Powermatic 66 - USA Made?

[Rob Will]

Is the Powermatic 66 still USA made?

Does Powermatic plan to continue building the 66?

Thanks,

Rob

[John Browne]

Yes, in Tennessee, down the road from the old factory in McMinville. Delta, and all the rest of the Big Brands are made in Asia (Taiwan or PRC).

No one can say how long they will make it--as long as there is a profitable market, I guess.

[Dana Vogel]

I was told by a tool distributor in Nashville who deal directly with Powermatic/Jet that the 66 will be discontinued and be replaced by a PM**** model made in Taiwan. Also all manufacturing in the USA will be move to Taiwan. So get your 66 now if you want an American made saw.

[Rod Sheridan]

Yes, in Tennessee, down the road from the old factory in McMinville. Delta, and all the rest of the Big Brands are made in Asia (Taiwan or PRC).

No one can say how long they will make it--as long as there is a profitable market, I guess.

General is still made in Canada......Rod.

[Ben Martin]

Yes, in Tennessee, down the road from the old factory in McMinville. Delta, and all the rest of the Big Brands are made in Asia (Taiwan or PRC).

No one can say how long they will make it--as long as there is a profitable market, I guess.

Hmm, I was watching an episode of "Cool Tools" on DIY network last week and they toured the Unisaw factory in Alabama or Tennessee, I forgot where, but nonetheless, it was in the USA. SO, unless that show was very old (which it wasn't reconizably old) the Unisaw is still made in the USA....

[Steven Wilson]

Rob, the castings haven't been made in the USA for a few years now. Assembly is still done in the USA. If you want a USA made tablesaw with well seasoned castings forged in the USA you'll need to buy a Northfield.

[Bob Feeser]

When I bought my PM66 in 2004 I was told by the Powermatic rep that they were losing money on every saw. They also explained to me that the workers were angry at losing their jobs overseas. Not that I blame them, but they are taking it out on the saw. The engineering is superb, the parts are magnificent, the assembly sucks. I had 7 major reassembly problems that had to be done. Things such as the plate they weld to the top of the cabinet, wasn't even eyeball close to square. This is a plate that the enlongated holes are in that the top mount bolts slide through. That way you can adjust the top to get the miter slot parallel to the blade. That was impossible with how far off they assembled it. I had to remove the top, and drill/enlongate the holes, just to be able to set it properly. That is just one thing. Without going into a dissertation on reassembly for the PM66, I also had to remove the rule for the bevel indicator angle, and reposition it and redrill, and install. The insert was rocking in the slot, so that had to be flattened with a rubber hammer. I could go on.
I do want you to understand, that if I had to buy another one, I would do it, just expect to do a certain amount of rebuilding of the saw. All told, I still think it is either the best, or one of the best considering the Saw Stop is out there.
I bought PM 8" jointer made in Taiwan, and the PM Hollow Chisel Mortiser station made in Taiwan, and they came right out of the box, perfectly square, and well assembled. With all of that heavy cast iron, I couldn't imagine anything more substantial or well made. I did have a problem with some rust on the top of the jointer under the cosmolene. A splash of moisture must have got to it before they protected it. I was able to sand it out with a ROS and finer grits, and Amazon rewarded me with a PM side table size mobile base for pennies on the dollar. By the way the jointer was $1100 and it was $1800 prior to that, and Powermatic is now making money on it too.
I know this is all controversial stuff, considering losing jobs right now is a problem, but I do have to tell you what happened. First we realize what the problem is and then we fix it. Many Creekers have mentioned they would rather buy something built over here and pay a little more for it, then go for an overseas product. Well how about our guys help out a little and give them a product that is worth hoping for. Sorry but they butchered the assembly of my saw, and I am not the only one. Check out the reviews in Amazon, most of them had to redrill, relaign etc. I know that some adjustments are always necessary when buying big iron, but these things were outright screw you. Then they enclosed the check sheet that had initials next to every adjustment being set up and checked. All items were initialed, like the 45 degree bevel stop was checked, and it was about 50 degrees, etc. It was impossible to get the blade to not only get parallel to the miter, you also couldn't tilt it to a 45 and clear the saw cast iron top. Someone not knowing, could have tilted it, and started the motor, and chewed up the slot and the blade. C'mon guys unless we get together and get this worked out, even the 66 is going bye bye. The PM rep said that a new employee totally unskilled, starting out sweeping the floors, starts at 20 per hour. I am not against Unions, but in this case, this is reverse discrimination. Net result, the company has to lose money on every saw.
I could go into my pep rally, about how we can rekindle the American spirit, and not listen to the naysayers, ....

[Mike Gabbay]

I was told by a local tool dealer that the PM66 is not entirely made in the US anymore. There are parts (cabinet and some electronics including motor) that are being made overseas and assembled in the US.

He recommended the 2000 over the 66 and even the General. He sells General, PM, and Steel City.

