How good is grizzly?

[Jim Barstow]

My shop is currently equipped with Inca machinery which are superb quality but just can't handle the kinds of things I'm building now so I'm upgrading several of the machines in my shop. I've been looking at all the standards (powermatic, grizzly, etc) as well as the europeans (Felder). The grizzly owners I've talked to have been very happy and I get the impression that grizzly is not your standard low-medium quality knock off. I went into this process assuming I would end up with european machinery since I liked the Inca so much but I find I am leaning strongly toward grizzly machines. I love the idea of saving money but after using really high quality machines am I going to be happy with grizzly?

[John Michaels]

I've been very happy with my grizzly G0453 15" planer from griz. They have a lot of good stuff. My neighbor has the 1023 table saw and absolutely loves it. Both of these machines have a very big bang for the buck. Are you a hobbyist or do woodworking full time? Grizzly has some pretty big industrial machines like huge 24" planers and giant drum sanders that I don't know much about. If you reply with a list of machines you have your eye on, maybe someone here can give you advice.

[Joe Chritz]

It is best to individually research each piece of equipment you plan on purchasing and buy whatever fits your needs best.

For several items of mine that has been grizzly. 15" planer, 8" jointer, 24" dual drum sander, 2" belt grinder and 3 HP shaper. Not the top quality but worth above the cost in my opinion, at least for the items I have personal knowledge of.

Most machinery is produced in roughly the same factories except for the European machines and a select few others, or old iron.

Joe

[Lance Norris]

When I bought my cabinet saw, I wish I had been paying attention. What I bought was a Delta cabinet saw that isnt a Unisaw, but is a very good quality machine. The money I paid for it would have bought one of the higher end 1023s'. Im not un-happy with my purchase, but the Grizzly cabinet saw is given very high regards. My Delta saw is now discontinued, and I wonder, in the back of my mind, if I made a mistake.

When it came time to buy a bandsaw, I bought a Grizzly G0457. Its an excellent bandsaw and has done everything I have asked of it. My experience with this bandsaw made me choose Grizzly again for a planer. Its a 1021X, a 15" spiral head, 3 hp. It also is excellent. I now have a Grizzly cannister dust collector, G0548 and am happy with it as well.

Is there better equipment available? Maybe. Will someone who looks at your completed projects be able to tell that you used an $800 bandsaw or a $1000 table saw, as opposed to machines that cost 3 or 4 times as much. No... I dont think they will. Will you be happy with the quality and value of Grizzly machines. I think so. I am, and Im not the only one.

[scott spencer]

Only you can really answer whether or not you'll be happy with a given machine. Grizzly is a name that gets put on a lot of equipment. I really think you need to evaluate each piece on it's own merits b/c they're not all equal. Grizzly offers the gamut from cheap hand held low cost tools to some really fine machines.

You also should consider that many who are happy with Grizzly are hobbyists, along with some pros, so the name may take on some level of esteem but the expectations may differ from yours. From my perspective, Grizzly is a good value Asian import on par with others like Jet, General International, Steel City, some Delta, some Craftsman, Woodtek, Rikon and possibly even some of the lower PM stuff. Grizzly is a direct importer who offers lower price by selling directly with no dealer markup, but also no dealer support. I hear of very few people who put Grizzly at the same level as Agazzini, Martin, Felder, Minimax, General, Altendorf, Laguna, Inca, etc. There's definitely a place for Grizzly in the market, and their customer service has a good reputation but it's not that simple to say definitively that you'll be happy with Grizzly for your needs.

[John Keeton]

I just went through the research phase and decision making process to replace the major tools in my hobby shop. For the last 20 years, I had fairly light, but decent quality mix of machines. I do not use my shop daily at this point, but in a few years plan to retire and increase substantially my use. One of the tools that I had for approximately 15 years was a Grizzly bandsaw. The quality of that tool was good, but not great. But, everything I read said quality had improved.

I ended up getting a G0490 jointer, G0453 planer, G0513x2 bandsaw and a G1023SLW tablesaw. All of the machines are as represented, set up easily, were in reasonably good tune from the factory, and the service is second to none. I am very pleased, and can easily use the money I saved on more toys! If I were a production shop, using my tools hard day in, day out, the choices may have been different, but I'm not sure of that. I don't see myself wearing out these tools in the next 25 years, if the good Lord gives me that long. That is good enough for me, but your needs may be greater.

[J. Z. Guest]

Jim, my experience with Grizzly tools has been similar to others'.

I ordered a jointer from them, and it never came. They didn't tell me until a week after I had placed the order that it was back-ordered. I waited a couple months before finally cancelling the order. (wound up getting a Jet)

I also ordered a 12" planer, which was pretty good. (but not great)

If you're used to European quality, you'll be disappointed with the lower end Grizzly stuff. The higher end stuff is pro-grade. Grizzly is just a brand name that is put onto any machine that meets their spec.

[Lee Koepke]

Scott has some good points.

I bought a Grizzly 1023 and am quite pleased.... but I use the saw as a hobbyist, so that means not every day 8 hrs / day either. I am limited to a few hours at night and a few weekends. Not all that time is spent on the saw either.

