Titebond III creeps?

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

I was recently reading in Fine Homebuilding where an article said Titebond III is "prone to creeping". Does anyone know what that means?

[Glen Blanchard]

the gradual, permanent deformation of a body produced by a continued application of heat or stress.

[Pat Germain]

Sounds like an article sponsored by Gorilla Glue.

[Hank Knight]

Jim,

Some glues deform over time and appear to squeeze out of the joint a little, leaving a discernable ridge at the glue line. This is called "creep." I used Tightbond III to laminate my bench top three years ago, and I can now feel a tiny raised ridge along each glue joint, I.E., "creep." What it probably means is that it's time to flatten my bench top. Actually, this doesn't bother me in the slightest on my workbench, but it would be an issue on a finely finished piece of furniture.

Hank

[John Michaels]

I've had an suspicion about TB III also. A couple of table tops that I've made have a very slight ridge at the glue line that wasn't there before, something that developed over time. I attributed it to slight wood movement, but now I'm thinking it might be the glue. How do you know for sure?

What about TB II? Similar results?

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

Jim,

Some glues deform over time and appear to squeeze out of the joint a little, leaving a discernable ridge at the glue line. This is called "creep." I used Tightbond III to laminate my bench top three years ago, and I can now feel a tiny raised ridge along each glue joint, I.E., "creep." What it probably means is that it's time to flatten my bench top. Actually, this doesn't bother me in the slightest on my workbench, but it would be an issue on a finely finished piece of furniture.

Hank

Hank, That's what I suspected it meant....but I've had that happen to cherry table tops that I've glued up over 15 years ago. This using Titebond 2 with an oil finish. After that I went to a polyurethene glue and that eliminated the problem. But recently, I read the glue review in FW that says polyurethene glues are among the weakest glues. And so I switched to Titebond 3 but now hearing it "creeps" as well? The same article said nothing about tiebond 2 creeping, that's why I wondering maybe it meant something else. I'm thinking maybe gorilla glue is the way to go all along, I've not yet have a table top or panel break on me and no "creep".

[jason lambert]

Yea but you can't clean up gorilla glue and it really expands to make a mess. I don't know about you but the way I glue I need someting water soluable I can wipe up.

[Jeff Bratt]

All PVA - yellow or white wood glues - not just Titebond III (or I or II) are subject to creep. If you need a glue that dries hard, you should choose something like epoxy, urea formaldehyde, or resorcinol.

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

Yea but you can't clean up gorilla glue and it really expands to make a mess. I don't know about you but the way I glue I need someting water soluable I can wipe up.
Jason, Don't wipe it up while it's curing. In fact don't even touch it at all unless you have gloves on. After it dries to touch (4-5 hrs) it can be easily scraped with a chisel. But don't let it setup for too long or you'll need a jackhammer.

[Eddie Darby]

If the Gorilla glue works, and your table top isn't supporting an extremely heavy load, then why switch?

Most glues are far stronger than the wood that they hold together, so the wood will break first.

Failure at joints is usually due to other causes such as starved joints, or putting the joint together after the open time has expired. Contaminated surfaces etc.

[Hank Knight]

Jim,

I agree completely with Jeff Bratt. If you need a tough glue that won't creep, use epoxy or plastic resin (ureaformaldehyde) glue. Resorcinol is great and completely waterproof, but it stains terribly - a dark purplish brown color. I think it's primarily for marine and outdoor use. Epoxy is a little messy, but I use it a lot - even for furniture construction. I also like plastic resin glue for furniture. It comes in powder form and you mix it with water. It has a long open time and cures with a dark tan glue line, but it is fairly easy to work with and it's very strong. I dislike Gorilla glue or any other polyuretahne glue. I find them exceedingly messy and I've had joint failure with them (I.E., weak glue joints).

My $.02

Hank

[Stan Urbas]

I was real interested in this thread - never heard of any kind of "creep" described here. I've been using the Original Titebond for years, in cabinet door laminations, table tops, and others, like headboards, and never saw anything like this. I even went want felt the joints in some of the stuff I've made for our own use out of oak, maple, and cherry, but no ridges; just joints are all very smooth. The only place you can tell (by feel) that there is a joint is where in some pieces the grain will raise slightly and in the next it is smooth. But absolutely no indication of a joint ridge. The oldest piece I have around here is about 15 years.

By the way, I really like a water-soluble glue for clean-up. But I don't wash it off the wood. Normally I wait a couple hours and scrape the pieces with an old chisel, then get the rest with the planer. And I haven't seen the planer getting dull from dry glue as much of a problem.

[Curt Harms]

I don't believe so and as long as the piece won't get wet, liquid hide glue is pretty user friendly it seems. It does require longer clamp times than PVA but also has longer open time.

[Jeff Bratt]

Hide glue creep resistance is between that of the PVAs and "hard drying" glues. Most woodworking joints are not subject to continuous shear stress, so creep is not generally an issue - this is why PVA glues are so commonly used. Exceptions are construction techniques using laminations - some curved furniture pieces or load bearing beams. Creep resistant glues are used extensively in these applications.

Did the original article in Fine Homebuilding that mentioned Titebond III say that it creeps more than other glues of this type? Was any testing or comparison performed?

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

All polymer glues creep. When warm they may creep a lot.

The only glue I know of that isn't creepy like that is Resouircinol - and I bet that it creeps too just lots less than all the PVAs tite-bonds expies etc.

The catch is that all polymers creep they just do.

Even ceramics diamonds and metals creep. I was with an Ultra High Vacuum physics lab for a while as the lab engineer. One of the guys there fired up the STM to examine microscopic pores in various super hard materials and the bloody things wobbled right there before your eyes. The holes changed shape as you watched.

Everything is always under some level of cold flow.

[Dennis Peacock]

All PVA - yellow or white wood glues - not just Titebond III (or I or II) are subject to creep. If you need a glue that dries hard, you should choose something like epoxy, urea formaldehyde, or resorcinol.

That's exactly correct. Even the old standby of Hide Glue will not "creep" on you. Except for cutting boards? I've all but abandoned the use of yellow glue of any brand.