Frank's Wrkshop: Dust Collection Plans

[Frank Pellow]

This thread is a spin-off from the thread entitled "Frank's Workshop Construction Project" (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=7769).

I plan to purchase an Oneida 1.5 hp unit and, in some ways, I am designing my shop around it. For instance, I was inspired by the pictures that Jim Becker posted of the dust collector his closet so, this morning (over my breakfast tea) I decided to add a very small closet (2' by 3') to house the unit, barrel, and filter. Oneida says that the footprint of this unit is 2' by 2' so I trust that this closet will be big enough.

I plan to have 3 ports with the #1 port being used for the big guns (that is the table saw, the jointer, and the planer). To it I will run 6" metal pipe. I think that it will be sufficient to run 5" pipe to the other two locations.

Any advice that people can give me while I still have the time to change things would be appreciated.

[John Miliunas]

I plan to have 3 ports with the #1 port being used for the big guns (that is the table saw, the jointer, and the planner). To it I will run 6" metal pipe. I think that it will be sufficient to run 5" pipe to the other two locations.

Any advice that people can give me while I still have the time to change things would be appreciated.

Frank, I'm not a DC expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I would highly recommend keeping *all* of your runs to 6" and extend that as close as you can to *all* of your equipment. Volume is the name of the game here, and restricting yourself to 5" pipe for relatively long runs is going to drastically cut down on that volume and you're going to be taking a performance hit. As a matter of fact, if there's any way you can convert any of your machine take-offs to 6", that would even help increase performance more. I did exactly that on my TS and jointer and, the rest of the equipment, which I couldn't convert from 4" ports, have 6" runs up to within a couple feet or so of the machines. Just MHO, but I think you'd be better off with the larger diameter all the way around. :cool:

[Jim Taylor]

Sorry, I'm a bit of a newbie, and have no answers, but lots of questions...

So, I am also looking at cleaning up my act. I'm slowly bringing my 2 car garage to the point of no return, and am converting my 1.5 hp DC to 220V. Also, as part of the conversion, I will be running from a new location with new pipe.

With a 1.5 Hp DC is the wind velocity high enough to keep a 6" pipe clean? I like the closet idea, but was worried about further restricting the volume of air which the DC is moving. Will you use Louvers on the door to equalize the pressure between the main room and the DC closet?

[Jim Becker]

I would suggest you consult Oneida on your duct layout to be sure of what will work best with the particular machine you are buying. 6" duct "all the way" will work, but it may not be as efficient as 5" after the first drop for the 1.5hp system. Talk to the manufacturer.

If you are buying the 1.5hp unit, make sure you go with the external filter...you will want/need it in the long run, especially if you ever start collecting from sanders, and it adds about a 15-20% increase in CFM besides. (My experience) The external filter also includes the noise reducer ("silencer") integral to the filter.

Don't underestimate the size of your closet! You need room to be able to manuver the bin out of the space and to clean the filters. While the cyclone itself will "fit" in a 2'x2' space, that's with only a couple of inches clearance.

[Frank Pellow]

Thanks for the advise Jim.

I did talk to a guy at the Ontario distributor of Onedia on the phone and he was the one who suggested that (with 1.5 hp unit) I shoul reduce the pipe width to 5" after the first 10' of 6" pipe.

I do plan to purchase the external filter.

Jim I really don't want the closet to be any bigger than necessary. Would you think that a 3' by 2'6" internal size is enough. Not great, of course, but enough.

[Frank Pellow]

Jim, I do plan to use either vents or louvers but do not (yet) know exactly what is needed. Again, I would like advise.


Sorry, I'm a bit of a newbie, and have no answers, but lots of questions...

So, I am also looking at cleaning up my act. I'm slowly bringing my 2 car garage to the point of no return, and am converting my 1.5 hp DC to 220V. Also, as part of the conversion, I will be running from a new location with new pipe.

With a 1.5 Hp DC is the wind velocity high enough to keep a 6" pipe clean? I like the closet idea, but was worried about further restricting the volume of air which the DC is moving. Will you use Louvers on the door to equalize the pressure between the main room and the DC closet?

[Robert Ducharme]

When I installed mine, Oneida recommended 1' around the filter at least so that it can be blown with air to clean.

In venting the closet, for a 3 HP unit, I needed to have 3 sq ft of opening for the air flow. I ended up making an S baffle (framed, sound board, and insulation) out of the room so that it would reduce the noise.

[Jim Becker]

Frank, you might consider building the closet after you have the cyclone hung so you can optimize the space for convenience as well as keeping it as small as practical. Build the panels on the floor so you can finish them on the inside before assembly.

As to louvers, you can just install one in one of the closet walls. In your case, I'd suggest "away" from the wood stove! If you baffle it, you'll further reduce sound. The area of the return should be generous.

[Chris Padilla]

Frank,

In case you haven't read up, check out Bill Pentz's very long web site on DC:

http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm

I currently have the kit he and Clarke have designed although I must confess that it is still in boxes! :(

[Jim Taylor]

This is a great site. Thank you.

[Frank Pellow]

Jim, I had not thought of building the closet around the installed unit. With the minor problem of having to take down then re-install so of the duct work, that should work fine.

Chris, yes I have read quite a lot on Bill Pentz's web site. It is mostly because of what I read there that I decided to install a cyclone based system with 6" pipes at least to my major dust and debris generating equipment -the table saw, the planer, and the jointer.

I have just thought of something else that I have not seen discussed anywhere. Is it practical to vent the cyclone to the outside during the summer and to a filter during the winter?

[Jim Becker]

I have just thought of something else that I have not seen discussed anywhere. Is it practical to vent the cyclone to the outside during the summer and to a filter during the winter?

It's only practical from the standpoint that you'll be cleaning the filter less, but given the way that it attaches to the cyclone, it will be a hassle to fit things up to divert outside, rather than to the filter. I'd leave it as-is, frankly.

[Frank Pellow]

OK, I won't bother providing for exterior ventilation.

[Frank Pellow]

I just discovered the existence of a cyclone dust collector and filter that seems very competitive with the Oneida system that I was considering.

The company is called Woodsucker (I love the name). Here is a link:

http://www.woodsucker.com/index.htm

I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has had experience with the Woodsucker 2hp system or even someone without experience who has an informed opinion about it.

[Jim Becker]

I just discovered the existence of a cyclone dust collector and filter that seems very competitive with the Oneida system that I was considering.

The company is called Woodsucker (I love the name). Here is a link:

http://www.woodsucker.com/index.htm

I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has had experience with the Woodsucker 2hp system or even someone without experience who has an informed opinion about it.
Larry at Woodsucker makes a nice machine and owners generally say good things about it. I saw Jerry Todd's unit when I visited him over the holidays. It was a bit louder than my Oneida, but that's a more subjective thing...it moved a lot of air!

Two things you may want to add to your research...the December 2003 issue of WOOD Magazine has a nice spread on small-shop cyclone systems and Oneida has a good performance/testing chart at http://www.oneida-air.com/testing/comparison/comparisonchart.htm . While the latter is obviously a vendor testing against other vendors, the numbers are not out of line with WOOD's numbers in the article.

[Mike Kelly]

Frank, a closet is real nice if you have the space, but I think you may be able to do without it. I have had to rebuild my Oneida once (defective impeller) and if it was in that small of a closet, my neighbors would have learned some "new" words. The internal filter would be a real bear in that small space too. The external filter could be outside of the closet but that defeats some of the sound abatement. If I were you I would install it without the closet, use it for awhile, and if the noise is a problem, then build it around it. I have mine outside of my shop with the external filter on the inside of my shop.

[Frank Pellow]

Thanks for the advise Mike.

I have deacided to wait until I have used the unit for a while before building a closet around it. I believe that I will eventually want a closet and I am thinking that I could build it in such a way that the walls can easilty be removed should the need arise.

[Frank Pellow]

I thought that I would report upon what I decided to do for dust control. I purchased an Oneida 2 hp Commercial unit and expect to take delivery in late November. In the meantime, I have been simulating exactly where the duct work and drops will go in my shop. I did this by painting some strapping bright green then screwing in the locations where the duct work will go. Seeing this layout in place has been very valuable and, as a result, I have made a few minor changes.

I am attaching some pictures:

(1) The painted white plywood is in the spot where the dust control unit will go. The green strapping shows the lower location of the duct work. The black strips hanging down show the locations of the drops. There are 3 in this picture and there is a 4th in the next picture. The ceiling will be filled in with insulation then covered with painted plywood. The ductwork will be suspended below this. The beam will not be covered (just painted) and the trickiest part of the ductwork will be getting around this beam. (Oh yes, I am also simulation the lighting the two suspended yellow bits of OSB show the location of some of the fluorescent lights.)

(2) This shows the location of the remainder of the ductwork as well as the 4th drop.

(3) A close up of the trickier portion of the ductwork.

As usual, I would appreciate any comments and suggestions re my plans.