[Mike Spanbauer]

I actually read from another site this morning that the last PM66 rolled off the line last week. There was no fanfare as PM doesn't really want to "market" this to the world.

I don't know who the source was exactly, but it would be disappointing if this were true.

/guards '84 PM66 with a shotgun :P

mike

[David DeCristoforo]

"Rob, the castings haven't been made in the USA for a few years now..."

In 1988 I was working in a shop and the owner wanted to buy a large shaper. He had narrowed it down to two machines, a PM and a "Master Machinery" shaper made in Taiwan. I went with him to look at the machines and they were exactly the same! The PM did have a Baldor motor and "American branded" switch and starter. But everything else about the two machines was identical. It was very obvious that the major components came from the same factory.

The sad truth is that we have completely decimated our "manufacturing sector" in the attempt to keep costs down and profits high. I really feel that we are all to blame. It's not just the manufacturers because they would never resort to these tactics if we refused to buy the products. We are as much to blame as the manufacturers. How many of us are really willing to spend "twice the price" for a machine (or anything else for that matter) simply because it has "Made in America" stamped on it? Until we are, I'm afraid we are not going to see American made products re-emerge as the "gold standard" they once were.

YM

[Lance Norris]

The sad truth is that we have completely decimated our "manufacturing sector" in the attempt to keep costs down and profits high. I really feel that we are all to blame. It's not just the manufacturers because they would never resort to these tactics if we refused to buy the products. We are as much to blame as the manufacturers. How many of us are really willing to spend "twice the price" for a machine (or anything else for that matter) simply because it has "Made in America" stamped on it? Until we are, I'm afraid we are not going to see American made products re-emerge as the "gold standard" they once were.

YM

Id like to know how we are the problem here. We had nothing to do with the movement of manufacturing overseas. Its corporate greed and the bottom line. We didnt demand cheaper priced products. I lost my job as a result of outsourcing. You better read the TOS here at the Creek about posting political argument's.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/terms.php

[Rod Sheridan]

Lance, I'm sorry to hear about your loss of employment due to outsourcing, however in my opinion, Yoshikuni is correct.

Suppliers sell us what we want to buy, when we buy a Delta piece of machinery, or General International, we are purchasing imported machinery.

When I purchase General machinery, I'm purchasing a locally manufactured piece of machinery.

Yes the General costs much more than the Delta, General International, Steel City etc, however you are obtaining a higher quality product. My basement mostly contains General machinery because I am willing to pay the premium.

If we all voted with our dollars and purchased locally manufactured machinery, the jobs would stay here, however we all want everything cheaper, even if unfortunately, we damage our local and national economy.

That said, after all the Canadian flag waving, I spent money at the Felder booth yesterday on a planer/jointer which is an imported machine for Canada. In this case it wasn't cost, it was the fact that there wasn't a Canadian (or American) manufacturer of the machine.

I hope you are able to find an equivalent job to the one you lost, best regards, Rod.

[Stan Welborn]

Id like to know how we are the problem here. We had nothing to do with the movement of manufacturing overseas. Its corporate greed and the bottom line. We didnt demand cheaper priced products. I lost my job as a result of outsourcing. You better read the TOS here at the Creek about posting political argument's.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/terms.php


Yeah, I guess companies could just close the doors, if they can't be profitable, instead of going overseas. Either way, the jobs are lost.

I like it here and have had enough posts edited, so I'll refrain from speaking my mind about labor.

[Terre Hooks]

There are no more PM 66's being manufactured or assembled.

[David DeCristoforo]

" You better read the TOS here at the Creek about posting political argument's. "

So sorry...this was not my intent. Please accept my apologies....

YM

[Travis Gauger]

Well I have $.02 for this one. I work for a company that owns, operates, and manages over 80 foundries worldwide. I Work for our north american grey and ductile iron side. We make castings globally for most of the machinery manufacturers. Within the foundry industry in america, it isn't about profits and making millions, it's about keeping your doors open long enough to outlive your competitors. We have machine manufacturers that purposefully open up tolerances in order to hit price points. They are then allowed to manufacture parts on older, worn out equipment with less dimensional stability. They are even requesting cheaper grades of iron. Most all of the PM66 Iron is poured off shore. The trunion may be the only exception. I'm not sure where the machining and assembly take place.

[Rob Will]

Thanks for the input guys.
FWIW, I don't think this is political providing that we don't assign blame to one party or the other (JMHO). Actually, the discussion regarding what we buy, what it costs to produce, and machine tool quality standards is exactly what we need to know about. I think this is very relevant information.

Personally, I already own a 1994 model PM74A table saw. I'm thinking about adding another 66, 72 or 74 to use as a second saw.

Any suggestions as to what year models of these Powermatic saws are of good quality and will match my "Gold" 74A?

Rob

[Mike Spanbauer]

Ah, the gold 2 shade.