If you are comparing Grizzlys to Europeans, its not a fair comparison. IMO two entirely different types of machines intended for two entirely different end users.

What type of work do you do, or plan to do ? That would elicit some more specific responses.

[Curt Harms]

Thinking in car terms

The Grizzly models mostly discussed on this board=Toyota Camry
Inca/Euro equipment= BWM or Mercedes

Will both get You safely from here to there? Yup
Will they both have the same comfort and panache? Nope.

[Chas Richter]

Scott has some good points.



If you are comparing Grizzlys to Europeans, its not a fair comparison. IMO two entirely different types of machines intended for two entirely different end users.



I bought a Grizzly table saw 20 years ago and it was not impressive to say the least. I sold it and bought a Unisaw which is my benchmark. Jump forward to today: I bought a Minimax MM16 a few months ago, and more recently got the Grizzly 0490 jointer and the new 1021X2 15" planer, both with Shelix cutter heads. The jointer replaced an 8" American made Powermatic. I have no regrets about "trading down" - it is simply better in terms of design, casting and build quality. The planer is mostly dis-assembled because I am building a mobile base and I need to strip it down so me and my wife could pick things up. This also gives a look at how it is constructed. It is hard to find any place where they have tried to cut a corner.

In terms of build quality, I would put rate these items as good as or better than the MM. I wish I had the the 17" Griz bandsaw for a direct comparison. just my 2 cents

[Edward Garrett]

I am a "serious hobbiest" and I have a a shop full of Grizzly equipment - the G1023 5HP table saw, the G0454 20" planer, the G0490 8" planer, the G513X 17" bandsaw and the G0562 3HP dust collector. I am not a Grizzly fanatic or evangelist....I simply came to my buying decisions one at a time through research, getting "hands-on" the top 3 machines on my list, and then doing a cost-benefit analysis of each. For my own needs and priorities Grizzly won in every case except the drum sander.

From what I have seen of Delta and Jet (I haveowned these) and Powematic (I have used the PM TS and planer), I am confident that, for what my needs are as a hobbiest, I made the best decision in purchasing Grizzly. The only tool I hope to upgrade someday would be the tablesaw - I hope to eventually get a SawStop.

I am also very pleased with Grizzly Customer Service (pretty important priority for me)....I have never had an issue with an on-line order (big or small), and when I have had a question or an issue the CS at Grizzly has always met my expectations.

Now, if money were no object or if I was a full-time woodworker, would I have made different decisions? MAYBE....but again, for what my needs, priorities and expectations are I am very, very satisfied with the quality and value of my Grizzly tools.

[Keith Outten]

You can put me on the Grizzly fan list as well. I own a shop full of Grizzly equipment and as I went from Hobby work to professional I haven't had to replace any of my Grizzly machines. A few years ago I sold one of the smaller Grizzly band saws and replaced it with an 18" Jet that I am not happy with...I will be ordering another Grizzly band saw soon, this time it will be the largest they have that I can afford.

I own a Grizzly 15" planner, it is a very old model...single speed with bearings that have to be oiled every time I use it. I can't wear the dang thing out for the life of me and I used to dry and sell lumber for may years.

I have the original 1023 cabinet saw I bought when I built me current workshop over 15 years ago. I won't live long enough to wear it out either, it is still rock solid and smooth as glass after all these years of constant use.

To each his own when it comes to selecting equipment. I believe in purchasing the "Best Value" for my needs, Grizzly has proven to be a solid performer in my shop.

.

[Jim Barstow]

I should have been more specific. The inca table saw is really too small and uses a tilting table so I'm getting a sawstop. That decision was easy.
I was thinking of replacing the inca jointer/planer combo with separate machines, the grizzly G1021x2 15" planer and the 12" jointer, probably the G9860ZX. (The separate machines total less than a fully equipped felder 531 jointer/planer.) I have an inca bandsaw which I sometimes love and sometimes is the target of a long stream of invective. At some point in the future, I'll probably replace that.

I'm not a pro but we're just finishing building a new house which has a shop double the size of what I've got now. I have a long list of furniture I have pledged to build, including 8 dining chairs so the machines will get a lot of use.

[Don Abele]

Jim, I don't know if you saw several recent threads of mine concerning combo machines. I have a Jet 6" jointer and Ridgid 13" lunchbox planer that I need to upgrade for an upcoming project. I started looking at individual replacements vs combo units. What ultimately swayed me away from individual pieces was weight. The planer was the Griz G1021X2 which I think is the top planer in that size you can get. But the problem was with the jointer. I was looking at the G0609X (similar to the one you've listed). It's over 1000 pounds and can not be put on a mobile base. That was an absolute negative. There's no way I could have used it. So I switched my search to combo units, of which I've now decided to go with the Jet (because of features only, I think the Griz unit is just as nice).

To your original question though...we have a Griz table saw at work and work that thing hard (especially cutting live oak) and it takes it all in stride. I think their equipment, like others have said, is on par with most of the name brands that the average hobbyist woodworker has in their shops.

Be well,

Doc

[Mikail Khan]

I am a hobbyist.