[Tyler Howell]

Frank,
You are scaring buddy! Your work and process has been so thorough and methodical. :eek: Thought for a while there you were an Engineer.
Very informative and inspiring.:cool:

[Jim Becker]

Frank, it's important to remember that you'll need to transition from the ceiling mounted duct down to the cyclone and that you ideally need at least a 2' straight shot into the cyclone inlet. (Which is 7" diameter on the unit you bought...which is what I have in my shop) I only raise that as it might affect how you route your duct to avoid "headroom" issues. Duct work design needs to be both horizontal and vertical, so I suggest you do some preliminary drawings that take care of both and then have Oneida help you out with the final design. That's a free service with the purchase of your system.

You'll also want to smooth out that drop that clears the central beam in the final run with real material. Any way you can mitigate the compound curves will make you happier in the long run, although your cyclone system will still kick butt regardless!

BTW, I really like how you're working this out visually. Excellent idea!

[Frank Pellow]

Frank,
You are scaring buddy! Your work and process has been so thorough and methodical. :eek: Thought for a while there you were an Engineer.
Very informative and inspiring.:cool:

Thanks Tyler, I really appreciate the encouragement. I was a software engineer and, in that job, I descovered just how valuable simulation can be.

[Michael Stafford]

Frank, I love your shop and all the planning that went into it. When I built mine, 20x24 on a slab, I was in a hurry to just get the space. We had moved to a new home and all my tools were piled in the garage. I did not plan very well and have had to overcome many shortcomings because of it. Oh well, haste makes waste and all that. Enjoy!

[Rob Russell]

Frank,

A couple of comments:

Your "corners" should be as gentle a sweep as possible. The duct manufacturers sell "long radius" elbows and 90 degree sweeps. You might consider making mockups of a couple of those, because they take up a fair amount of space and could affect your layout a bit.
You want to make the transition from the run across your ceiling to the horizontal pipe that runs over to the DC as straight as possible. It's a little hard for me to tell from the picture, but does the run across the ceiling pass under before it jogs up? If it doesn't, it should - you want to minimize the twisting and bending (just like running electrical conduit - makes pulling wire easier).
Consider buying (and returning) some 4" pvc pipe and fittings from the local big box store. The point would be to use the pipe and fittings to mockup the real DC piping so you could see how the Y's and 45 degree bends would fit together. It could help you with ordering the actual fittings you'll need.
The mockups for your lights near the skylights make me wonder if the light shining in through the skylights will throw shadows from the lights.


Rob

[Jim Becker]

Consider buying (and returning) some 4" pvc pipe and fittings from the local big box store. The point would be to use the pipe and fittings to mockup the real DC piping so you could see how the Y's and 45 degree bends would fit together. It could help you with ordering the actual fittings you'll need.The only issue with this is that the 4" stuff will not spatially be illustrative of how much space the 5" and 6" long-radius elbows, etc., take up and 4" drops on that system will really choke things. That said, it would work fine if the mockups were done in such a way using 45º elbows caclulated out to the actual dimensions of the larger duct elbows, etc.

I was really amazed at how much more room was needed for the long radius elbows when laying out the newer duct work through part of my shop after putting in the larger Oneida 2hp Commercial system! But they do make a noticiable difference in air flow and performance.

[Rob Russell]

For the 4" pipe, I was thinking more of using the fittings to see how you could make the transitions in as few and as gentle bends as possible. An example is going from the cross ceiling run to the horiztonal run over to the DC. I do realize that the 4" will be much smaller than the 5/6" stuff.

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Frank,

I'm not familiar with your previous shop post, since this is my first ever post here, at Sawmill Creek, and I was wondering why you're chosing those particular dc's, is it because of the 110v capability of the Oneida??

Is price a big consideration??? Have you looked at the Oneida 2hp commercial???

The Dec 2003 Cyclone reviews, published by Wood Magazine, seem to indicate that the 1.5 hp cyclone, would be very marginal, used with a 6" network. That's to say that 800 cfm, using 6" pipe, will net you just over 4000 FPM velocity. That's the lower limit for an efficient drop.

The 1.5 hp Oneida, pulls 800 cfm, with a 5 foot long pipe, 6" in diameter, connected to the inlet.

Adding length, adds resistance, to the tune of .4 " SP, per 10 feet of pipe. You'd have to calculate the resistance of your elbows, by converting those to equivalent length of straight pipe. That would be 12 ft equivalent length per elbow(90) in this case. That's with a long radius elbow, suited to dc's. It would be inapropriate to use that 12' equivalence, using the much tighter HVAC elbows. Resistance would be much higher.

Calculate the resistance of your single worst-case scenario. Once you know that, you can chose the dc that best suits those requirements.

I didn't recommend the 2hp Oneida, since it has the same impeller as the 1.5 hp, and will move the same amount of air, using 6" pipe. It will "look" better, in a test, but that's because the inlet on the 2hp version, is 7". When they test, they use ducting the same diameter as the inlet. With this reduced resistance, you'll pull more air. But,,,,,, when you hook it up to 6" pipe, that performance will be the same as the 1.5hp model. Both use a 12.5" impeller, turning at 3450 rpm. The commercial model, used a 14" impeller for the Wood Mag. Test, but is offered for sale, with a 13.5" impeller. Performance would be a little lower than indicated in the Wood test.

Again, that 2 hp Commercial model, uses a 7" inlet, so you have to take that into account also, when making your choice. Especially if you're gonna use 6" ducting for your network. With the commercial model, hooked up to 6" pipe, I'd expect maybe 1000 cfm. That would give you some margin (headroom), for adding a duct network.

You may find this link useful. I hope it helps. All the best, Bob
http://www.oneida-air.com/techarea/pipe_size_01.htm

[Jim Becker]

Bob, Frank, in his post from today, above indicated he's opted for the Oneida 2hp Commercial Cyclone, not the 1.5hp. Also, the design of the currently shipping impeller on that unit is improved over the older impeller, despite the size difference. Mine will suck the fleas off a dog 5 miles away in New Jersey...

BTW, welcome to SMC! Don't forget to fill out your profile!

[Rob Russell]

Hey Bob, nice first post - glad to see another poster who doesn't mind typing out more than a few sentences!. Welcome to SMC.

Comparing the 2HP to 1.5HP blowers, I'd expect to see the 2HP povide higher static pressure, even if the overall CFM is limited due to duct size.

[Bob Dodge]

Hiya Jim, Thanks for that nice welcome, I'll get on the profile right away. I just noticed that I had only read one page of this thread, so I hadn't seen any of page two. DOH!!!!

That 2hp Commercial should be a very nice dc. In fact, it was exactly the one I had decided on buying a few years back. Had to back out though, since the Canadian dollar, shipping,duties,taxes , ****erage fees, almost gave me a heart-attack, lol. It certainly looked to me to be a very competent performer, and totally capable of handling any well-equiped one-man shop. The folks at Oneida were sooo nice, too. Congratulations Frank. You'll be very happy with that dc. Very high quality unit, bullet-proof motor, and superb welding, and heavy sheet-metal. A unit like this will allow to to "grow" your shop , without having to replace the dc, and years of satisfaction.

In my case, I chose to go with an Industrial single-stage dc, a Belfab J.J. It was manufactured just outside Montreal, which is close to me. In the end I ended paying roughly half what the Oneida would have cost me, landed. It also uses very heavy sheet-metal throughout, spin-balanced 12 1/2" aluminum impeller, 2hp Baldor, with Class "F" insulation, and an amazing 1.25 Service factor rating, and manual thermal overload protection. Bullet-proof.

It actually pulls about 100 cfm more than the Oneida 2 hp Comm, at 4'5"External SP. Pulls 1100 cfm at 4.5" external SP, and that's through a 6" inlet. Filtration's pretty decent, too. 0.5 micron, using certified industrial needle-felt filters. Those flow over 60cfm/sq.ft., and on this dc, they're only being used at half capacity, so small particle filtration is excellant. Very satisfied indeed. Bought mine through an industrial supply store, called J.R. Normand Inc. in Laval Qc. They had a heck of a deal on it.

By the way Frank, what a nice shop. Ohhhh, what I wouldn't do for THAT space. That's the next "Treat" I'll pay myself. I'm sooo crowded as it is now. Just a single garage, but tons of big machinery. The worst space-hog, is a big General 26020VFD lathe. Wouldn't be too bad if I were only turning spindles, I could shove it up against a wall, but I equiped it for outboard bowl turning, so at best , I can only use it at 45 degrees to the wall. I'm actually thinking of moving it to the basement, to free up more space. I'll have to eat my Wheaties, for that one. I might try a mobile base for that, too. We'll see.

Have a great weekend everyone. All the best, Bob

[Bob Dodge]

Hiya Rob, Just saw your post as I was leaving. Actually, there will be no difference. None at all. It's the same impeller, and turns at the same rpm. The only difference is the cyclone's body intake. The 2hp, uses 7", and the 1.5 hp, uses 6".