You've only 2 years to pick from according to OWWM ('94 & '95)

http://wiki.owwm.com/ow.asp?PaintColors%2FPowermatic

Between those I doubt you'll find many differences. A 74A? That's a beast :)

mike

[Carroll Courtney]

Lance,hope you found another job.I've been there.Do ya'll think that the CEO,and mangement were not making a profit?They just move oversea's cause they can make a bigger profit,no breaks,no insurance,no vaca, just cheap labor!!!

[Bob Feeser]

I love the US, I love the 66. What the PM rep told me was that they were selling the 8" jointer for $1800 and losing money, and now they are selling the same jointer for $1100 made overseas, and making a profit. I think the labor rate is only about .50 cents per hour over there. He claimed that they were being made to PM spec's, and if you choose the right manufacturer, and post a PM employee over there to oversee production, you can get decent quality. I am only telling you what he said, I am not advocating any buying positions. Myself personally I am wiling to pay some more for the USA product, but 1800 instead of 1100, after getting my PM66 with hate assembly written all over it, I didn't hesitate to buy the $1100 jointer.
Let's reflect on this subject a little. I remember hearing about a steel plant, that was getting paid X amount of dollars to there employees. Then the owner said, look, your pay is guaranteed, but if you produce twice as much product of the same quality, I will double your pay. The plant produced 3 or 4 times what they used to produce. Something like that has to happen here.
Another interesting example is Harley Davidson. They had something like a 40 or 50 percent defect rate. Everyone knew from there inception, that you don't go for long road trips on one. The Japanese bikes came along, and although not as substantial, they gave you better reliability. It was not until Harley Davidson finally lost it, that a grass roots effort by their empolyees taking over the company under a new ownership group, that they got there stuff in order, and made the best darn motorcycle with a reliability record defect rate in the low single digits.
If our guys are given a chance to dream, and a say as to what is going on, instead of the war between management and employees, there isn't anything we can't accomplish.
I think if our guys would work hard at PM, making the best equipment, and do it in such a way that money is not wasted, the difference in price between the machines might not be that great, and many of us would be glad to pay the difference. Then give the marketplace a choice. They guy who is an apprentice, sweeping the floors, has to go back to making an apprentice salary. We have to be competitive.
This is not political. I am learning something from what has been said in this thread. Please let cooler heads prevail. Only by admitting there is a problem, can we get back to basics and solve the problem.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Myself personally I am wiling to pay some more for the USA product, but 1800 instead of 1100...."

That's the thing. I would gladly (Ok maybe not "gladly" but still...) pay the dif if it meant that I was:

A) Buying the "best quality" machine
B) Supporting American industry.

If other countries had the same standards so that the "playing field" was "level" as mentioned by Carroll, this would be a "no brainer".

YM

[Peter Quinn]

This thread is about PM66, no? When I got mine 4+- years ago they spared no expense in American flags, its covered in them. It has a Baldor motor stamped MADE IN USA in bigger letters than anything else on it. More importantly it arrived well crated and accurate, has stayed that way since. I did not buy it because it was made here, I bought it because it was well designed and well made. I have plans to be buried in it if my son doesn't want it when I go. I feel bad for anybody that got a substandard machine from PM but I didn't, and believe me I checked! Is mine a collectors item now?

You won't catch me discussing politics here, or almost anywhere, its an ugly topic. Economic history however, is another matter. Capatilism is a rough sport not for the faint of heart. This great nation was founded by people trying to make a buck (Dutch, English, France, Spain) We are the worlds bastion of free market capitalism and we have the scars to prove it.

Being from a poor New England former textile town you won't find me crying for the loss of manufacturing jobs in this country....here in New England we lost most of ours a long time ago in an era when that's just the way it was, and I don't recall anyone drowing in the insuing river of tears. We still have remnants of a defense industry that built up after WWII, but it seems thats going too. You find machinists who can produce aircraft grade work running the midnight shift at Taco Bell! You retrain, you adjust, it hurts, you move on. I know its harsh on a personal level, but rest assured if the world last long enough we will reach international wage parity and no more jobs will be lost.:D:D

Yoshikuni is on the money in my book. Corporations are like single purpose headless monsters. They care about shareholders, they care about profits, they care about the bottom line. Keep cost low, charge as much as you can, make the most money. Basic economics. They treat employes as a means to an end. Make it here, make it there, who cares.

Manufacturers will not produce products for very long that they can not sell. When consumers on the agregate cease to place a tangible value on premium quality and country of origin in manufacturing then corporations adjust immediately. Every guy excited about how much cheaper his grizzly (or any other chinese machine) was than my PM66, and especially the guy real excited because he could then buy another machine at the same time while I waited 3 years to save for my used Delta's (which incidentally also have large flags on them) is in fact to blame for this problem. At least in large part. Doesn't mean your a bad person, doesn't really mean anything.

If we all walked in to our local machinery supplier and said "I'm not here to buy some ok, almost decent will get it done cheap on a budget chinese junk, I want a solid machine well made for a lifetime in the USA or I'm leaving" and stuck to that, things would change. But we as individuals simply don't do that. We all feel bad and say sorry when some guy looses his job, but when it comes time to satisfy our tool desires its all bang for the buck. Half the posts on the site are about small shops struggling to buy the best machines they can afford to do what they love, work wood.