I have a Grizzly 19" G0514X Bandsaw and a 20" 1033X planer and I am very happy with the performance of both. When I selected Grizzly I did not save money as such. But I was able to purchase larger capacity machines/or machines that had better features (e.g spiral cutterhead) than if I had selected Jet, PM or Delta.

Mikail

[Jim Barstow]

Jim, I don't know if you saw several recent threads of mine concerning combo machines. I have a Jet 6" jointer and Ridgid 13" lunchbox planer that I need to upgrade for an upcoming project. I started looking at individual replacements vs combo units. What ultimately swayed me away from individual pieces was weight. The planer was the Griz G1021X2 which I think is the top planer in that size you can get. But the problem was with the jointer. I was looking at the G0609X (similar to the one you've listed). It's over 1000 pounds and can not be put on a mobile base. That was an absolute negative. There's no way I could have used it. So I switched my search to combo units, of which I've now decided to go with the Jet (because of features only, I think the Griz unit is just as nice).

To your original question though...we have a Griz table saw at work and work that thing hard (especially cutting live oak) and it takes it all in stride. I think their equipment, like others have said, is on par with most of the name brands that the average hobbyist woodworker has in their shops.

Be well,

Doc

A mobile base is listed as an accessory for the 9860zx but I'll double check.

I considered the jet and grizzly combos but both had some downsides. I visited the Felder showroom in sacramento to look at the hammer and 531 jointer/planers and came away thinking that, for a combo, the 531 was the way to go. It is beautifully made and can be placed almost against a wall since the fence doesn't require extra space when at the extreme. The hammer tables tilt when raised and almost double the footprint of the machine. Unfortunately, felder does not have any helical cutter heads. In addition, by the time you add in the accessories for a 531, you're looking at well over $6000 for a machine that is less convenient than separates. (I've used an inca combo machine for 25 years and have adjusted my workflow as such. There were many times, however, that losing the planer setup when going to the jointer was a real pain.) For anyone considering a combo, I would say if you can afford the space, use separates.

[Don Bullock]

I should have been more specific. The inca table saw is really too small and uses a tilting table so I'm getting a sawstop. That decision was easy.

Great choice. You'll love it.


I was thinking of replacing the inca jointer/planer combo with separate machines, the grizzly G1021x2 15" planer and the 12" jointer, probably the G9860ZX. (The separate machines total less than a fully equipped felder 531 jointer/planer.)

I don't know much about Grizzly planers, but their jointers are well made. If I ever do decide to upgrade my G0490 jointer the G9860ZX is definitely on my "short list" of machines to look at.


I have an inca bandsaw which I sometimes love and sometimes is the target of a long stream of invective. At some point in the future, I'll probably replace that.

For band saws my hope is to one day to be able to pick up an Agazzani B-24 or B-32. I don't think that Grizzly has anything that will come close to an Agazzani. Perhaps they do, but I can get the Agazzani locally.


I'm not a pro but we're just finishing building a new house which has a shop double the size of what I've got now. I have a long list of furniture I have pledged to build, including 8 dining chairs so the machines will get a lot of use.

I hope that your pledge list isn't so long that you won't enjoy your woodworking.

[Don Abele]

A mobile base is listed as an accessory for the 9860zx but I'll double check.

Jim, if you double check, the mobile base is listed under the "Customers who purchased this item also purchased:" area. Under Accessories is only Safety Glasses, Machinists Squares, and Hearing Protectors.

When I asked Griz CS about the mobile base for the G0609X they listed two reasons why they did not recommend a mobile base: the overall weight and the fact that the base is not square - it bows out along the length. If you look that the 9860ZX, you will see that is looks like it also bows out.

Be well,

Doc

[Karl Brogger]

You guys would cringe at Northfield equipment prices.

I worked at a shop that had almost everything Grizzly. In a profession shop scenario...... its crap. For the hobbiest it is probably plenty.

[Karl Brogger]

Here's a list of Northfield equipment prices.

http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/pricelist/pricelist-2007.pdf

Best of the best though.

[Jody Malinich]

I've got a shop full of grizzly tools. I run them 10 to 14 hours a day in a production setting everyday of the week. The only time I have had problems with any of them was induced by the humans running them or by not keeping up with routine maintenance. Would I be better off with more expensive name brand tools? Don't know and as long as grizzly keeps making quality stuff I may never find out. I've never had to replaced a griz tool, but I have gotten larger machines from them when I outgrew the other one. I don't think I could get half a the tools needed to run close to 600 shadow boxes and a truckload or two of furniture not to mention tons of other stuff thru the doors without going "green". All of my griz tools have lived up to what I expected of them if not more, while I do have other brands in my shop I have not had any last as long as my green machines have. Customer service and the parts department are top notch and more often than not the person you talk to actually has some knowledge about the tool in question.

IMHO you get alot of bang for the buck with Grizzly and get the best customer service around.

[glenn bradley]

No complaints on product or customer support. I say support instead of service because I've gotten good support but never required service.