The 2hp, will therefore move more air through the less resistive inlet, but that disappears when you neck back down to 6" pipe. You COULD use 7" pipe, but you'd have very little headroom left for a network. Would be great for a single 7" source though.

Using 7" inlets, with a 12 1/2" impeller, generates some nice testing specs(total cfm, but at low SP.), but the SP performance would be marginal for a network. You'd really have to neck down to 6" pipe. That's plenty for any one-man shop.

All the best, Bob

[Jim Becker]

Bob, be sure you're comparing the right 2hp unit. The 1.5hp and 2hp "Component" systems are very similar, but the 2hp Commercial system is a whole different system; even to the design of the impeller. That impeller isn't anything like the one in the "smaller" systems, both in size and configuration. You can see a picture of it at http://www.oneida-air.com/systems/2comm/2commfanwheel.htm. The smaller systems have a "many bladed" unit that is also shorter in depth.

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Jim, Yes, I'm aware of that. What I said was the 1.5 hp, uses the same fan-wheel as the 2hp component system. The only difference between the two, is the cyclone's inlet diameter. The 1.5hp, uses a 6" inlet, and the 2hp model, uses 7".

The 2hp Commercial, uses a totally different 13.5" impeller.

In the 1.5hp,vs 2hp, performance should show almost no difference hooked up to 6" pipe. Outlet diameters are identical in both.
http://www.oneida-air.com/systems/1-2/1-2dimensions.htm

Of course, you COULD use 7" pipe with the 2hp version, but you'd have very little headroom to operate a network. Just a short piece of pipe. The 12.5" impeller, is too marginal for a 7" network. Generates nice "test" specs though, if you're only looking at total cfm, without looking at what SP figure that's being generated at.lol.

The larger 13.5" impeller, should produce just a little less than the WoodMagazine test, since they used a 14" impeller in that test. That difference would be very small, and the downsizing from 14" to13.5",was probably necessary, in order to be used with a 2hp motor. Especially in combination with the 7' outlet. If someone were to use the system "unrestricted", say, 1 machine, with 7" pipe, and just a short length of pipe to boot.

Typically, 14" fan-wheels, used with 7" intakes, require a 3 hp motor. That combination will not produce an actual 3 BHP, but it will reduce the ampdraw, to a comfortable level. A lil' too "Hot" for the 2hp motor. especially unrestricted.

Of course, most people will buy a dc like this, to be used in a network. That network in turn, is most likely to be a 6" network. That, in and of itself, provides the necessary restriction to use a 2 hp motor, but , no-one can guarantee the user will actually operate the dc, this way.

As far as 7" intakes goes, if one were to use 7" ducting with that 2hp Commercial, there'd be very little headroom for a network. You need an actual 1100 cfm, for 7" pipe, and the 2 hp Commercial can do this , but only at 3.00" external SP max. perhaps a bit less. The 14" impeller, pulled 1100 cfm, at 3.25" ext SP. according to "Wood's" test.

In practical terms, it's really designed to use 6" pipe, and do a very good job at that. It's a helluva nice dc for the money. There's certainly nothing in the consumer dc world that'll match it, be it in performance, or fit and finish. Oneida seems like a great outfit, too.

All the best, Bob

[Jim Becker]

Hi Jim, Yes, I'm aware of that. What I said was the 1.5 hp, uses the same fan-wheel as the 2hp component system. The only difference between the two, is the cyclone's inlet diameter. The 1.5hp, uses a 6" inlet, and the 2hp model, uses 7".

In the 1.5hp,vs 2hp, performance should show almost no difference hooked up to 6" pipe. Outlet diameters are identical in both.
http://www.oneida-air.com/systems/1-2/1-2dimensions.htm
Most of the dimensions are different between the two systems and in both Oneida and independent testing, they show different performance.


The 2hp Commercial, uses a totally different 13.5" impeller.Yes, I know. I own one and previously owned the 1.5hp component system--and I really compared the two during the switchover.



As far as 7" intakes goes, if one were to use 7" ducting with that 2hp Commercial, there'd be very little headroom for a network. You need an actual 1100 cfm, for 7" pipe, and the 2 hp Commercial can do this , but only at 3.00" external SP max. perhaps a bit less. The 14" impeller, pulled 1100 cfm, at 3.25" ext SP. according to "Wood's" test.

In practical terms, it's really designed to use 6" pipe, and do a very good job at that. It's a helluva nice dc for the money. There's certainly nothing in the consumer dc world that'll match it, be it in performance, or fit and finish. Oneida seems like a great outfit, too.Oneida's formal duct designs for the 2hp commercial system specify 7" duct from the cylone inlet to at least the first branch. That is how my system is setup and it performs at at least two times the level of the 1.5hp system I had on the system previously (The latter with a 6" main)--subjective statement as I don't own testing gear. Since they generally advocate a stepped system, the 7" duct to the inlet is not an issue with velocity, IMHO, if it's done right. Please also note that in two of the three scenarios that Dave from WOOD Magazine provided as examples incorporated a 7" main. (Page 97 at the top) The actual tests were done with duct that matched the inlet diameter, so the figures for both 2hp Oneida systems in the test were accomplished with 7" duct. (See note under the fan curve diagram on page 96)

My system comes off the cyclone at 7" and moves to two 6" branches after about 8'. One of those feeds the majority of the shop and the other one cuts over to service the TS and overarm guard. Most drops are 5" with a few 4" drops for utility at machines like the lathe and router tabe.

The folks at Oneida definitely are nice folks...I've known many of them for about five years now and visited with them in February when I picked up the new system.

[Frank Pellow]

Frank, I love your shop and all the planning that went into it. When I built mine, 20x24 on a slab, I was in a hurry to just get the space. We had moved to a new home and all my tools were piled in the garage. I did not plan very well and have had to overcome many shortcomings because of it. Oh well, haste makes waste and all that. Enjoy!

Thanks Michael. I have the time to plan, I like planning, and I really want to get this shop right for me becuase I doubt that I will get another crack at building a woodworking shop.

[Frank Pellow]

Hi Frank,

...

I was wondering why you're chosing those particular dc's, is it because of the 110v capability of the Oneida??

Is price a big consideration??? Have you looked at the Oneida 2hp commercial???

...

You may find this link useful. I hope it helps. All the best, Bob
http://www.oneida-air.com/techarea/pipe_size_01.htm

Bob, I don't know why you think I am buying anything other than the Oneida 2hp Commercial. I said in my post today that this is what I have (already)purchased. :confused:

Anyway, thanks for the link. It contains stuff that I have not read before.

[Frank Pellow]

Bob, I don't know why you think I am buying anything other than the Oneida 2hp Commercial. I said in my post today that this is what I have (already)purchased. :confused:

Anyway, thanks for the link. It contains stuff that I have not read before.

I guess that I should have read further before responding to you because I see now how you made the mistake.

Also welcome to Saw Mill Creek Bob. You say that you are Canadian. Where do you live?

[Bob Dodge]

Lol, Jim, we're going in circles here, lol. We're both saying the same thing. The only difference is your point of view regarding the 2hp Component system, vs the 1.5hp unit.

I acknowledged that they have different intakes, and that the total "cfm" produced is higher, but in turn, at lower static pressure, due to the lower resistance at the intake, and yes , of course it will move more air through 7" pipe. What I said was, that when they're necked back down to 6", performance will be for all intents and purposes, identical. The reduced resistance in the 7" ducting, would give it a slight advantage cfm-wise, in an equal length network, that's because SP is lower through the 7" portion.

The actual difference, would be the "Length" resistance. Entry-losses, wouldn't apply. If someone compared identical length networks, but the 2hp used 10 feet of 7" pipe, compared to all 6" on the 1.5hp unit, the performance would be .4"SP IF the 7" pipe measured "zero" SP. Of course, that doesn't happen. Assuming the SP through that portion of 7" pipe were .2"SP, then the total difference would be .2"SP at the fan-wheel.

I have a 2400-2700 cfm blower. That's an airfoil blower, with a 15" pipe flange, a 8-9" intake(roughly), with an aerodynamic inlet bell. This is a SWSI blower(single-width,single intake). Even though that blower moves over 2400 cfm, it does so at roughly 1/2"-1" SP, and is powered by a 1/2 hp Leeson motor.

BHP, is a combination of cfm, and SP. As you know, it takes a lot more horsepower to move 1000 cfm at 4" SP, than it does to move 1000 cfm, at 1" SP. When I say horsepower, I mean "brake HP", the work actually produced by the fan-wheel.

All the best, Bob

[Jim Becker]

Bob, I really wasn't commenting on the 2hp component system, other than regarding the dimension comparison...in which there are many things that are different. I have the commercial system in my shop and that's what my duct is set up for.

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Frank,

Thank you for the nice welcome. Yes, I am Canadian. I'm in Lachute Quebec, about an hour northwest of Montreal.