When the Japanese first entered our markets after WWII they sold trinkets and junk. Anything they could. But they are smart, hardworking, industrious people with a long tradition of dedication to quality who had a plan. I think we all know the rest of that story.

The first tools I saw from China were junk. Junk. Junk. They still make lots of junk, but they also make very good things now too that rival our own brands. And many American brands are now made there anyways. But we still design/engineer them right?

Scary thing is the Chinese are starting to reach a point of development where they are not content to manufacture goods for overseas companies anymore. Increasingly they want to make and market their own brands and make money on both ends of the transaction. They are setting themselves up to be world leaders in manufacturing, they are becoming corporate! China has already experienced increasing wage pressure forcing some cheap manufacturing to move elsewhere, perhaps Vietnam or Lao's, maybe Peru?

I am hopeful my son will still be able to buy a Delta or Powermatic in 20 years no matter where its made. Maybe they'll sell their names to some overseas company like Oliver and make money that way? Either way we all make or choices and I have made mine. You won't catch me making any excuses for them.

[Dan Racette]

There are so many nuances and directions that this thread could take, and we all need to be careful. Some of us can talk from the standpoint of language and pride, and what we'd like to support with our purchases. Others, like Lance, have been burdened with harsh realities of overseas outsourcing and changes in the business for various reasons.

I think we need to go back to the early 80's when the legalities of the language was changed so the "made in America" was allowed to include a much wider variety of things to market to consumers.

I cite the "born in america again" campaign that Chrysler launched for their line of minivans. It bore a great deal of lawsuits that resulted in them being ok to say that, even though the minivans were made in "north america" not the United States of America.

Since the 80's "Made" has now come to include: "Assembled" "Distrubuted" "Warehoused" and other technicalities to get then distinction. It is a marketing phrase to pull at your heartstrings. I don't care that it is used as a marketing phrase, but I am not ignorant to it being done so either.

Please be careful about considering "where" something is "made" as part of your consideration. If you want my advice, you should go where you want to make the most impact. Do you want to vote with your dollars to line the pockets of labor of a certain workforce that you care for, or a certain business ownership group that you care for, then do so? I, for one, try to vote with my dollars for smaller, family owned businesses. I really like it when I can actually visit these businesses too. Woodworking is a wonderful field where you can still do that, because one still needs wood, and that usually means face-to-face contact in a lot of cases. Sharpening, too. The internet is providing more means to keep small businesses growing, without that face to face contact, but still keeping the small business owner in mind, which I find a great thing.

I have been outsourced. I have had to work to outsource others. I have had to work with others to retool their skills to prevent them from being outsourced. My father has worked with government officials to negotiate deals with them and businessmen to prevent large amounts of peoples from being outsourced and "closing" a whole town. Global economics change everything. They are harsh.

Let's be careful and considerate.

dan

[David DeCristoforo]

"...language was changed so the "made in America" was allowed to include a much wider variety of things..."

Too true. The same thing happened in many areas. Like how "organic" and "natural" are defined. These supposedly "definitive" terms are far more "euphemistic" now. The big question, as I see it is "Are American workers making the product here in America using parts made here in America?" If the answer is "No" the "Made in America" claim, or any variation thereof, should not be allowed. As Dan rightly points out, we are not stupid. It's not like we don't see this stuff. Most of us are insulted by the twisting and distorting of terms to suggest that something is one way when it is obviously not. I am surprised that this thread has not completely melted down because this is an issue that many have very strong feelings about.

YM

YM

[Tim Marks]

I really feel that we are all to blame. It's not just the manufacturers because they would never resort to these tactics if we refused to buy the products.
While it would be nice to buy Made in the USA, the truth is that I would have never got into this hobby if I had to pay the type of prices that machinery used to go for before it started being manufactured offshore. What used to be the standard home shop: a rinky-dink 8" or 10" TS, a small 4" jointer, a wobbly 10" BS, etc. That was the type of equipment within the reach of the hobbyist.

It is not a matter of insisting on only "Buying American"; for many, the influx of Asian machinery was the only way that they could have ever afforded to get into this hobby.

Instead of lamenting the shifting of machining jobs offshore and pointing fingers at each other for making choices with our pocketbooks, we should look forward and look for ways to turn the global economy to our advantage, similar to how our industrialization during WWII led us to become a world wide production leader after the war.

We should be dscussing ways to ensure that our kids are not relegated to low paying service jobs, but have the training and hands-on skills to build an automobile from a chunk of metal. I am doing everything I can to ensure that my 5 yo can build cabinets, TIG/MIG weld, machine metal and use computers so he has a strong future even if he doesn't become an engineer like his old man.

[Steven DeMars]

"Myself personally I am wiling to pay some more for the USA product, but 1800 instead of 1100...."