[Simon Dupay]

I bought a Grizzly table saw 20 years ago and it was not impressive to say the least. I sold it and bought a Unisaw which is my benchmark. Jump forward to today: I bought a Minimax MM16 a few months ago, and more recently got the Grizzly 0490 jointer and the new 1021X2 15" planer, both with Shelix cutter heads. The jointer replaced an 8" American made Powermatic. I have no regrets about "trading down" - it is simply better in terms of design, casting and build quality. The planer is mostly dis-assembled because I am building a mobile base and I need to strip it down so me and my wife could pick things up. This also gives a look at how it is constructed. It is hard to find any place where they have tried to cut a corner.

In terms of build quality, I would put rate these items as good as or better than the MM. I wish I had the the 17" Griz bandsaw for a direct comparison. just my 2 cents

How is a grizzly better casting and build quality than an U.S-made PM?

[Ryan Bess]

When I read the title of this thread, I almost cringed. I could see it in my mind before reading on: 1/2 saying "it's crap!" and 1/2 saying "it's wonderful" It's possible if you started a thread titled "HOW GOOD IS (place name brand here)?" you would get the same results no matter the company listed. If you lump together all the opinions, I think you can surmise that Grizzly makes a bang-for-the-buck mid level tool that has better than average customer assistance. I am a hobbyist and happen to own a few Grizzly tools. My personal experience has been positive and I feel I got exactly what I paid for.

[Bart Leetch]

How is a grizzly better casting and build quality than an U.S-made PM?

How many PM tools are still made in the US? Just a question because I don't know. It has been my understanding that quite a few of the PM tools are made over seas.

[Kev Godwin]

I have only one Grizzly full size unit - a bandsaw G0555 (Ultimate 14" Bandsaw). I didn't have high expectations when I ordered it nearly 4 years ago, but I have been extremely pleased with the performance since. I'd put it up against any like-sized Delta or Jet any day. My father has had a like sized 14" Delta and I can't find where his B-saw can out perform my Grizzly in any way.

[Don Dorn]

I've used many tool brands but have outfitted two shops now with primarily Griz equipment. For this last shop, I ordered the G1023L five years ago and was worried I should have spent the extra on a Unisaw. I have no regrets at all - and a friend who recently ordered a Unisaw had terrible "fit" problems getting it together, even though it was probably a fluke.

I have a jointer, drill press, air compressor, Ultimate Bandsaw and have been very happy with all. The only thing I would probably do differently is a Delta bandsaw. The reason is simply because they have a system to adjust the lower supports that is much easier to get to. However, I'm very happy with it's performance.

[Keith Outten]

You guys would cringe at Northfield equipment prices.

I worked at a shop that had almost everything Grizzly. In a profession shop scenario...... its crap. For the hobbiest it is probably plenty.

Karl,

You have committed a mortal sin. It is irresponsible to make a statement like that and not back it up with facts. Assuming you have used Grizzly equipment you should be providing details of the machines and problems you experienced. A negative statement or derogatory comments without facts is not worth much no matter which manufacturer is being discussed.

[Dave Verstraete]

After a little research (mostly on this site), last week I ordered my first tool from Grizzly. I am anticipating the arrival of a 15" planer (G0453Z) that I have to get into the basement. Will take pics of that process!! Previously my sons have always looked back and said "Remember how we put Dad's Powermatic saw down the basement". I think the planer might become the new legend in that respect.

[Karl Brogger]

Karl,

You have committed a mortal sin. It is irresponsible to make a statement like that and not back it up with facts. Assuming you have used Grizzly equipment you should be providing details of the machines and problems you experienced. A negative statement or derogatory comments without facts is not worth much no matter which manufacturer is being discussed.

All I remember was that we had three breakdowns of table saws. Exactly what I don't remember. It was almost ten years ago so its a might fuzzy. I think two were switches, and one was an entire motor replacement. Loose sloppy fences. Pain in the butt right tilt blades, (which is great for a dado saw, nothing else though), Just a loose feeling altogether. I was there a year and not impressed with the quality of any of his tooling. Oh, shapers. Yikes, his all vibrated like crazy. Abuse I don't know, worn out possibly.

Now, I worked at another shop that had at least eight table saws, and probably in the neighbor hood of a dozen shapers. This place was big enough to have 3 Timesavers widebelt sanders just so we didn't waste time changing belts. BIG. All of it was ran hard. There was one Powermatic failure in the three years I was there and it was on the first table saw that the owner had ever bought. It couldn't have been too old, as it was still yellow, but it did have the steel motor cover. Most of the shapers, planers, and tablesaws in that place were Powermatic or Northfield. We had Two Delta table saws in the cut out dept for dado's. This place was the wet dream of tooling in my eyes.

[Tim Marks]

It is enlightening to notice that most "grizzly is crap" stories start out with the "10 or 15 years ago" statement.

Grizzly 10 or 15 years ago was like Harbor Freight is today (ok, maybe not that bad). Their product quality has changed dramatically, and what they sell today usually rivals just about anyone.

I have 4 grizzly machines, and they all work beautifully. I will definitely buy machines from them in the future.

[Karl Brogger]

It is enlightening to notice that most "grizzly is crap" stories start out with the "10 or 15 years ago" statement.