I got the impression that you are Canadian as well, is that correct??? When you mentioned your Oneida dealer, I assumed Welbeck Sawmill, in Ontario. Not many Canadian distributors for Oneida. They sure seem to have a nice selection of components in stock. I was very impressed with their website. Wish I had heard of these guys when I was shopping. Just found out about them recently, last 6 months or so.

All the best, Bob

[Thomas Canfield]

A special consideration for the closet is the large air flow that will be exhausting from the dust collector and must exit the closet. Check the amount of openings and where you want them to avoid kicking up dust from the floor or drafts in the shop. You might also consider providing built in clearance against 2 fixed walls and having the door shown and the short wall both "swing" with minimal clearance internal when closed.

I have seen plans for the Woodsucker mounted external to the shop and the exhaust air returned to the shop to prevent loosing the heated/cooled air and large makeup air requirement. The Woodsucker also has a unique approach to the filter and I would think it should go longer between cleaning, but be harder to clean. I with there was some more definite information about the noise of the Woodsucker but everything I have seen it is a little nosier than the Oneida. I look forward to seeing your final decision since I am in the quandry and keep putting it off.

[Frank Pellow]

Hi Frank,

Thank you for the nice welcome. Yes, I am Canadian. I'm in Lachute Quebec, about an hour northwest of Montreal.

I got the impression that you are Canadian as well, is that correct??? When you mentioned your Oneida dealer, I assumed Welbeck Sawmill, in Ontario. Not many Canadian distributors for Oneida. They sure seem to have a nice selection of components in stock. I was very impressed with their website. Wish I had heard of these guys when I was shopping. Just found out about them recently, last 6 months or so.

All the best, Bob

Yes, I live in Toronto and my dealer is Welbeck Sawmill. If you think their machinery is impressive, you should go there and see their wood -a very nice selection of which I hope to bring a trailer load to my new shop.

[Frank Pellow]

...
have Oneida help you out with the final design. That's a free service with the purchase of your system.

...



I already had the free design from Onieda and I was not favourably impressed. :( They ignored the fact that there is a beam in the middle of the ceiling and they ignored the fact that there is an interior wall dividing the dust collector from the wood stove (so encroached upon the wall).

I will attach the overly simplistic design that they did. By the way, it does show the 2 foot run of 7" pipe that you mention.

[Jim Becker]

Frank, that sure doesn't look like any of the designs I've gotten from Oneida! One has to wonder what happened there...

BTW, the filter can go anywhere within a 360º ring around the cyclone, so there will be no issue with your wall between the DC and the stove. It's completely adjustable when you install the system.

[Frank Pellow]

Frank,

A couple of comments:
...

You want to make the transition from the run across your ceiling to the horizontal pipe that runs over to the DC as straight as possible. It's a little hard for me to tell from the picture, but does the run across the ceiling pass under before it jogs up? If it doesn't, it should - you want to minimize the twisting and bending (just like running electrical conduit - makes pulling wire easier).
...
The mockups for your lights near the skylights make me wonder if the light shining in through the skylights will throw shadows from the lights.


Rob

The the run across the ceiling does pass under before it jogs up.

I assume that your question about shadows is just from the fixture with the lights turned off. I don't see any shadows from the mock ups.

[Bob Dodge]

Holy smoke Frank, did you win the 6/49 Jackpot, lol???? A trailer full of wood wood be sooo nice;-)). Frank, did you get to check out their handtools? Did they carry Lie-Nielsen by any chance?? Or Adria saws???.

I think I'll contact Welbeck, and get on a mailing list.

All the best, Bob

[Frank Pellow]

...

I was really amazed at how much more room was needed for the long radius elbows when laying out the newer duct work through part of my shop after putting in the larger Oneida 2hp Commercial system! But they do make a noticiable difference in air flow and performance.

Jim what is the radius of these? I want to know about 7", 6", and 5".

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Frank,

Long-radius elbows, are typically 2 1/2 times diameter. So a 7" duct(90), would be 17 1/2" radius.

A 6" diameter 90, would have a 15" radius, and a 5" 90, would have a 12 1/2" radius.

Regards, Bob

[Jim Becker]

Jim what is the radius of these? I want to know about 7", 6", and 5".
I'll check when I return to the shop, but the adjustable elbows from Oneida are 1.75 x diameter according to their web site. I can only actually measure the 6" and 5" as my 7" elbows are only very gentle, partial bends to get from the inlet level of the cyclone up to ceiling height with a minimal distruption of air flow.

[Frank Pellow]

I'll check when I return to the shop, but the adjustable elbows from Oneida are 1.75 x diameter according to their web site. I can only actually measure the 6" and 5" as my 7" elbows are only very gentle, partial bends to get from the inlet level of the cyclone up to ceiling height with a minimal distruption of air flow.

Thanks in advance Jim. 5" and 6" will be fine.

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Jim and Frank, seems odd that Oneida would refer to their 1.75x diameter elbows, as well as their 2.5x diameter elbows, as BOTH being long radius.

http://www.oneida-air.com/ductwork/elbows.htm

Here's "AirHandling's" take on long radius. These are the folks who did the ducting for Norm Abram's New Yankee Workshop.

http://www.airhand.com/subcategory.asp?CategoryID=1
http://www.airhand.com/product.asp?CategoryID=1&SubCategoryID=26

Frank, here's a link to Maticair, apparently just outside Toronto. Might be worth your while talking to them. They are a manufacturer, and buying direct can save you a whack o' cash.

http://www.maticair.com/

Here's a post by "Gus, in Maple", and some pics of his installation. He bought his spiral pipe from Maticair, but bought HVAC elbows at a local big-box store. I bought all 6" spiral from a local manufacturer, and paid $17.00 per 10 foot length, tax included..

http://www.canadianwoodworking.com/chatarch/fw2003/webbbs_config.pl?read=116987

Good luck, Bob

[Jim Becker]

Hi Jim and Frank, seems odd that Oneida would refer to their 1.75x diameter elbows, as well as their 2.5x diameter elbows, as BOTH being long radius.
They are two different products made in different ways. The first is an adjustable elbow (1.5 x diam radius) and still has a lot more room than the elbows from the 'borg. The second is a machine-made elbow (non-adjustable-2.5 x dia radius). And, of course, they sell a gored elbow that is mucho-dollars with a big radius.

The ones I have are the long-radius adjustable type. Frank, here are the measurements:

6" = ~10" radius
5" = ~ 8" radius
4" = ~ 6" radius

Please note that this is a visual estimate...

[Frank Pellow]

Holy smoke Frank, did you win the 6/49 Jackpot, lol???? A trailer full of wood wood be sooo nice;-)). Frank, did you get to check out their handtools? Did they carry Lie-Nielsen by any chance?? Or Adria saws???.

I think I'll contact Welbeck, and get on a mailing list.

All the best, Bob

No lottery win -> my trailer is small.

I've only been to Welbeck Sawmill once and did not check their hand tools. I will be going again near the end of October and will let you know then (if you have not already found out). Bob, I encourage you to visit the place in person.

Also thanks for all the information on ducting that you posted earlier today.

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Frank,

You're quite welcome, re. "the ducting info". Sure takes a chunk off the total cost of that dc, if you buy direct. The outfit I dealt with, was "Mega-Tube", in laval Qc. These small manufacturers are everywhere. Usually in the Yellow pages, under "piping".

I have a few "gored" long radius elbows, and paid roughly half of retail price. Those can cost about $60. each. I prefer the really smooth stamped steel long-radius elbows, but havn't found a supplier yet. Nordfab has those, I think.

The adjustable HVAC 90's are quite inexpensive, and you can adjust them to 45*, and connect two, end to end, to make a nice long radius 90*.

Frank, have you given any thought to running your ducting under the floor??? Sure would avoid a lot of drops, and the rise. Probably reduce overall length, and cost, too.

I'd love to see Welbeck Sawmill one day. I havn't been to Toronto area for a long time, and I understand Welbeck, is a few hours drive north-west of Toronto.

I'm a longggg wayyy offf. About 5 1/2 hrs east of Toronto.

I've been trying to catch up on your shop posts. Very interesting, and well done. Congratulations.

All the best, Bob

[Frank Pellow]

Hi Frank,


Frank, have you given any thought to running your ducting under the floor??? Sure would avoid a lot of drops, and the rise. Probably reduce overall length, and cost, too.

...

I've been trying to catch up on your shop posts. Very interesting, and well done. Congratulations.

All the best, Bob

Its too late to go under the floor. Once you catch up on my shop posts, you will see that I finished the floor last May and that this included installing both insulation and wire mesh under the floor. I did consider both dust control ducting and electric cable under the floor but decided against it. Part of this decision, was based on the fact that I wanted to complete the floor at a time when I had not finalized my decisions re dust control and elcectricity.

[Chris Padilla]

Frank,

Check out a couple of the pics from the CSBBQ at Terry's place; you'll see a good distance shot of the ducting he used for his D/C. I think I might be sold on it.