Don't worry, with our dollar headed south we will soon be paying $1,800.00 for a $1,000.00 saw . . . . :-) and will still be made in China . . .

[Dave Lehnert]

Stores sells what people buy. Take any Saturday to buy hand tools. Go to Sears (most made in the USA) and go to Harbor Freight. (made over seas) Sears you can go in and get what you want and not fight a crowd. HF is packed with people. 4 registers open and you are 6-8 people deep in line. SOOOOOOOOO what do people want?

[David DeCristoforo]

"We should be dscussing ways to ensure that our kids are not relegated to low paying service jobs..."

I'm with you on that Tim. We really do need to address the "issue" of the idea of actually working for a living being viewed as a "bad thing". So many young people have been raised in an environment in which the only "honorable" way to make a living is to be the guy who writes the "next big game program" or who hits it big in the stock market. Most of the members of this forum understand the satisfaction and sense of "self worth" one gets from making something. But this has become so devalued now that it's only seen as a path for those of "low intelligence" or who are so unfortunate as to have no other good options. Turning this around is going to take a lot of work and a major shift in what we value. Anyway...tomorrow no "politics"...oh, no, never mind..."primaries" tomorrow... OK, no politics on Wednesday....

YM

Anyway, some discussion....

[Bob Feeser]

"Myself personally I am wiling to pay some more for the USA product, but 1800 instead of 1100...."


Don't worry, with our dollar headed south we will soon be paying $1,800.00 for a $1,000.00 saw . . . . :-) and will still be made in China . . .

Wow you have hit on a really big point here, well made. I will not get political here, simply talk about the value of the dollar. A Troy ounce of gold is over 99% pure gold. It is the same today as it was yesterday. It is an intrinsic value, it has worth in itself. When we say that the price of gold has gone up, in reality golds true intrinsic value has not changed, the amount of dollars to buy it has. The US dollar is now worth .658 cents for every Euro dollar. It used to be the other way around. When the US dollar buys a piece of equipment, or a barrel of oil, or a troy ounce of gold, it is buying only 33% of what it used to buy. Let's do the math. What is 322.1 divided by 983.50=33%. Considering the Euro used to be as low in valuation next to the US dollar as the US dollar is now low in valuation to the Euro, you can see that it really has lost 67% of it's value. Read on.
http://www.kitco.com/LFgif/au1825nyb.gif

So what devalues the dollar. This is where I have to skate a very narrow line in order to not be political at all. I will only speak in economic terms. Supply side economics is a beautiful realization, in that every time we spend a dollar, it changes hands. Someone buys some cabinets, and we take that money, and buy some wood from the sawyer, and he takes that dollar and goes to the food store and buys some food, and the chain goes on. So every time the dollar changes hands it produces goods, taxes, jobs etc. Paul Samuelson won a Nobel Peace prize in the early 70's or so, when he wrote a book on economics, covering supply side economics. Sounds like a great plan, and it does work. The problem is that when someone uses supply side economics as an excuse to waste large sums of money, especially for selfish purposes, and claims that it will stimulate the economy, and produce more taxes, jobs etc., and pay for itself. Well we learned in the 80's it doesn't work. Powerful deficits are created. In the 90's we practiced a new twist, and it was called fiscal responsibility. The theory being that if we balance the budget, the dollar valuation will go up, and that will have a ripple effect on the rest of the economy, and it will boom. Boy did it work. What did Greenspan call it? "Irrational exuberance" So combining the natural effect of supply side economics, and not robbing the til, leads to true abundance and security.
So the essential lesson here is that if we do not practice fiscal responsiblity, by not spending more then we are bringing in is what raises the value of the US dollar, or anyones dollar for that matter.
A long time ago, the dollar was based on gold, a gold certificate, then we went to silver certificates, I still have a few, and then we went to Federal Reserve Note, which is only worth what the federal reserve value is worth.
Let me ask you a question, if a company was going down, incurring large amounts of debt, would you be buying stock in that company. Or let me ask you the opposite question, if a company was going crazy with making profits, they were actually making a surplus, how much would the dollar, or value of the company be then.
I riled against this when there was a change in economic approach, people got mad at me and said I was unpatriotic. I have sat and watched it all unfold. It is ashame. You think that is ashame, I will express this in words that will keep it from being political. Our biggest enemy released a video to the world saying that he will defeat us the same way he defeated Russia and that is to bankrupt us. I have to stop here. I love this country, born and raised here. It is time to work smart. We have a HUGe hill to climb with a 10 trillion dollar debt. (soon to be) if interest rates go to 10% due to inflation, and we cover our loans with new loans, 10% of 10 trillion is 1 trillion per year just for interest. How much do we collect per year total in taxes? I can't find the actual numbers right now searching in Google, but I recall that it was either 1.9, or 2.9 trillion.
Every time the dollar falls the price of a barrel of oil hits a new high. Funny how that happens. It takes more US dollars to buy the same barrel of oil. Meanwhile the Euro is buying that same barrel of oil for less.
You know I saw the CEO of Joanna Fabrics on CNBC, and they asked him what was the secret of his turn around story. The company was losing money, their stock hit 4 dollars per share, when it used to be $25 per share. Suddenly it went back to $25, so they asked him what the secret was. I will never forget what the CEO said. He said, "First we have to get out of the denial phase. We have to admit there is a problem. Then we have to get back to basics, and solve the problem." Yeah that is what we have to do. Let's not fix the blame, let's fix the problem. Start practicing fiscal responsibility. And we thought the housing crisis was bad...