It put a sour enough taste in my mouth that I would still never buy one.
Compromises always have to be made. I bought a drum sander because I couldn't afford a Timesaver when I started out four years ago. Today in fact I bought a Timesaver, it still isn't the one I want, but it is the one I can afford and it'll beat the snot out of my Woodmaster. Hopefully 5 years down the road I'll be able to spend the money on the Timesaver I want that will beat the snot out of the model I have now. or, I'll get smart and get my butt out of the trades.

[Bart Leetch]

Chuckle!!!! Well Karl maybe if you used a little mouth wash you could get rid of the sour taste. But wait then we couldn't brand you a sour mouth for the rest of your life!!!!:):D

Yes in my own little way I am poking fun at you & others that hold onto a grudge because I used to do the same thing.:D:D:D

Life is just to short to hold a grudge & besides that I'm having a hard time remembering who or what I need to hold a grudge against. I'm finding the old hard drive only holds just so much:eek:, so I have to let go of something so the grudges just had to go.:)

I have seen some of the same problems with other brands of tools with much bigger price tags.:eek:

[SCOTT ANDREWS]

You guys would cringe at Northfield equipment prices.

I worked at a shop that had almost everything Grizzly. In a profession shop scenario...... its crap. For the hobbiest it is probably plenty.



So how do you define "pro" shop.I guess if you have a $15,000 euro slider cutting $30 a sheet POS particle board called "melamine" your shop is considered pro.I think alot of the time the title of pro shop is more of a ego or advertising niche for the owner of that shop.

[Bart Leetch]

Karl

Said mostly in jest.....


Well some people cut plywood & hardwoods on an expensive euro-slider others cut them on a Grizzly if adjusted properly they both will help create fine furniture.

100 or even 50 years from now no one will know whether a Grizzly saw was used by a commoner or on a slider by a high fa looting blue blood.:):D:eek:

Oh by the way I have a 1940 Unisaw that came with a 3 phase motor I needed a single phase motor & to save a few dollars actually $100 by buying a Grizzly motor & it went right in the Unisaw like it belonged there. There are a lot of Grizzly tools out there in production shops doing just fine. But then maybe you have deeper pockets then the rest of us commoners.

To the rest of you commoners that do have the more expensive equipment congratulations & best wishes.

Oh I forgot I have 6 pieces of Grizzly Equipment none of the really top of the line equipment they make but plenty good enough to work with to maintenance 2 apartment complexes & also do hobby work.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Karl,

A number of years ago Grizzley did have a bad reputation. The owner, a Creeker, decided to change the quality and reputation of the company. He raised the standards for the quality of the equipment they sell and have manufactured.

I don't own a single piece of Grizzley equipment but I will soon. My trigger finger is getting itchy again and I'm about to pull the trigger again.

Like any other company today, Grizzley on occasions will have some quality issues but so does the other manufacturers. I do know there are a lot of satisfied Grizzley equipment owners here at the Creek. That's good enough for me!

[SCOTT ANDREWS]

Karl

Said mostly in jest.....


Well some people cut plywood & hardwoods on an expensive euro-slider others cut them on a Grizzly if adjusted properly they both will help create fine furniture.

100 or even 50 years from now no one will know whether a Grizzly saw was used by a commoner or on a slider by a high fa looting blue blood.:):D:eek:

Oh by the way I have a 1940 Unisaw that came with a 3 phase motor I needed a single phase motor & to save a few dollars actually $100 by buying a Grizzly motor & it went right in the Unisaw like it belonged there. There are a lot of Grizzly tools out there in production shops doing just fine. But then maybe you have deeper pockets then the rest of us commoners.

To the rest of you commoners that do have the more expensive equipment congratulations & best wishes.


Thank you Bart for summing it up for this commoner.Glad to see your motor fit.

[Kev Godwin]

Karl,
If you take a look at page 3 of the 2008 Grizzly Industrial Catalog you will find a sample list of Grizzly's customers including a laundry list of several fortune 500 companies. Do you think the purchasing agents for these companies would risk their jobs on a poor purchase? If you look at that list you will also notice several companies that will be using equipment in conditions much heavier in application than any production shop!

Who should have a bad taste in their mouth? :confused:
Kev

[jim gossage]

You guys would cringe at Northfield equipment prices.

i looked at the list...oops....i'll be back in a minute....i have to change my underwear.

[Karl Brogger]

So how do you define "pro" shop.I guess if you have a $15,000 euro slider cutting $30 a sheet POS particle board called "melamine" your shop is considered pro.I think alot of the time the title of pro shop is more of a ego or advertising niche for the owner of that shop.

