Breaking all the rules

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I'm so bad~!!

Filing the teeth on my first DT saw blade. Heh Heh.
YAh sure this is going to happen on the first shot.

Using a PC & Word Processor to obtain spacing for 20 points per inch on a landscape page layout with .2 margins

Times New Roman, 20 pitch, using the Pipe Symbol. It's that key just above the Enter on the right - use shift and lean on it.

Ya get easy to see lines make it so much easier. I had that PDF of various teeth pitches nice idea but I can't distinguish one from the other. AND the pipe symbols are long so you don't have to be fussy laying it on the DBBL stick tape.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Of course next time I may just sacrifice a length of 1/4-20 all thread as a guide

[Stan Suther]

Let us know how that turns out. I've also printed several tpi patterns, but have not yet been able to force myself to file all the teeth off of one of my old saws to re-tooth. I've got one that has some pitting around the teeth and is really too many tpi for speed, so I'll eventually do it. Want to go after around 15-18 tpi. Your success will give me courage to forge ahead :D

[Jim Koepke]

Let us know how that turns out. I've also printed several tpi patterns, but have not yet been able to force myself to file all the teeth off of one of my old saws to re-tooth. I've got one that has some pitting around the teeth and is really too many tpi for speed, so I'll eventually do it. Want to go after around 15-18 tpi. Your success will give me courage to forge ahead :D

My thoughts too. I have a lot of old saws hanging around. Many do not have handles. My thoughts have run this direction, but another's success may get more than just my thoughts going that way.

jim

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Well I made teeth and set 'em using the little set from Tools for Woodworking. I'm not happy with it. It cuts wood all right. Even starts easily on the rock maple I had and didn't stutter around like many saws I've tried. But, the teeth arrrgggh they are tiny little things with no gullets. I gotta make 'em deeper and the file that I got from Tools for Woodworking just won't do it.

It's a triangular file: the smallest they sell and I think it's wrong for 20 TPI teeth. The angle is too big.

As an aside each tooth took about 4 - 6 strokes. So it's not like you are slaving over the teeth for hours.

I need maybe a knife-needle or a barrette-needle such as I'd get from:
shorinternational.com
or
kassoy.com

Either that or I need to go to an 18 TPI saw 'cause the 20 is just too small and tight to manage easily.

I'm also thinking that the easiest way to get tooth spacing like I want is to get two lengths of 5/16-18 all-thread and simply use that as a guide to get the teeth started.

Using the PDF of teeth was hopeless. I'd need a $1500 pair of dentists magnifying specs just to seewhat I'm doing to use those PDFs. Rather I made the word processing document I described earlier and that was really very easy to read and follow.

A better way:
I rather suspect that lining up & clamping a length of all-thread on either side of the saw blade I'm toothing and using them as a means of forcing the file into place will give me rather good results taking at least 50% of the actual skill out of the job. If I start the teeth that way ( giving myself a good notch for each tooth gullet) I can pull the all-thread out and lay the file over at an angle getting little forward rake and finish the thing.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

My thoughts too. I have a lot of old saws hanging around. Many do not have handles. My thoughts have run this direction, but another's success may get more than just my thoughts going that way.

jim

When I was young and didn't have a sense of how much one needed to know before even getting out of bed, I used to sharpen my saws myself. I had no clue what I was doing. It was pure necessity HEY~!! the blades were dull.

I did not know that there were sharpening services and prolly couldn't have afforded them anyway. I'd hand file my table saw blades too.

I used to set my saw teeth using an old screwdriver and a claw hammer (held reverse so I hit with the handle) using the handle to get a a just right tap. I'd lay the saw on a chunk of pine and tap tap tap my way down the blade after filing it. Worked every time.

[David DeCristoforo]

"... I used to sharpen my saws myself. I had no clue what I was doing..."

In my younger days I worked as a house builder and when we were framing roofs we always had a saw file in the tool bag. We filed skill saw blades while hanging from the rafters because it was so much easier than climbing down to get a sharp blade. Of course, this was for rough framing... we were not so concerned about "precision" cuts.

YM

[Joel Moskowitz]

It's a triangular file: the smallest they sell and I think it's wrong for 20 TPI teeth. The angle is too big.