[Rob Will]

Start practicing fiscal responsibility.

That was very interesting Bob, thanks for all the work you put into that.

All of this has me thinking.......if we export our manufacturing base thus building the economies of other nations........and those nations depend on a strong dollar being able to buy their goods........but the dollar is weak....

Then eventually we find ourselves unable to purchase the imported goods?

So to keep this on topic, will a weak dollar help or hurt our ability to produce tools in the U.S.? In a sense, the weak dollar makes foreign goods more expensive. On the other hand, inflation increases costs to domestic industry.

As a side note to all of this, do you get the feeling that we paid little attention when we were importing trinkets, plastic toys and ladies purses - but when we start talking about big ticket items like machine tools that potentially last a lifetime, we suddenly worry about where it was made?

I think we all have one thing in common, we are proud of our machine tools. It is interesting to see where the threshold is that causes us to start thinking about where it was made.

Rob

[Rob Will]

"We should be dscussing ways to ensure that our kids are not relegated to low paying service jobs..."

I'm with you on that Tim. We really do need to address the "issue" of the idea of actually working for a living being viewed as a "bad thing". So many young people have been raised in an environment in which the only "honorable" way to make a living is to be the guy who writes the "next big game program" or who hits it big in the stock market. Most of the members of this forum understand the satisfaction and sense of "self worth" one gets from making something. But this has become so devalued now that it's only seen as a path for those of "low intelligence" or who are so unfortunate as to have no other good options. Turning this around is going to take a lot of work and a major shift in what we value. Anyway...tomorrow no "politics"...oh, no, never mind..."primaries" tomorrow... OK, no politics on Wednesday....YM
Anyway, some discussion....

This sort of goes back to the discussions we have had about the decline of shop classes in schools. Could it be that shop class was actually teaching more than "shop skills"? Could it be that shop class was teaching personal responsibility and a can-do attitude? Could it be that individual accomplishment, individual ownership, and pride in one's work has always been the real backbone of our economy?

Rob

[John Browne]

Yeah, I guess companies could just close the doors, if they can't be profitable, instead of going overseas. Either way, the jobs are lost.

I like it here and have had enough posts edited, so I'll refrain from speaking my mind about labor.

Heard the other day that many factories in Southern China are closing due to high labor costs--the owners are moving to Vietnam or other "cheap labor" countries throwing the Chinese out of work. The only guys making money there right now are the salvage companies dismantling the factories!

I have some great tools in my shop--made in the USA, and China, and Taiwan, and Japan, and Germany. They're all great, that's what they have in common. Frankly I don't give a fig where they're made, as long as they're good value (ie quality for the money). I'm really sorry to hear when people's jobs move overseas--probably sometimes it's avoidable, sometimes not. But until America can build a competitive product at a competitive price we'll continue to see this trend. Hey, we still lead the world in rap music:D

[Rob Will]

Heard the other day that many factories in Southern China are closing due to high labor costs--the owners are moving to Vietnam or other "cheap labor" countries throwing the Chinese out of work. The only guys making money there right now are the salvage companies dismantling the factories!

I have some great tools in my shop--made in the USA, and China, and Taiwan, and Japan, and Germany. They're all great, that's what they have in common. Frankly I don't give a fig where they're made, as long as they're good value (ie quality for the money). I'm really sorry to hear when people's jobs move overseas--probably sometimes it's avoidable, sometimes not. But until America can build a competitive product at a competitive price we'll continue to see this trend. Hey, we still lead the world in rap music:D

I guess I'll have to keep my eyes open for a Chinese bandsaw comparable to my Moak 36:rolleyes:.

Rob

[Richard Wagner]

SawStop _ Made in the USA???

[John Thompson]

The Industrial Sawstop is made by Geetech in Taiwan. The PCS is made by another plant and if I remember from what I was told at IWF in 2007 it is made in China....

[Ben West]

Wow, this thread has gone in lots of directions.

Perhaps the biggest problem with buying American these days is that you do not necessarily get better quality. Yes, in the old days, USA-made stuff was superior to anything made in China or Taiwan. Not so today.

Case in point: I think most people would agree that the new Unisaw, the PM2000, and the SawStop Industrial are all of comparable quality. Without debating the fine points of each saw, they each are top-of-the-line, lifetime purchase cabinet saws. The SawStop and PM2000 are made in Taiwan, and the Unisaw is made in the USA.

