Talk to me about planer cutter heads......

[Dennis Peacock]

I'm tired of dealing with knives in a cutter head that dull quickly. Here's the deal.

I have a Powermatic 15S planer with spiral cutter head. When the knives are new the cut is great and the feed of the wood through the planer is great and a pleasure to work with. The problem I'm having is that hard wood or should I say "old" wood (35+ years dry) dulls the knives on a single pass of about 150 BDFT of walnut lumber. It wasn't dirty or gritty, but the knives on this spiral head seem to dull very quickly.

1. Am I doing something wrong to make them dull so quickly?
2. At $110 per set of knives, one doesn't want to purchase them on a monthly basis.
3. What is my alternative?
4. I've had this planer for almost 2 years now and I'm tired of feeding this thing cutter knives.

I'm open to any and all suggestions. Thoughts?

[Jeff Hallam]

Is there more than one company that makes replacement knives, maybe the ones you are using are lesser quality.

Also, and this may seem a silly question but how do you know the knives are dull (i.e. is it harder to feed boards through or you have actually removed the knife and it is dull). I figured I would ask since I thought my knives were dulling quickly but in reality I just needed to clean and wax the tables on the planer. It makes a big difference.

Jeff

[Don Abele]

Dennis, I have a couple of friends that have spiral heads. They HATE the knives and complain about them dulling quickly too.

I know everyone is probably tired of hearing me talk about shelix heads, but that's what I would recommend.

Grizzly carries both the Byrd head (#H7768 - $595) and their brand ($H7655 - $475). The big difference between the two of them is the Byrd inserts are at an angle to the cut direction which causes a shear cut (the "she" in shelix). The Griz are square on. Unless you are working with seriously figured wood, I don't think you would notice the difference.

The replacement inserts for the Byrd are 15x15mm and 3mm thick - cost $29.95/10 pk. For Griz they are 14x14mm and 2mm thick - cost $24.95/10 pk.

Since only a small portion is striking the wood at any time, they are considerably quieter and smoother running than standard knives. From spiral knives they are only slightly quieter, but do run smoother (heavier weight?).

Be well,

Doc

[Dave Verstraete]

Dennis

The Grizzly online site has the Byrd Head currently on sale for $595, if that's what you are interested in.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Dennis,
I have no experience with a spiral cutter head but I have used a straight head and now a Tersa. The only knives I have used in my Tersa is HSS. There are other types of knives offered for Tersa's like chrome & M42 Carbide. One thing I was told to try was to mix up the knives...for example if you have a four head Tersa use two HSS and two Carbide. The first thing I would look into is different metals for your inserts if they are available.

[Dennis Peacock]

Is there more than one company that makes replacement knives, maybe the ones you are using are lesser quality.

Also, and this may seem a silly question but how do you know the knives are dull (i.e. is it harder to feed boards through or you have actually removed the knife and it is dull). I figured I would ask since I thought my knives were dulling quickly but in reality I just needed to clean and wax the tables on the planer. It makes a big difference.

Jeff

More than one company? I don't know Jeff. I've always ordered directly through a PM dealer.

I know the knives are dull because I have to "push" the wood through the planer, then when I replace the knives? The wood slips through the planer like it was on greased bearings. :)

[Dennis Peacock]

Dennis, I have a couple of friends that have spiral heads. They HATE the knives and complain about them dulling quickly too.

I know everyone is probably tired of hearing me talk about shelix heads, but that's what I would recommend.

Grizzly carries both the Byrd head (#H7768 - $595) and their brand ($H7655 - $475). The big difference between the two of them is the Byrd inserts are at an angle to the cut direction which causes a shear cut (the "she" in shelix). The Griz are square on. Unless you are working with seriously figured wood, I don't think you would notice the difference.

The replacement inserts for the Byrd are 15x15mm and 3mm thick - cost $29.95/10 pk. For Griz they are 14x14mm and 2mm thick - cost $24.95/10 pk.

Since only a small portion is striking the wood at any time, they are considerably quieter and smoother running than standard knives. From spiral knives they are only slightly quieter, but do run smoother (heavier weight?).

Be well,
Doc

Doc,

Much appreciate the feedback and at least now I know that I'm not the only one experienceing or complaining about the same problem. I guess I'll have to hold out until I can swing a Shelix head for it.

[Kim Spence]

Dennis - I have the same machine and have the same frustrations you have. I got a "deal" on 500+ BF of 20+ year old air dried hard maple and that stuff is REALLY hard on these blades. I'm planning at some point to upgrade to the Grizzly carbide head. I have that head on my jointer and its fantastic.