Did you get the 4" xx or the needle file? the 4"xx for a 20tpi saw won't work you need the needle file which is what we use. they are both triangular but the 4"xx has big flats which give you really shallow gullets. Also if you file with a bit of fleam you get a little more space because some of the sawdust will go up the sides of the saw.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Did you get the 4" xx or the needle file? the 4"xx for a 20tpi saw won't work you need the needle file which is what we use. they are both triangular but the 4"xx has big flats which give you really shallow gullets. Also if you file with a bit of fleam you get a little more space because some of the sawdust will go up the sides of the saw.

I got the littlest they have.
So I ordered these: Valtitan Barrette Needle File 30.102V - $18.00

Slitting Needle Files 31.602 $15.40

Barrette Needle File 31.451 $11.60

three square needle file 31.631 $8.99

From Shore.

[Joel Moskowitz]

I got the littlest they have.
So I ordered these: Valtitan Barrette Needle File 30.102V - $18.00

Slitting Needle Files 31.602 $15.40

Barrette Needle File 31.451 $11.60

three square needle file 31.631 $8.99

From Shore.

I prefer the longer needle files because you get a longer stroke but those will work fine and are a little less expensive

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I prefer the longer needle files because you get a longer stroke but those will work fine and are a little less expensive

So you know what I mean when I say that the smallest three cornered file they sold at ToolsForWoodworking.com expressly for filing saw teeth is too big to do 20 TPI.


At first I wondered if they expected you to create teeth they are directionless by holding the file's top surface co planar to the edge of the saw creating teeth that looked like:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
instead of letting the cutting edge rake forward a tad.

[Joel Moskowitz]

So you know what I mean when I say that the smallest three cornered file they sold at ToolsForWoodworking.com expressly for filing saw teeth is too big to do 20 TPI.


At first I wondered if they expected you to create teeth they are directionless by holding the file's top surface co planar to the edge of the saw creating teeth that looked like:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
instead of letting the cutting edge rake forward a tad.

I'm not sure what you are saying that's different from our website. We sharpen ALL the Gramercy dovetail saws with the exact same Swiss needle file we stock. As our website states we rate the 4"xx at up to 15ppi and the needle file for 15ppi and finer. So yes the shortest file the 4"xx we sell isn't rated (by anyone) for as fine a saw as the much longer needle file we sell. incidentally all our saws are filed with zero rake.
joel

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I'm not sure what you are saying that's different from our website.

I wasn't thinking about any information on any website. I'm just articulating my experience.

The "they" in the line "if they expected you to create [...]" is the standard inarticulate "they" who never have a name, and are responsible for all the ills of the world and everything that goes wrong. "They" are the reason I didn't win powerball. In this case it's the "they" who say to use a three cornered file when you are making dovetail saws. Them, they, those ones.
So it's not necessarily - - you or your agents.

In fact the web site doesn't represent the files as those one would necessarily use to create the teeth. The exact language from the web site is
" With a saw file, practice and a little instruction you can take any saw and turn it into a gem."
Which to me says one would use 'em to tune up or sharpen a saw, there is no reference to making the saw in the first place. I suppose some might think that one is implied in the other but, I didn't make that leap.



We sharpen ALL the Gramercy dovetail saws with the exact same Swiss needle file we stock. As our website states we rate the 4"xx at up to 15ppi and the needle file for 15ppi and finer.
Yah that's the one I got, the site says for 15ppi and finer. It was like $12.
Different people talk about length of a file in different ways. Some refer to the length of the cutting surface as opposed to the over all length but, yah it's about 7" long over all. The cutting surface is about 4".

Maybe the thing that needs to be finer is my skill at using it? I've never tried to create the teeth on a delicate little saw before. But, I was a machinist toolmaker for enough decades that I know how to finesse my hand tools. I know, it's not as good as staying at a Holiday Inn but, hey.


incidentally all our saws are filed with zero rake.
joelWell, now that's interesting. I was shooting for positive rake. Zero would work.

I'm going to resurface the blade and try again.