"Pro" as I would define it: Anyone that make a living at it. ie profession, professional, "pro" Shops have idiots, those idiots abuse things, they don't care of anything, and things just get run hard. A saw might get turned on/off 50 times in one day, thats hard on things. It gets packed full of dust and not cleaned out, thats hard on things. Abuse and neglect. Whether the newer stuff is any better I honestly don't know. Their pricing is definetly alot higher than it was even a few years ago. In a magazine ad they have double head widebelt sanders. For a 43" its $21k. That same machine made by Timesavers Inc. is close to $35k. Now does Timesavers just make a product more expensive because they can, or because its made in the US, (or Minnesota), or is it that higher quality components go into the machine? Maybe things are just a bit beefier? Things generally aren't more expensive just because they are. If you want to use cars as a reference why does a KIA cost less than a Chevy, or Cadillac, or Mercedes Benz? Because they have their niche. Most of us can't afford a Benz, or maybe even a Cadillac but you can justify buying the Chevy can't you? I don't want to be stranded by my equipment any more than I do my vehicle. A Northfield shaper costs more than twice what I paid for my newest Powermatic shaper, and four times as much as a Grizzly. Here's the difference where the car comparison ends. A shaper is almost a shaper. Its a motor, a frame, a spindle and some belts. You aren't getting bells and whistles just better quality. I can't afford Northfield equipment but it is to my way of thinking the best stuff available. They are a massive chunk of cast iron, use the best motors and the best switches. They are built to be used by idiots, or G.I. proof as my father would say. The fricken thing weighs 900 lbs for the small table version! But, alas I can't afford Northfield anything, so I buy what I can afford. $30k for a planer? Use one and you'll understand why.

I don't think the Powermatic saw that I bought 4 years ago is as good as some of the older ones I've used. It seems to vibrate more than I'd like, it came with a good motor but a cheap switch. Switch hasn't failed yet, and maybe I just need to do some adjusting to get rid of some of the vibration.

Melamine, yuck... Worst thing to ever happen to cabinetry as well. But you can build a less expensive product that way.

[Steve Rowe]

To get away from the predicatable Grizzly lovefest and back to the OPs question. Everyone has different standards and expectations of their tools and machinery. What is great to one may very well be a piece of junk to another. If you read the OP you will find the answer. Jim has apparently become accustomed to "superb quality" and backing down from that is not likely to make him happy. If what you value is superb quality, go European. If what you value is low cost, go Grizzly or others. I have owned everything from Craftsman to Grizzly and all the way up to high end European equipment and honestly, Grizzly can't hold a candle to it in functionality or quality. It is hard to beat the Grizzly prices. Whether or not it is the "best value" is highly user dependent.

While Karl's 'crap' characterization of Grizzly was a bit harsh, it was based on actual experience with their machinery in a commercial shop. I find it amazing that several fail to grasp that their "great" Grizzly experience could very well be another purchasers nightmare. It is also amazing that people fall for the endorsement advertising hype on page 3 of a catalog. Get real! - do you really think they would publish the experiences of Karl and a number of others in their catalog.

With respect to the grudge accusation (in jest I think?), in Karl's post, it is obvious he was not the purchaser of the equipment therefore, how could he hold a grudge? He was not out any $. He offered his perspective from an end user point of view and that bears much more credence than what he has been given. I was a purchaser of 3 Grizzly machines and found them all to be lacking in both quality and performance (Note: "Mortal sin" police should refer to my previous posts for the facts supporting this statement and is hereby incorporated by reference). Would you also accuse me of holding a grudge? You could but, it would not be true as I freely acknowledge that I got exactly what I paid for. Grudge no, I chalk it up as a learning experience and I learned lessons that I will not repeat, ever.

Jim, whatever your choice, remember that the aignst of poor quality lasts much much longer than the joy of getting a good price.

Steve

[William OConnell]

To get away from the predicatable Grizzly lovefest and back to the OPs question. Everyone has different standards and expectations of their tools and machinery. What is great to one may very well be a piece of junk to another. If you read the OP you will find the answer. Jim has apparently become accustomed to "superb quality" and backing down from that is not likely to make him happy. If what you value is superb quality, go European. If what you value is low cost, go Grizzly or others. I have owned everything from Craftsman to Grizzly and all the way up to high end European equipment and honestly, Grizzly can't hold a candle to it in functionality or quality. It is hard to beat the Grizzly prices. Whether or not it is the "best value" is highly user dependent.

While Karl's 'crap' characterization of Grizzly was a bit harsh, it was based on actual experience with their machinery in a commercial shop. I find it amazing that several fail to grasp that their "great" Grizzly experience could very well be another purchasers nightmare. It is also amazing that people fall for the endorsement advertising hype on page 3 of a catalog. Get real! - do you really think they would publish the experiences of Karl and a number of others in their catalog.

With respect to the grudge accusation (in jest I think?), in Karl's post, it is obvious he was not the purchaser of the equipment therefore, how could he hold a grudge? He was not out any $. He offered his perspective from an end user point of view and that bears much more credence than what he has been given. I was a purchaser of 3 Grizzly machines and found them all to be lacking in both quality and performance (Note: "Mortal sin" police should refer to my previous posts for the facts supporting this statement and is hereby incorporated by reference). Would you also accuse me of holding a grudge? You could but, it would not be true as I freely acknowledge that I got exactly what I paid for. Grudge no, I chalk it up as a learning experience and I learned lessons that I will not repeat, ever.

Jim, whatever your choice, remember that the aignst of poor quality lasts much much longer than the joy of getting a good price.