Where something is made does not necessarily denote quality anymore, and that is a huge challenge for American manufacturing.

[Hugh Jardon]

Are people wanting to buy American because they think it is better quality, or because they want to support American workers?

It grates me when I see people offering advice like "OK, your saw's not running at full power, have you checked the extension cord? Make sure you buy a USA-made 12ga cable". As long as the cord is well made, UL-listed (which it would have to be anyway), and IS 12ga, what does it matter where it was made from a functional standpoint? Do you want one made in Ohio for $30 or the one made in China for $10? Even better, buy the Chinese one, and make a $20 donation to an American charity.

"Made FOR the USA" means big and cheap. If you want quality, Germany or Switzerland are the go-to guys.

[Karl Brogger]

If you want quality, Germany or Switzerland are the go-to guys.

I'll do the tasters test on anything made in the EU with a Northfield.

Is Oliver still around?

[Chuck Wintle]

General is still made in Canada......Rod.

The problem is they are hugely expensive though....but a very nice well made saw for those with a good budget. :D

[Steve Orbine]

I personally am sick of buying Asian goods which most often fail and end up in our landfills, while the national debt rises. With that said, it seems the appetite for a quality product is insufficient to support the scale of production needed to make economic sense. As demand declines, price rises and demise becomes inevitable. Take a look at Hardinge, a machine tool manufacturer located in Elmira, New York. Hardinge formerly built the famous HLV-H lathe, arguably the worlds finest tool room lathe (alongside the Monarch 10EE). As price rose, demand dwindled, and price rose further. The last HLV-H lathes cost over $50,000, and while a few were sold, it was eventually discontinued. Plenty of manual lathes are still built, even HLV-H knockoffs, but no more of the real thing.

So I agree that we have ourselves (as a whole nation, not SMC'ers of course) to blame, but it's hard at this point for a hobbyist to justify the extreme costs of a high end Euro-machine as compared to Asian semi-junk. There is nothing made in USA to even consider. Even in the 80's and 90's there was plenty of 'hate assembly' built into Made in USA machines.

As far as the Asian PM66, Powermatic has been manufacturing in Taiwan for 20 years. (Final assembly in the US does not constitute Made in USA in my book.) But they do seem to make a pretty good product, and they are positioned at the top of the Asian heap. I've bought some Powermatic, and so far so good. Had there been a Made in USA option I certainly would have looked at it.

[Rod Sheridan]

The problem is they are hugely expensive though....but a very nice well made saw for those with a good budget. :D

Charles, I absolutely agree, and absolutely disagree.

There, how's that for a stand?:D

I agree that if you look at the price of the 650 saw for example, it's a lot more money than the lowest priced import.

If you look however at the saw quality, and performance, couple it with a wish to keep jobs in Canada, it's a good price.

I think it has probably become less expensive than it was 20 years ago, compared to my income.

I guess I'm changing my buying habits as I get older, and have more concern for our future, and more disposable income.

That of course supports your comment, and when I was younger, raising a family etc, price was often a major factor.

Regards, Rod.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Chevy Vega. Ford Fairmont. Plymouth Reliant. Cadillac Cimmaron.
Datsun 810. Nissan Maxima. Accura Legend. BMW5xx.

Quick Quiz: Which list is where my money went? What are the odds I will switch my sourcing decisions after 30 years?

"But wait - you should try our new stuff. It's great." Good luck and Godspeed is my reply.

Country of origin has nothing to do with quality, in and of itself. "Bang for the buck" could mean good value, or Pinto, or Explorer on Firestones, or a Camry at Warp 4 heading for the trees.

I don't know, and I don't care, where my Uni, PM60, Delta DC-380 were made. They have been working great for > 10 years, which is why I bought them. Isolationist policies - whether economic or political - eventually and always fail.

[Rod Sheridan]

Isolationist policies - whether economic or political - eventually and always fail.


If they're legislated, I agree.

If they're personal they're very effective, such as the "Buy Local" promotions for food purchases.

Regards, Rod.

[Rob Steffeck]

The problem is they are hugely expensive though....but a very nice well made saw for those with a good budget. :D

Well, I guess it would depend on what you are comparing it to. I didn't find that to be true with my comparisons. My General 650 was cheaper than the SawStop PCS and new Unisaw. It was right around the same price as the PM2000 that I initially ordered, but couldn't get.

[Kent A Bathurst]

If they're legislated, I agree.

If they're personal they're very effective, such as the "Buy Local" promotions for food purchases.

Regards, Rod.

Rod - I absolutely agree - was referencing "international". But it all kinda applies at a local level too - Local food purchases also have the benefit that they generally deliver fresher, better quality product due to elimination of long-distance transport of perishable items. In many cases, they are the "manufacturers" selling to the consumer face-to-face or only one step removed, and the feedback loop is virtually instantaneous - failure to deliver a quality product at a fair price means you are gone right now, and the (local) competition gains that business. Spring is here, and the local Saturday "street markets" are about to open up again. Yuuummmm!!! The very good large supermarket is about to lose that business for the season - again. Picked-this-morning sweet corn and tangy radishes. Mothers milk.

