cabinets may need additional bracing because of the weight of the slab).

1/2" slabs are generally found in west coast installations and 1.25" is almost universal in the east coast. I don't know why there is a difference between the practices.

Usually, when counter slabs break, it happens when the sink cutout is done prior to installation. Usually a metal rod is epoxied into a channel that is cut into the weakened portion of the slab, but that doesn't help if the slab is mishandled or dropped. The solid parts of the slab is very sound and can handle quite a bit of abuse even in installation.

Cheers

[Bruce Benjamin]

[quote=Bruce Benjamin;801710]This is way off topic for this thread so I'll just finish with, "Whatever you say".:cool:

Bruce[/quote

Whoaaaa! Sorry. Didn't realize you were so sensitive about the topic. I was merely saying that a riving knife is far more effective at preventing, not eliminating, kick back. It certainly isn't the end all be all, and nothing prevents proper technique. The splitter was a half hearted attempt at addressing one of the main causes of kick back. The riving knife is an improvement on the intention, if you will.


Sensitive about what?:confused: I just said that it is off topic for this thread which is about granite tables, not riving knives. I made a comment disagreeing with yours and since you don't understand/agree with my point you can think anything you want. I'll think what I want and I'm not going to try to convince you that you are wrong in this granite table top thread. Again, "Whatever you say...":)

Bruce

[Greg Peterson]

Didn't know that I was wrong. Thanks for sharing. :rolleyes:

[Walter Yamamoto]

Sorry, I got caught up in the 1/2" spec - I meant to write 3/4"...

[John Powers]

Granite on a tool that gets heavy use for what?? Precision? Please. We doing brain surgery on our BS and TS's now? This really takes the cake.

[Bruce Benjamin]

Granite on a tool that gets heavy use for what?? Precision? Please. We doing brain surgery on our BS and TS's now? This really takes the cake.

No brain surgery, just precision woodworking. Everyone has their own standards. I don't want to have to blame my tools for errors in my joinery. I only blame myself when I screw it up.:rolleyes: Is this the first time you've ever heard of wanting a dead-flat table for a bandsaw or tablesaw? This is a pretty common topic.

Bruce

[Todd Bin]

I knew when I posted that "Granite should be cheaper" comment it would stir up a lot of discussion. Come now stimpy, let's go concour the Festool threads now. AHaHaHa :D (Meant to sound really meniacle)