Steve

Steve
Thank you for your time in writing that post. I personally am an owner of an 8" Grizzley Jointer and am happy with it. Ive used some of there other stuff and found it wasnt up to my minimum quality standards. I think you cant blanket the Company as either good or bad as for some its just what the doctor ordered for others not so much.
I needed a new planer and pondered the Grizzly but because of my respect for old Iron I found an old powermatic 16" for $800. I need something thats time tested and 1 1930-40s powermatic is. I love it.
http://woodworkers.us/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=622&g2_serialNumber=2&g2_GALLERYSID=b579ed516c2e62224f4e4b01553c310a

[Peter Quinn]

Bravo and ditto Steve for clear thinking and elequent writing. Buying a tool based on hear say and consumer reporting is a difficult proposition at best. Add in the varied needs and expectations of the woodworking community and you have chaos. If the machine allows you to do what you want to the wood then you have the right machine for you. Pity there isn't some way to actually try out these tools and compare their working properties for yourself before purchasing (there is no such thing in my area).

My experience with grizzly FWIW has been both professional and personal use. In a medium/large pro shop making moldings, passage doors and custom cabinets/millwork there were several pieces of griz equipment, specifically an over arm pin router and a dust collector. Neither was as good as competing grands (Like Onsrud or Airtec). They were both considered suplemental equipment (not put to heavy daily use) so they stayed.

Other pieces of griz eqipment were tried and found inadequit for a small industrial environment. Their bandsaw (20"), shaper (5HP) and TS (cabinet saw, don't know which one) simply didn't hold a candle to things like Laguna, old PM and SCMI equipment. Their ability to be set up quickly and maintain accuracy during production simply didn't match the environment. They had an overall lightweight feeling in direct comparison to other pieces of machinery. Guys didn't like using them which matters when you do it every day for a living.

When outfitting my home shop I put a toe in the water and bought a Griz 1HP power feeder for use on my shaper and I will tell you NO, it is not as good as as others I have used in the same class. The central casting is stout, the XYZ axis operates smoothly, the basics work well, but the devil is in the details. The drive wheels are crap and need to be replaced, they use a cheap hard rubber instead of a sticky gum type, not a nice feature in a drive wheel. The hand wheels for adjustment (ie: the parts that stick out in the breeze and are most likely to be bumped and broken) are molded plastic. For a few bucks more I can add metal ones as these fail. The motor is a lower grade than competitors, and that's where I'm stuck. I have pushed a Steff and powermatic powerfeeder hard for hours and never had a problem...continuous duty means continuous duty! The Griz has overheated and stopped under heavy load on long runs causing me to lose material and time. Let it cool off and it works fine again. For what I saved I wish I'd bought a better unit.

If your thinking Grizzly has some magician running the show who has figured out how to make equipment as good as the big brands for half the price you are fooling yourself. Every piece of equipment I have seen from them is less than best of breed and contains some compromises to achieve the price point. None of what I've used has been crap, its all a fair value. In Grizzly I see a efficient growing company heading slowly upmarket. If their goods meet your needs then buy them. If you want the best and can afford it or need it, don't look to them because they dont sell it. For every post I read that sounds like, "My Grizzly is just as good as.....me thinks thou dost protest too much!"

[Karl Brogger]

Whew! I was starting to wonder if I was on a one sided battle here. I'm a blunt instrument, I say whatever I feel I need to get my point across. So "crap" is me leaping to the point.

[Bart Leetch]

Hey Karl

Thats OK we understand:eek::):D:D we all have our likes & dislikes.

Besides that you ain't in a battle YET:D

You know come to think about it a big slider would fit real nice in my shop:D as long as I didn't want to use it, the shop is 13'5"x24'5" .

For me I do apartment repairs & hobby work with my tools & some of my tools are better than Dad's tools that he had as a builder & cabinet maker.

They didn't have the tools available to the small shop owner back then & if they did they were way to expensive for someone just starting out. Most of my Dads floor model equipment was Craftsman from the 50's & 60's.

I have them too. Some of them are in storage i.e. (Series 100 10" table-saw & jointer 50's)& (early 60's 10" RAS) I have his 1967 Craftsman 12" RAS in the shop as well as his Craftsman shaper & Davis & Wells shaper & Belsaw planer. I know these tools are not what you would pick but thats ok. I just wish I had a bigger shop I now have almost 2 of everything.


Just remember you won't see me calling your kind of tools crap just because they don't meet my needs. In the case of my needs May I call them over kill?:eek::D

From looking at what my Dad had to work with to what the average hobby worker has now days all I can say they need to quit their whining. Of course this doesn't include commercial shops.

[Peter Quinn]

I think the best thing to come out of this post so far is Mr. OConnell's picture of that georgeous old piece of PM iron and that bandsaw fence! Last week I was trying to tell someone that pro woodworkers don't typically spend a sizillion dollars on some over wrought aluminum piece of strange love in search for the ultimate precision resaw fence, and you just posted the proof!

[Karl Brogger]

Oh, but if I had that zillion dollars I would. ;)

[Keith Outten]

I think some of the reviews here are way out of balance. If comparisons are going to be made lets keep things in the same perspective. Surely it is unreasonable to compare a $2,000.00 machine to a $850.00 machine just because they are both table saws or whatever :(

There isn't any sport in such a comparison nor any valuable information.