He used 6" PVC everywhere (Schedule 40). He made all his long radius 90s from 2 45s. I priced some 20' lengths of 6" PVC pipe: $54 at my local h/w store. They had a very poor selection of fittings however, but a 45 was around $12, I think. A 90 was round $22. I plan to check an irrigation warehouse near me and see what they have.

Either way you cut it, ducting is gonna be pricey.

One thing that Terry did that I like, is that none of the PVC was permanently glued. He just friction-fitted them all and then put some caulking around the edge to air-seal it. Worked great! Terry has rerouted his stuff so many time that he is glad it works well this way. Something to think about for future changes.

Anyway, we ran Terry's DC plenty this weekend and so I'm a believer in the kit and this ducting process. It really helps to see it in action and in person.

Good luck and check into PVC...I really think I'm going to go this way unless I can find a good local source of true D/C fittings. We'll see...I'm not worried AT ALL about grounding the PVC or about static build-up...it just isn't a problem.

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Chris,

Here are some thoughts and discussions on using PVC. You may find some of the responses interesting.

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/PVC_piping.html

Using metal spiral pipe is always the best way to go, since all the fittings are designed to work with this system. These pipes are designed to deal with high-velocity airflows, saturated with abrasive dusts. It need not cost an arm and a leg.

Retailers of spiral pipe, have to pay an arm and a leg to have it delivered to them, store it, advertise it, then in turn , deliver it to you. Why not buy direct from a small local manufacturer? These guys are everywhere. Just look in the Yellow Pages, under "piping". Alternatively, you could try an Industrial heating and ventilation contractor, and ask for a "contact".

I paid $17. Canadian($12.50 US) , for a 10 ft length of 6" diameter heavy-guage spiral pipe. That's cheaper than the price of PVC. They even cut it to length for me, no charge.

The long radius elbows, and tapered wyes, can get a little pricey, especially if you buy retail. Going direct, would cost roughly half, or less. The "gored" elbows, are very labour intensive, since they're made with a single piece of sheet metal, then cut, then all the joints welded. There's nothing wrong with using inexpensive adjustable HVAC elbows. An adjustable 90 degree elbow, should cost about $3.

Those adjustable 90's, can be adjusted to become a 45 degree elbow, simply by rotating the "sections" in oppoite directions; clockwise, counter-clockwise. Connecting two of those adjustable 90's(each set at 45 degrees) end to end, will give you a beautiful long-radius 90 degree turn. Just tape the joints. Make sure the crimped ends, are in the direction of airflow.

Long radius stamped-steel elbows(2.5x diameter) are beautiful, but harder to find. Again, a HVAC contractor should be able to point you in the right direction.

Tapered wyes are just great, but again, can be pricey. Using inexpensive HVAC wyes, with 45 degree take-offs, is fine. 30 degree would be even better, if you can find it. The 45 degree stuff, you can get at any hardware store, and cost peanuts.

As for blast-gates, well, it's pretty hard to beat the ones you'll see at Bill Pentz's site. They're easy to make, cheap, and work very well.

http://www.benchmark.20m.com/articles/BlastGate/blastgatebuilding.html

All the best, Bob

[Jim Becker]

Using inexpensive HVAC wyes,...
The one issue with these is that they are "backwards" relative to crimping. Sometimes, it's more cost effective in the long run to purchase "real" dust collection fittings in this respect and as you point out, there are sources that have them at reasonable prices as compared to hard-core retailers. "Longer radius" 26 guage adjustable elbows are also reasonable priced, but not generally available locally. It's just a bit of shopping... :D

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Jim,

"Backwards" crimping need not be an issue with HVAC, if you have access to the proper components. Obviusly with elbows, it's a non-issue. Just point them where you want them to go.

With wye's, if you can only find wyes with "wrong-way" crimps, just cut the crimped section, and use adaptor sleeves. Those can be had where you buy spiral pipe, and are quite different from the ones Oneida shows in their selection. They're not crimped, smooth at both ends, and have a raised ring at mid-point,that the two pipe sections butt up against. Very cheap, too.

With reducers, there are for example 6"-5" reducers, but also 5"-6" "reducers". The crimping is reversed from one to the other.

All the best, Bob

[Chris Padilla]

Here is the shot from Terry's I was referring to. His DC sure sucked! :)

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Chris, Terry sure has one heck of a shop there, doesn't he. Just amazing. He's got more "toys" in there, than I can begin to imagine, lol.;-))

Here's a few more shots.

http://www.terryhatfield.com/

All the best, Bob

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Great score Frank! I think you chose well on the DC.

Don't belive everything you read about the PVC DC explosions theory Bob...I have yet to meet or talk to anyone who catually had that happen.

[Jim Becker]

Here are some thoughts and discussions on using PVC. You may find some of the responses interesting.
Along the lines of Kelly's comments, you might want to puruse Dr. Rod Cole's article on the same... http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rodec/woodworking/articles/DC_myths.html

PVC is definitely not appropriate for a commercial shop, but for the hobbyest, no issue in my mind. That said, I also prefer metal duct for the flexibility it gives in duct design that you cannot get with PVC, primarily due to non-availability of the necessary duct sizes and components.

[Chris Padilla]

Jim,

True, there is no 5" PVC...the best you can get is from 6" to 4" or if you want, 8" is available but no odd numbers there. :( For example, a wye only comes in all 6" or 6" x 4". But, HEY!, it might force you to stay all 6" which while possibly painful, is the best thing for DC!

If you want to go the PVC route, I chatted with an extremely helpful guy at a local irrigation warehouse (this is the place you should go to for DC PVC stuff) and we found 3-4 kinds of plastic he stocked. There is the Schedule 40 stuff but it is VERY expensive for the fittings for Sch 40...twice that for S&D fittings. No doubt that Sch 40 is very heavy-duty for DC but I think it is overkill.

There is also SDR21 and SDR35. I forget the reasons agains SDR21 but I think you cannot use the same fittings for SDR35 and SDR21. SDR21 requires the use of Sch 40 fittings I think. Don't blast me if I'm wrong here. :)

Anyway, in the end, we decided that the SDR35 pipe (S & D, sewer and drain) and its associated fittings would do the job and be the most cost-effective over anything related to Sch 40.

Prices I got from Horizon, my irrigation warehouse:

SDR35, 6", 20' lengths, $57.20 ($2.86/ft.)
6" wye S&D, $30.98
6" 90 deg S&D, $14.65 (you shouldn't use these...too tight a radius)
6" 45 deg S&D, $15.76 (2 needed to make a 90)
6" coupling S&D, $9.67
6" x 4" wye S&D, $27.00

Sch 40 fittings...just double what you see above...roughly. Also, you won't find a 6" wye in Sch 40...only tees. Now the SDR35 they have was gasketed and hubbed strangely at one end (kind of double-hubbed, probably for the gasket) so I will probably lose about 6" of each 20' pipe and I am probably paying a bit more for the gasket.

I think PVC might be easier to work. I also think PVC might be easier to seal air tight. PVC won't dent if you drop it or accidentally step on it or bump it. There should be less cut hands from PVC vs. sheetmetal. I wonder, too, if PVC might outlast metal? Water and PVC go well together but even galavanized steel won't last forever against water. When I built my cyclone, it was recommended to spread some polyurethane caulk along the inside of the cyclone at the intake where chips will hit the cylinder wall.

Also, with Terry's method of a friction fit and a bit of caulk at the edge, it should be easy to change the piping as needs change in the shop.

So those are my arguments for PVC over metal but I an anxious to hear more reasons against PVC. I will try and find some local sheetmetal place and see what they have, get prices, and then sit down and figure out the $$s to compare PVC and metal. Should be an interesting exercise. :)

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Kelly, You gotta ask yourself this question regarding PVC and fires, Why would you ever hear about a homeshop fire????ANY home fire??????

If a forest-fire is about to wipe out a community, you'll hear about it, but a home fire??? Of course, you never will.

I think sometimes we "assume" a little too much on these chats, then take it as gospel.

If you ever did have a fire, is there a possibility that an insurance company could balk at dishing out the dough??

There's more ways to start a fire with dc's, than just static electricity. One way would be to pick up a nail with a floor-sweep. When that hits a steel impeller, you'll get a spark. A spark, sitting on a pile of dust in the dc, being fanned by incoming air, could cause a fire quite easily.

While chances of that happening are remote, and that could happen using metal pipe as well as PVC, could the insurance company use it as an excuse to not pay out.??

PVC is combustible, and in industrial applications, you are not permitted to use combustible plastic pipe, to convey combustible materials.

As Jim says, the fittings are also more appropriate with metal spiral pipe. Static becomes a non-issue, and the insurance claim concern, is eliminated.

Most people use PVC because they think metal spiral pipe is too expensive, and that they're saving money. It just isn't so. You have to look around a bit to find it, 'cause it's less common, but any heating and ventilation contractor can point you to a source. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I bought from a small local pipe manufacturer, and paid about $1.20/ft for 6" pipe. That's cheaper than PVC.

These pipe manufacturers are everywhere, just not very visible to the average hobbyist. Look in the Yellow Pages, under "pipng".