Back to the Spiral blade issue...couple of things.
1. Some time back there was a SMC thread about these spiral blades and someone posted a drawing of a jig they built to sharpen these types of blades. I never tried it, but one would think that if you can hold the blade securely at the proper angle you should be able to at least hone it with a stone or diamond plate. I did a quick search on SMC but didn't find it...but I know its here somewhere.

2. If you're paying $110 per set of knives you're overpaying. Sunhill Machinery has them for $80 (http://sunhillmachinery.com/store/index.asp?department=5), believe they're the same as the PM blades. I've found PM brand replacements locally (7 Corners Hardware in St. Paul, MN) for I believe in the $80 range. Not a huge savings but every bit helps. Can't remember for sure, but I think I've picked them up for less than $80 somewhere...

3. My workaround until I can afford to upgrade to the Grizzly head is to plane to a couple hundredths over desired thickness then send back over the jointer to "clean up" the planer's cut...this will remove any minor tearout, ridges, lines, etc left by the dull and knicked planer blades.

For what its worth, I've had the Griz jointer and PM planer approximately the same length of time (2 or 2.5 yrs) and used them both roughly equally on an occasional/hobbiest basis, and in that time I think I've replaced the planer knives 4 times but only rotated the carbide cutters on the jointer once and I think I could have gotten a little more mileage out of the carbide cutters, it was an experiment to see if a sharp edge would make the machine quieter.

[Don Abele]

For what its worth, I've had the Griz jointer and PM planer approximately the same length of time (2 or 2.5 yrs) and used them both roughly equally on an occasional/hobbiest basis, and in that time I think I've replaced the planer knives 4 times but only rotated the carbide cutters on the jointer once and I think I could have gotten a little more mileage out of the carbide cutters, it was an experiment to see if a sharp edge would make the machine quieter.

Kim, after we replaced the standard knives on our very big and expensive two-sided planer at work to a shelix head I was sold on them. We typically could run about 500 board feet of live oak through before the blades needed to be resharpened (in house). Since the shelix upgrade, we've run a couple thousand of board feet through and still have not rotated them once.

Be well,

Doc

[Joe Meazle]

Dennis,
If you want to see the Byrd head you can come by. I have not put it in yet so I can't speak to its vices or virtues.
Joe

[J.R. Rutter]

There is very little steel to back up the edge on the spiral knives, which would be my guess as to why they wear out so quickly. I have Shelix heads in a 12" jointer and 24" planer. They were worth every penny.

[Rob Will]

There is very little steel to back up the edge on the spiral knives, which would be my guess as to why they wear out so quickly. I have Shelix heads in a 12" jointer and 24" planer. They were worth every penny.

Hi J.R., I have a Shelix on a 24" planer as well. What variety planer do you have?

Rob

[Michael Handrinos]

Don't want to hijack the thread, but how hard is it to change out the factory blades to a byrd head?

Thanks

Mike

[Dennis Peacock]

Don't want to hijack the thread, but how hard is it to change out the factory blades to a byrd head?

Thanks

Mike

Mike,

Byrd has the how-to on their website. Doesn't look hard at all, but does appear to be "involved". :)

[Dennis Peacock]

Dennis,
If you want to see the Byrd head you can come by. I have not put it in yet so I can't speak to its vices or virtues.
Joe

I'd love to come by and see it up close and personal. Maybe I can help you change yours out and when I get one...you could help me. :D

[Mike Heidrick]

Dennis, Chris Jenkins has one for sale cheap - 15" Byrd head that is. Send him a note.

[Brian W Evans]

I asked my PM dealer recently about converting a PM 15S to a Shelix head. He said he'd done it for a few people and that it was very involved and took several hours. While I was talking to him about it, a guy from a cabinet shop overheard us and told me how great the Shelix was on his shop's 201HH.

Bottom line: It sounds very involved but worth it. On the other hand, might this be a good time to upgrade to a 209HH or a 201HH, given the cost of the new head and the time/difficulty involved in installing the Shelix? I bet you could get pretty good $$ selling the 15S.

[J.R. Rutter]

I swapped out the head in my old shop fox 20" planer for the shelix a few years ago. It took a couple of hours going at an easy relaxed pace. Well worth it.

Rob - My current planer is Rockwell RC-63. It is an older one with solid chipbreaker and feed roller, but works great. Excellent form factor - very compact.

[Dennis Peacock]

I have PM'd Chris. Thanks so much!!!

[Frank Snyder]

Switching out the factory journal for a Byrd isn't all that difficult. If you can change the oil on your car, I would venture to say that you could handle this. You just need a bearing puller, a metric socket set, a hammer and some scrap material to support to old journal when you remove it.

I documented my process of installing a Byrd head on my PM209 here about a year ago...

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=48501&highlight=dealing+tearout

I'm happy to answer any questions.

Frank