The flip side is the hue and cry raised here (don't know about your side of the border) when a WalMart opens up - they "drive small businesses out". How in the world could that happen? Because consumers shift their patronage. Why? Well, gosh.....let me think....... Maybe we should use zoning permits to keep WalMart out? Nope - Let people use their pockets to make that decision - don't buy there, they'll close it down faster than they put it up. Their pay scale is too low? Excellent point - Don't work there - they'll close it down. Predatory practices - puh-lease. They buy from - gulp - China? See previous thoughts re: isolationist international economic policy - and Harding v. Treaty of Versaille, and the Immigration Quota Act of 1921 - That all worked out very well in the end, didn't it (especially the English language literacy test)? They encourage the exploitation of workers in other countries? I am actually very sympathetic to this specific argument, but I haven't figured out how witholding the business improves the life of those workers - zero income cannot be better than a lousy job - that issue is tough to unravel, other than with increased demand causing a labor shortage that drives up demand for a scarce resource (workers) and increases wages - so maybe we should be buying even more from them? Tough one - very tough.

The BORG 1.5 miles away gets little of my business, because I like and will pay for the convenience (I can park 20m from the front door) and service (over-staffed, almost) of the hardware store nearby. Their business model ensures success and longevity. I "buy local" from a small(er) store, because they are selling what I want to buy, at a "quality" (broadly defined) and price that I think is very fair.

My goat gets gotten with things like "don't buy Taiwan PM stuff." I won't anymore - I already did - and it will last my lifetime.

Whew. Rant over. NCAA tournament on TV - gotta go do something REALLY important - lay on the couch.

[Chuck Wintle]

Well, I guess it would depend on what you are comparing it to. I didn't find that to be true with my comparisons. My General 650 was cheaper than the SawStop PCS and new Unisaw. It was right around the same price as the PM2000 that I initially ordered, but couldn't get.

true but they are quite a bit more than the standard asian offering. That said the General name is an assurance of quality and long life. :D

[Richard Wagner]

I was phishing for an explanation of why the SawStop is not more expensive. I think I got the answer. Being built in Taiwan and China, I now wonder why it is not less expensive.

[Paul Early]

I was phishing for an explanation of why the SawStop is not more expensive. I think I got the answer. Being built in Taiwan and China, I now wonder why it is not less expensive.

Hey Richard, In my opinion, SawStop is more expensive because #1 they are greedy too. The saw, according to claims made by the company, is built to tighter tolerances and better materials than all other comparable saws. That, notwithstanding, the safety device is where they get you. They feel that people that want to be safe when they woodwork should pay a hefty premium. Surely, in all the years that the SS has been out, the R&D is close to being recouped.

SawStop tried to get the government to force all other manufacturers to use their safety blade system. The government said no. Personally, I think that everyone should use it. Add the cost of the blade guard and move on. Safety should be paramount to manufacturers when the technology is there. Perhaps this liability case of the ryobi table saw will bring a little heat to the table even if that guy was, allegedly, not using the saw appropriately. Even when the saw is used inappropriately, the SawStop would still trigger. Sawstop could learn from the Germans, when Mercedes Benz came up with an advancement in seat belts and the manufacture of a safer seat, they shared that technology with all the other automakers. Should SawStop share and not make anything off the deal? No, but, they could rethink the price structure to bring safe sawing to the masses. In the process they would make a great deal of money just in the cartridges and giving the technology to the other saw manufacturers. The boost in sales would take SawStop to a whole other level. After all, once the tech for the SawStop system was created, they are now not innovating, they are maintaining. They never reinvented the saw, just the safety of it.

[Van Huskey]

I agree that if you look at the price of the 650 saw for example, it's a lot more money than the lowest priced import.

If you look however at the saw quality, and performance,
Regards, Rod.


Rod the only problem with the 650 is it is a 20th century saw (even just considering NA cabinet saws). The PM, Uni and SS saws appear to be at least equal in quality and have it beat in multiple areas in terms of features. In the end buy _______ (insert your country of choice) is not only difficult but rather expensive. Just like many things most people don't put there money where their mouth is, myself included except I have pretty much given up on buy American. I buy each item based on quality and price with little regard anymoer to country of origin. Sad really.

[John Coloccia]

Now for the really important question: When did David change his name to Yoshikuni Masato, and why does it seem like I'm the only one that's noticed.

[Mark Major]

Now for the really important question: When did David change his name to Yoshikuni Masato, and why does it seem like I'm the only one that's noticed.


:confused: LOL John; I did notice that too; figured David..errr Yoshikuni just decided to go international :D. Or, because this was a resurrected thread, something got screwed up archiving the thread. Personally, I hope it's the former; always good to see a forumite broaden their horizons. ;)