All the best, Bob

[Chris Padilla]

Hi Kelly, You gotta ask yourself this question regarding PVC and fires, Why would you ever hear about a homeshop fire????ANY home fire??????

If a forest-fire is about to wipe out a community, you'll hear about it, but a home fire??? Of course, you never will.

I think sometimes we "assume" a little too much on these chats, then take it as gospel.
True, Bob, but assuming that it does cause fires is the same thing. All I can say is that Terry has had his up for many years (I'll let him correct me) and his personal belief is that it is simply not a concern.


Most people use PVC because they think metal spiral pipe is too expensive, and that they're saving money. It just isn't so. You have to look around a bit to find it, 'cause it's less common, but any heating and ventilation contractor can point you to a source. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I bought from a small local pipe manufacturer, and paid about $1.20/ft for 6" pipe. That's cheaper than PVC.

These pipe manufacturers are everywhere, just not very visible to the average hobbyist. Look in the Yellow Pages, under "pipng".
I think this may be true, Bob, and I'll certainly report back what I find out. Shipping busts the budget for the spiral stuff so if I can find it locally, it will definately go back to being a consideration. Right now, PVC is looking good to me.

[JOHN HANCOCK]

Chris,

I bought my pipe from Air Ducts West in Hayward. I got their name from Bill Pentz's website. There was a price increase right after I bought due to steel prices but I paid:
$16.75 26 Ga 6" sprial 10'
$28.00 24 Ga 6X6X6 wyes
$11.75 24 Ga Die stamp 90's
$10.50 24 Ga " " 45's
$ 3.50 6" couplings

I decided to buy the blast gates there when I went to pick up the order and can't find the receipt but I think they were $21.00 for 6".
Of course, since I picked up, no freight.

The price on the pipe went up to $22, I think. Not sure of new prices on others.

[Chris Padilla]

Sweet, John!! Thanks so much for the pointer...metal is suddenly looking good again and Hayward is darn LOCAL! :D I hadn't read Bill's site in a while and I probably should have.

So the pipe prices are a bit cheaper for metal (2.20/ft vs. 2.86/ft) but the fittings seem to be A LOT cheaper. I assume these are bonfide dust collection fittings or are they still HVAC-type of fittings? It would about seal the deal if they were for dust-collection (pointed the right direction).

Are the 90s and 45s consider the long-radius style? Do they have gentle tapers from 6" on down? Are they open on weekends? :D :D :D I suppose I could Google 'em and find out everything for myself! :D

[JayStPeter]

I used a combo of Sch35 PVC and metal. I bought 10' sections, 45s and wyes in PVC from the local borg. I seem to remember the prices being signifncantly cheaper than Chris' list ... along the lines of $18 for a wye.
When I needed adjustable elbows and adapters, I used the cheapo $5 HVAC stuff. These fittings have plenty of bends, so are strong enough. Then made my own blast gates. I can't remember exactly how much I spent on DC piping, but I think around $600. A significant number there ~$230 was my order from Oneida that included some 7" stuff and adapters to 6" to get out of the Cyclone plus the flex tube.

Jay

[Chris Padilla]

Thanks for the reminder, Jay. I need to visit the borg and see what they have, too, but I just don't recall seeing 6" fittings there to be honest. Still, worth another look...I practically live there on the weekends anyway.... :rolleyes: ...no wonder my shop is taking forever!! :p

[Terry Hatfield]

Chris,

Sorry to be so tardy in my response. A little hospital stay this week kinda got in the way. Not to worry, I'm OK now..or rather will be pretty soon.

I used S&D , sewer and drain. Lighter and cheaper than sch 35 or 40. I have talked with many people across the country about this pipe and everyone has been able to find it eventually but it took some doing for some folks. It just all depends on what is used in your area. Try plumbing and irrigation supply houses.The pipe should not be more than $1 or so per foot. If fittings are not available or not economical in your area they can be purchased from McMaster and Carr.

www.mcmaster.com

I see the 6X6X6 wyes for example are $10.53 each acording to their site. I doubt that anyone would have much more footage or fittings than Dennis Peacock's shop. I bought all the necessary parts and pieces and helped Dennis with his install. Total for everything was about $400 if I remember correctly.

Is the spiral pipe and fittings better for dust collection??? Maybe, but you got some first hand experience with my system and I seriously doubt that spiral pipe and "real" DC fittings would make any measurable difference except the cost. Bob has an extensive knowledge of dust collecdtion and I agree with him on every point except the economics of PVC. I simply do not see any way that one can construct a 6" system for less or even equal to what S&D PVC is with spiral metal.

I personally would not ever use anything except PVC. But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

t

[Bob Dodge]

Hiya Terry,

Good to see you again. Been a while, it seems. Hope you're feeling well, and getting better by the day.

Well, if anyone ever was in a position to comment about PVC, it most certainly is you, Terry. That's quite the set-up you have. Always puts a grin on my face, when I take the "Shop tour". That's flat out, the nicest shop I've ever seen, lol. I'd kill for HALF that space, ;-))

I mentioned PVC, primarily as an insurance consideration. I'm just not certain what they might do, in the event of a fire. I do know, that in industrial applications, it is strictly "verbotten".(forbidden) I'd certainly not have any issues with airflow, especially if one takes the time to provide adequate relief in the elbows, wyes, etc. Two 45's end to end, certainly is preferable to a single tight 90.

I was easily able to find a small manufacturer of metal spiral pipe, about two years ago. Paid $17. Canadian, for 10 ft lengths, of 22 guage pipe. That's about $12.50 US, per 10 feet.= $1.25 a foot.

I found my supplier by starting with a heating and ventilation supplier. They had none, but were able to recommend a place, which was right down the street. In that situation, I found that the metal was MUCH cheaper, than any PVC I had previously looked at.

I picked up a few long radius elbows, but even at half price, I found them expensive. I used HVAC elbows in some situations, ensuring nice long-radius turns. Two 45's, end to end, to make a single 90. Was dirt cheap, too. Works fine.

For my pre-separator, I use strictly OVERSIZED elbows, especially if I have a tight 90 degree turn. I merely add a reducer, after the oversized elbow, to neck back down to the appropriate duct size. The oversized elbows at the pre-separator, really reduce resistance dramatically in some cases. Depends on how resistive that particular branch is.

Just as a point of interest, some industrial cyclones, are now required to have an explosion vent. Not certain exactly, what that translates too. I'll be going to a large industrial trade show, at the end of October, and try to get more details.

Take care Terry, and all the best, Bob

[Chris Padilla]

Terry,

Can you be more specific about the kind of pipe you use? I guess I should have read off your pipe exactly what you have. Darn it!!:mad:

The irrigation house did show me some really thin 6" pipe but I could squeeze it pretty easily with my hand and so thought it might be too flimsy and I passed on it pretty quickly. The 6" fittings the irrigation house had were the cheapest ones they had and were S&D so perhaps McMaster-Carr, even with shipping and possibly tax, might be cheaper.

[Terry Hatfield]

Terry,

Can you be more specific about the kind of pipe you use? I guess I should have read off your pipe exactly what you have. Darn it!!:mad:

The irrigation house did show me some really thin 6" pipe but I could squeeze it pretty easily with my hand and so thought it might be too flimsy and I passed on it pretty quickly. The 6" fittings the irrigation house had were the cheapest ones they had and were S&D so perhaps McMaster-Carr, even with shipping and possibly tax, might be cheaper.

c,

Most likely I have what they guy at the irrigation supply showed you. It should be stamped ASTM 2729. That is the sewer and drain pipe. It is fine for DC. I have helped a few guy's that bought the pipe locally and ordered the fittings from McMaster. Sometimes that is the most economical way.

t

[Frank Pellow]

I picked up my Oneida 2hp commercial dust control system about a month ago from Welbeck Sawmill. Welbeck Sawmill is in the bush about a three hour drive from Toronto and it is well worth the trip (http://www.welbecksawmill.com/). I had a very very full trailer coming home. It is a good thing that Oneida pack their equipment so well. :) In fact their packing is made better than a lot of manufacturer's products.

Since then, everything has been sitting in my garage waiting for me to prepare the shop. This morning, I moved the unit into the shop and the ductwork just outside the shop. I am attaching a couple of photos.


Aside: With a couple more hours work, we will be able to get the car into the garage again (for the first time since last March). Margaret (my wife) has been on my case about this for some time and it is none too soon because winter is on its way.
I have no idea whether getting the unit put together and operational is going to be easy or difficult nor how long it will take. I am about to find out. :confused:

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Go Frank Go! Let me know how you like that Oneida system! That's the numer dc I've got in mind for my shop!