At any rate I purchased some other files in different patterns. I intend to see if I have more success using one (or more) of them. However, given what you told me (zero rake) I wonder if I'm making more of a production of it than I should.

Hell I have been thinking of taking a slow speed reciprocating action machine and setting the file in it and rigging it up like an old school die filer. Were I to establish a stop for the blade and feed it using a 1/4-20 threaded rod I'd get very precise spacing and depth of gullett. But, before I try building a machine to take all the skill out of it I think I'll try to develop at least a modicum of the skill necessary.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Done.
Got a 20 TPI blade done and in the handle.
Joel's information helped a lot.

It's a sweet cutting saw on it's second handle The first was angled and located wrongly ( wrong "hang"). The second is just right.



And the filing part: well I still don't have any filing skill as I cheated and built a machine to do it all for me.

[Phillip Pattee]

It takes some skill to build a machine. I would like to see it. Can you post pictures?

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

It takes some skill to build a machine. I would like to see it. Can you post pictures?


It's ugly as hell. Pics are on film and still in the camera.

It drives the file up and down using an old school rotary swinglink run by a 1960s era Dayton Worm reducer motor. (the swing arm link is an old BMW stub axle shaft)

I have the "x" (cross) motion using a length of all thread as the lead screw and a hefty 1963 computer drawer slide. The "y" axis ( in and out) is some bronze bushings on a wood frame and a 3/8-16 allthread lead screw. The whole thing is built onto a crude plywood "stand" / box thingie I made in a hurry some years ago to hold a 300 pound TV in an apartment I was using a few days a week in western rural PA while working a trial.

It works but, it's not purdy like those Lie Nelson chisels are.

[Chuck Nickerson]

I also vote for you to post machine photos. There are some saw types where I don't think anyone is offering a quality version, and I'd love to give it a whack.

[Butch Hayes]

Did you get the 4" xx or the needle file? the 4"xx for a 20tpi saw won't work you need the needle file which is what we use. they are both triangular but the 4"xx has big flats which give you really shallow gullets. Also if you file with a bit of fleam you get a little more space because some of the sawdust will go up the sides of the saw.

All triangular files are 60*, regardless of their size. Smaller files are easier to manipulate with smaller teeth, but won't give you a different gullet size at any given tpi. You don't want to use too big a file, however, since you'll end up paying for a lot of file surface that will never have been touched by the time the file becomes too dull at the corners to use.

Btw, I've not gotten the courage to try cutting teeth from scratch, so my hat's off to all who even attempt it!

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Butch,

You are correct, in that the angle is 60 degrees, but with the different brands and the different sizes, the sharpness of the corner comes into play
especially on a pitch as fine as 20 PPI, that's what Joel is referring to. And why he is recommending a needle file, so that the gullets are better shaped.

As a general rule of thumb, the length of the side of the triangle should be roughly twice the height (actually the length of the sloping side) of the teeth, that way you get to use all the file. When you swap to the next side.

Next time you get a chance, compare the corners of a large triangular file with an extra slim, or double extra slim.

Regards
Ray

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I also vote for you to post machine photos. There are some saw types where I don't think anyone is offering a quality version, and I'd love to give it a whack.


I may take the cannister to the photo place this weekend.
"May" being the operant world.

[Butch Hayes]

Hi Butch,

You are correct, in that the angle is 60 degrees, but with the different brands and the different sizes, the sharpness of the corner comes into play
especially on a pitch as fine as 20 PPI, that's what Joel is referring to. And why he is recommending a needle file, so that the gullets are better shaped.

As a general rule of thumb, the length of the side of the triangle should be roughly twice the height (actually the length of the sloping side) of the teeth, that way you get to use all the file. When you swap to the next side.

Next time you get a chance, compare the corners of a large triangular file with an extra slim, or double extra slim.

Regards
Ray
Ray, you clarified very nicely, thanks.

[lowell holmes]

Paul Sellers suggested taking a jig saw blade of the proper tooth count and clamping it to the saw you are re-filing and using it as a guide for filing the new teeth.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

All triangular files are 60*, regardless of their size. I have at least one file in my collection that is triangular but most definitely not 60 Degrees. It's got two very acute angles.

The fact of three sides is not determinative of the angles.