[John Miliunas]

Hey, first class all the way, huh Frank? Hope all goes well with the install. I didn mine completely by seat of the pants, not having worked with metal ductwork before and only insight gleaned from SMC on the duct network design. Got luck, I think, 'cuz by and large, it all works quite well. :) Nice to get the garage space back, I'll bet! It's good to keep LOYL happy about stuff like that! :D Good luck with the sub-project! :cool:

[Mike Kelly]

Frank, hanging the unit on the wall needs at least 2 pairs of hands that can lift and hold weight pretty good. Other than that it is a one man job. I hung mine myself and really needed help. I had to hang mine instead of putting it on top of the brackets because of the way I wanted the exhaust to come out. It was tricky holding 60 pounds or so and installing nuts and bolts and washers and spacers and not falling off the ladder or dropping the motor. The bottom of the cyclone was also a chore where I could have used help. Yours is heavier than my 1.5 HP also. All of the ducting just took time to rivet together and seal. For hanging my ductwork, I used 1 X 2 material that I kerfed every foot or so, screwed that to the rafters, and used tywraps to attach the ductwork to the ceiling. It is easy to move if you change your mind or move equipment later. Have fun and show us some pictures when you are done or as you make progress.

[Jim Becker]

Frank...you will need help from at least one additional strong person to hang the cyclone. I was able to do the smaller one myself, but when I upgraded to the 2hp commercial, I had to drag Fred over for an assist. VERY heavy and unwieldy for even "Paul Bunyan"!

[Frank Pellow]

Thanks for the pictures and advice Mike.

Mike and Jim, I hear you about the two person thing, but I think I will first attempt the task by myself using temporary scafolding. I will certainly let you know whether or not that worked OK.

[Ed Weiser]

Frank

I used an inexpensive "come along" and fabric webbing straps to lift my 2 hp Oneida into position. I agree, one person cannot do this alone safely without a way to winch the device into postion--with the winch it was difficult and a little tedious but feasible. Just be sure your ceiling will support the weight. Good luck.

Ed

[Frank Pellow]

Frank

I used an inexpensive "come along" and fabric webbing straps to lift my 2 hp Oneida into position. I agree, one person cannot do this alone safely without a way to winch the device into postion--with the winch it was difficult and a little tedious but feasible. Just be sure your ceiling will support the weight. Good luck.

Ed
Thanks Ed. I am supporting the unit from the wall with brackets, not from the ceiling. The brackets were purchased from Oneida and are going to be screwed into 2x6 framing, so I assume that everything is strong enough. It had better be ...

[Ed Weiser]

Frank

So did I (hang the DC from the wall bracket.) The unit is so heavy and ungainly you may still need help or a hoist to get it in postion. The lip of the section that includes the motor is not very wide and until it is bolted in position the risk of the entire section falling to the floor is substantial.

Ed

[Jim Becker]

Frank, I agree with Ed. Even with scaffolding and other aids, you really should have another person to help you for safety reasons. It will only take about ten or fifteen minutes of their time...a neighbor, friend or relative will do just nicely.

[Frank Pellow]

My friends Bert and Emrys came over yesterday in order to help me install the dust controller.

Following is a series of eight pictures (in two posts), showing the operation.

First look at picture (0) in post #97 in this thread. I made this modification to the brackets later but it should have been done at this stage.


(1) The first section (it's heavy!) bolted onto the wall.


Since the centres of the two angle brackets had to be 22 inches apart, I could nly bolt directly into one of the studs. So I attached two 2x8s to the studs and bolted the unit onto them. The leftmost, angle bracket is also bolted into a 2x6 stud.

(2) Emrys uses temporary clamps to position the 2nd piece.

(3) Frank connects the 3rd piece.

(4) Frank bolts on the 4th piece.

(5) Bert and Emrys complete connecting the filter.


Notice that the filter is on an angle. The weight of the unit has caused the from of the angle brackets at the top to be about 1/4 inch lower than the back part next to the wall. This tilt is subsequently to be exaggerated in the sections below it. I assume that this tilt does not matter and would appreciate hearing from folks to either confirm or contradict my assumption.

(that’s all the pictures that I am allowed in one post -carry on to the next post for more pictures)

[Frank Pellow]

(6) Lunch break after the unit is installed (but, without ducts or electricity).

(7) Another view of lunch break

(8) Starting to instal the ductwork

[Glenn Clabo]

Are those Harvey's burgers?

[Frank Pellow]

Are those Harvey's burgers?
No, they are veal and hot pepper sandwiches made at a bakery/deli about two blocks from my house. Delicious with a good selection of beer from small Ontario breweries (none of the Molson or Budweiser swill for my workers :D ).

[Jim Becker]

Looks fine, Frank. The tilt isn't a problem although you could mitigate it a little by moving the unit as close to the wall as possible without touching it...you have it way out on the brackets!! Physics is involved here...levers, specifically. Putting the weight at the end of the bars, rather than closer to the middle will increase the effect that the weight has on the bracket itself. Moving it back will only take you a few minutes (and not require any help. Just remove the filter, remove the two bolts, slide the unit back, drill some new holes and bolt it in place.

[Frank Pellow]

Looks fine, Frank. The tilt isn't a problem although you could mitigate it a little by moving the unit as close to the wall as possible without touching it...you have it way out on the brackets!! Physics is involved here...levers, specifically. Putting the weight at the end of the bars, rather than closer to the middle will increase the effect that the weight has on the bracket itself. Moving it back will only take you a few minutes (and not require any help. Just remove the filter, remove the two bolts, slide the unit back, drill some new holes and bolt it in place.
Thanks Jim, I am gald that there is no problem. I will think about your advise and probably will act upon it.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Looks like a nice system Frank. I finally see the CN tower. In the last picture you showed I couldn't see that. You have quite an artiste there!

[Karl Laustrup]

Looking good Frank. And THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU for the excellent pictures and description of installation. I am going to save this thread and print it out so I may take advantage of your tutorial and for your sage advice also Jim.
I'm still a ways out on mine. I will try and document my installation also. I only hope it will be as good as yours Frank.
When do expect to fire that puppy up for the first time? Just wondering so I can bolt down everything so that it doesn't get sucked up.:eek: :eek: :D :D

Karl

P.S. I am one of the best at what is shown in Pics 6&7. My FORTE' so to speak.

[Frank Pellow]

Jim, I don't know if you spotted it, but that is the picture of your installation nailed up just above the pencil sharpener.

[Jim Becker]

Jim, I don't know if you spotted it, but that is the picture of your installation nailed up just above the pencil sharpener.
No, I missed that...was chatting via IM with a friend while listening in on a conference call... :D

[Mike Kelly]

Thanks Jim, I am gald that there is no problem. I will think about your advise and probably will act upon it.

Frank, this is looking real good! You may want to add some spacers at the bottom of the angle brackets to get the filter and unit straight, if moving it back towards wall doesn't get it all plumb. Also maybe loosening the 4 bolts on the filter and pulling the bottom out from the wall and retightening may help. Nothing wrong with being out of plumb except esthetics.... How can one volunteer to be a helper next time? The benefits are obvious!

[Frank Pellow]

Looking good Frank. And THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU for the excellent pictures and description of installation. I am going to save this thread and print it out so I may take advantage of your tutorial and for your sage advice also Jim.
I'm still a ways out on mine. I will try and document my installation also. I only hope it will be as good as yours Frank.
When do expect to fire that puppy up for the first time? Just wondering so I can bolt down everything so that it doesn't get sucked up.:eek: :eek: :D :D

Karl

P.S. I am one of the best at what is shown in Pics 6&7. My FORTE' so to speak.
I am glad to be of help Karl.

I wired the machine and "fired it up" this afternoon. It sure is loud! I really hope the some day I can enclose it. The small interior divider wall is insulated towards that end.

I have started to connect the ductwork but I think that I will not go any further until I purchase real machinery to hook up to it.

[Karl Laustrup]

I thought I felt a powerful breeze from west to east earlier. That must have been when you lit the fuse to that sucker. You say it's loud. From everything I saw when researching DC's Oneida is the quietest of the ones out there. Just think how those others must sound.:eek: :eek:

Again thanks Frank.

Karl

[Frank Pellow]

As per Jim's suggestion, I drilled some new holes (see photo that I have labelled 0 below) and moved the unit back towards the wall (about 3 inches). I am happier with it there but it did not seem to help much with tyhe filter angel.

Mike also suggested:

... You may want to add some spacers at the bottom of the angle brackets to get the filter and unit straight, if moving it back towards wall doesn't get it all plumb. Also maybe loosening the 4 bolts on the filter and pulling the bottom out from the wall and retightening may help. ...
I don't really want to add spacers. Loosening then retightening the 4 bolts did not help -there is very little play, so the filter can't be moved far.

One thing that is better is that the filter is now in a position that I can more easily continue the wall in order to encapsulate the whole thing should I decide to do so.

Two new pictures have been added to the series:

(0) Drill holes in brackets in order to get unit closer to the wall

(9) Wired and waiting for tools to make use of it

Also see the thread http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=14961&page=3&pp=15 for the story of the follow-on work and problems with the ductwork.

[Chris Padilla]

Wow, that metal ducting sure looks nice! :) Too bad you didn't have room for a "straight-shot" of ducting from the cyclone. I see Ethan continues to have fun making his artistry in your shop...kind of his touch to your work! :) My daughter did the same thing in my shop.

[JayStPeter]

Frank,

My filter hangs a little crooked also (no comments necessary, the humor of that statement isn't lost on me). I guess that's what happens when you have a REAL filter as opposed to the little girly thing that they also sell. :D

I put some little blocks of wood under mine just to give it a little support. I don't really think it needs it, but it keeps it from swaying when I'm cleaning out the drum.

Jay

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Looking good Frank!! I wouldn't worry about the angle at all...especially if you are enclosing it.

[Jim Fancher]

Everything is looking great Frank. When it comes to the cyclone setups, I'm living vicariously through you guys. I can't justify one with the few projects that I do in my garage shop.

That beer likes kinda good, even at 9:55 am Central Time. :D

[Darren Ford]

I see where you got the inspiration for the filter placement. Seriously though, don't worry about the angle, its only noticeable because the room is empty.



http://www.emailmom.com/leaningtowerofpellows.jpg

[Frank Pellow]

Nice photo touch up Darren.

[Frank Pellow]

Someone (and I profusely apologize that I forget who), notified Oneida of my leaning unit problems and pointed them to this thread.

Yesterday afternoon, I received a call from Oneida and that told me that the support brackets that had been supplied to me were incorrect (they are intended for the 1.5 hp unit). The brackets that I should have used do, indeed, match those in their manual. The lady that I spoke to said that they are going to send me the correct brackets free of charge (and she already knew enough to tell UPS that I did not pay for them so I will not be charged brokerage and tax).

I am not looking forward to the task of remounting the cyclone, but it does give me the excuse that I need to get my friends back and to mount the unit higher on the wall.

[Chris Padilla]

That's great, Frank. It will be worth it...you'll just have to trust "us" on this one! :D

[Mike Kelly]

Someone (and I profusely apologize that I forget who), notified Oneida of my leaning unit problems and pointed them to this thread.

Yesterday afternoon, I received a call from Oneida and that told me that the support brackets that had been supplied to me were incorrect (they are intended for the 1.5 hp unit). The brackets that I should have used do, indeed, match those in their manual. The lady that I spoke to said that they are going to send me the correct brackets free of charge (and she already knew enough to tell UPS that I did not pay for them so I will not be charged brokerage and tax).

I am not looking forward to the task of remounting the cyclone, but it does give me the excuse that I need to get my friends back and to mount the unit higher on the wall.

It was me Frank. I emailed Heather at Oneida and she immediately recognized the problem and set about to fix it. They are good people to work with. Glad it will get your buddies back ( I am sure the brew and snacks are enough to draw their attention!) to help you raise it higher.

[Karl Laustrup]

Way to go Mike. It is good to know that Oneida is going to take care of Frank's "leaning filter".

Now if I have any strange stuff like that I know they will take care of it.

Frank, I am glad you will be moving your unit up higher. I am working on having mine as a straight shot from the unit. No bends until reaching a drop point for tools. I'm thinking I can run 7" for the total run and not drop down dimensionally until the drops to the tools. I am also thinking of mounting my filter horizontally and making a 90 at the bottom and then mount the dust collector there. I'm going to check with Oneida on that part of my plan.
I hope we will get more pictures, Frank.

Karl

[Mike Kelly]

Way to go Mike. It is good to know that Oneida is going to take care of Frank's "leaning filter".

Now if I have any strange stuff like that I know they will take care of it.

Frank, I am glad you will be moving your unit up higher. I am working on having mine as a straight shot from the unit. No bends until reaching a drop point for tools. I'm thinking I can run 7" for the total run and not drop down dimensionally until the drops to the tools. I am also thinking of mounting my filter horizontally and making a 90 at the bottom and then mount the dust collector there. I'm going to check with Oneida on that part of my plan.
I hope we will get more pictures, Frank.

Karl

Karl, I don't think mounting the filter horizontally is a good idea. Gravity is your friend here for getting the dust to the collection pan. There would be no way to get a lot of the dust out of the filter if it were laying on it's side. It would eventually fill up or at least the bottom of it would before the back pressure would start building.

[Jim Becker]

I'm with Mike...the filters are designed to work best mounted vertically...cleaning them out properly will be a problem with a horizontal mounting position since you lose gravity. Besides, the fines pan connects directly to the bottom of the filter and is not made to accept duct work.

[Frank Pellow]

Someone (and I profusely apologize that I forget who), notified Oneida of my leaning unit problems and pointed them to this thread.

Yesterday afternoon, I received a call from Oneida and that told me that the support brackets that had been supplied to me were incorrect (they are intended for the 1.5 hp unit). The brackets that I should have used do, indeed, match those in their manual. The lady that I spoke to said that they are going to send me the correct brackets free of charge (and she already knew enough to tell UPS that I did not pay for them so I will not be charged brokerage and tax).

I am not looking forward to the task of remounting the cyclone, but it does give me the excuse that I need to get my friends back and to mount the unit higher on the wall.
The new bracket is here and I am planning to remount the cyclone soon (maybe by myself, maybe with help). Three photos are attached.
(1) the proper mounting bracket for the Oneida 2hp commercial unit
(2) the improper mounting brackets that were originally supplied to me
(3) the motor (hard wired) which is currently dismounted and sitting on a somewhat mobile support stack.

[Jim Dunn]

D#mn Frank looks like Homer Simpson building a ladder, be careful when moving that motor around. I don't suppose that the bottom cabinet is modular units stacked one on top of the other is it?

[Frank Pellow]

D#mn Frank looks like Homer Simpson building a ladder, be careful when moving that motor around. I don't suppose that the bottom cabinet is modular units stacked one on top of the other is it?
The bottom cabinet is a real cabinet with drawers, not modular units. The whole thing is more stable than it looks but, nevertheless, I am being very carefull with it and am not moving the "stack" very much.

[Karl Laustrup]

Thanks Mike and Jim,

I did ask Oneida about the horizontal mount and it was the same answer as yours. I also asked about running the 7" duct all the way to the end of the run, which would be about 20'. No go on that either. 10' run max on 7" before you start to lose suction. Sometimes my brain works too much and things sound really good, but aren't feasible. That's why it's good to be able to have a place like the Creek to ask opinions.

Oh, Frank, that is a novel way to mount the fan ;) in your last picture. Does it work better than the normal mounting? ;) :D

Just Kidding!!!:D

[JayStPeter]

Hmmm, I have the same brackets that you had for my 2HP Commercial cyclone. As I posted earlier, mine leans also. My manual shows those brackets as being correct. Perhaps mine was before they realized the problem and implemented the killer new bracket. It certainly doesn't seem like it's going to come down, so I won't really worry about it. Plus, I cant afford the big Festool stack needed to remove/replace it right now :D .

Jay

[Frank Pellow]

Well, 20 months after I started this thread, I completed my dust controller installation. That is, last weekend , I finally completed building the vented and insulated closet around the unit. And, I am very happy to say that is really reduces the noise :) -much moreso than I had expected it to.

I built 4 different vents into the walls and they appear to working well.

Three pictures are attached:

(1) The closet showing enough of the shop to pinpoint its location.

(2) Looking through the door into the closet. The door is only just big enough that I can get the bin and the filter out (and the motor should I ever need to)

(3) The normal position of the scroll saw when the closet door (insulated of course) is closed.

[Michael Gabbay]

Nice work Frank. 20 months is not bad for a DIY schedule! :)

So how do you like the Oneida? Is it collecting the fine dust along with the big stuff?

[Frank Pellow]

Nice work Frank. 20 months is not bad for a DIY schedule! :)

So how do you like the Oneida? Is it collecting the fine dust along with the big stuff?
Thanks Michael. I have no scientic way of measuring the fine dust being collected, but the air certainly seems to be a LOT cleaner than what it used to be in my old shop.

[John Miliunas]

20 mnths. or whatever...Don't think it matters NOW!!! A fine finish to the project and I'm certain the drop in db level is welcomed!:) Nice install, Frank. I'm sure it will bring you years of pleasure. Now, go make some of that sawdust for the thing to collect!:D :cool:

[Frank Pellow]

20 mnths. or whatever...Don't think it matters NOW!!! A fine finish to the project and I'm certain the drop in db level is welcomed!:) Nice install, Frank. I'm sure it will bring you years of pleasure.

Thanks, John.




Now, go make some of that sawdust for the thing to collect!:D :cool:
I'm doing my best. On Wednesday, I just got back to a "real" woodworking project in the shop for the first time since last March and have already 75% filled the dust collection bin once (that's the level at which I like to dump the bin) and am well on my way to the next dump operation.

I am preparing quarter-sawn white oak boards for a TV cabinet that I am building for and with my friends Terry and Peggy West. We start this weekend and my plan is to do the bulk of the jointing and planing before their arrival Friday night. I am attaching a photo of one of the boards being edge jointed.