I own an original Grizzly 1023 table saw that is about 15 to 16 years old. As soon as I got it I ordered and installed a Bies Fence, the original fence didn't suit me but I didn't expect to receive a one thousand dollar fence on a $750.00 machine. My saw has been used for both hobby and pro work through the years. One of the jobs I did was for the York County School system, I produced about $350,000.00 worth of corner cabinets that had 62" rips at 22.5 degrees. Every one of the cabinets were cut on my Grizzly table saw and the joints were excellent. I know there were many days when my table saw ran almost continuously as we machined about $10,000.00 worth of 3/4" plywood at a time.

The saw has never been touched, still has the original motor and I can honestly say it has been a fantastic machine and it will still pass the nickel test today. I would bet money that there are other saws made by other manufacturers that are just as good in the same price range. I'm also sure that there are even better saws that cost two to five times the price of mine that are more accurate...but that isn't what I need for my shop or the kind of projects I build. I happen to know a little bit about accuracy and precision, years ago I was an ASNT Level III Examiner. Recently a professional carpenter inspected a 72.0" diameter template that I machined on my CNC router with his tape measure and told me it was about 1/32" under size, all I could do was grin knowing that he really didn't understand that his measuring equipment wasn't capable of inspecting my work. He brought a knife to a gun fight so to speak. I think that a lot of woodworkers try to work to tolerances that they don't understand and some purchase machinery that is more precise than necessary...for woodworking.

If your gonna rag on Grizzly or any manufacturer for the quality of a fence you might tell us which fence it was. I would guess that Grizzly has sold a hundred different table saws through the years and I also would expect that they have used at least 50 different style fences. If the performance of a fifty dollar fence disappointed you well I guess it did and I expect the owner got his money's worth. If you worked in a Professional woodworking shop that didn't have anyone who was capable of setting up or maintaining their equipment then it wouldn't matter what quality of machines they purchased. If they hired inexperienced woodworkers who didn't care about the equipment they used every day then a $10,000.00 band saw would most likely be unusable in just a couple of days.

.

[William OConnell]

I think the best thing to come out of this post so far is Mr. OConnell's picture of that georgeous old piece of PM iron and that bandsaw fence! Last week I was trying to tell someone that pro woodworkers don't typically spend a sizillion dollars on some over wrought aluminum piece of strange love in search for the ultimate precision resaw fence, and you just posted the proof!
Just today Ernesto ran 12" red oak through it for door veneers. I think he made 80) 3/16" y 84" pieces all well within a 1/32" I actually saw him smiling. Probably because I put a new Lennox blade on it. I can just tweak that fence with wood shims if need be. Resawing isnt rocket science really although Ive heard it described as such
I made a belt cover for the new (old Planer) so no one got caught in the link belts and off she went. Im still "Learning" that old machine but today we were planing veneered door staves with it ;). I only trashed one and that was operator error

[Chris Zenda]

I think this question needs to be more model specific, IMO some Grizzly machinery is made pretty well and some isn't so hot.

[Rod Sheridan]

To me Grizzly is like Norm, are they the best?

Absolutely not.

Are they crap?

Absolutely not.

Woodworking for me is a hobby, so I don't have to justify the cost/performance of anything I purchase or build.

I happen to like premium machinery, even if the fit, finish, performance of it is more than I need to make furniture with as a hobby user.

Need however isn't the issue, it's what I like to use that's the issue. I wouldn't be happy with something that doesn't have good fit. finish, excellent engineering and performance.

The General equipment in my shop is now having to share space with a Hammer A3 31 planer/jointer.

I looked at the lower priced combination units, they weren't up to the standards that I like.

Grizzly and Norm however have done a lot to popularize woodworking and the lower price of Grizzly machinery has also been a large factor in making this hobby more accesible and popular. For that, we're all grateful.

That said, comparing Grizzly equipment to premium machinery isn't fair to Grizzly, they make a product that provides good value for your dollar, which is probably their goal, and may be exactly what you want in a piece of machinery, however it isn't meant to compete with Felder, Altendorf etc.

Regards, Rod.

[Peter Quinn]

Keith Outten Quote: "I think some of the reviews here are way out of balance. If comparisons are going to be made lets keep things in the same perspective. Surely it is unreasonable to compare a $2,000.00 machine to a $850.00 machine just because they are both table saws or whatever "

"There isn't any sport in such a comparison nor any valuable information."


Sorry for any misunderstanding but it seems to me Grizzly, in their own literature, are comparing themselves to other machinery and asking the consumer to do the same. The 'Ultimate' this and the "Ultimate" that is written all over their website and catalogue, as are the words "add one of these to your shop and you'll know you made the right choice" and "best machine in its class". They clearly want to be compared to machines costing 2 to 4 times as much! If they want to be compared than they shall, and frankly when it comes time to spend my own money even if they don't want to be compared they shall!

It seems to me that where one falls on the Griz question depends more on an individuals needs than on Grizzly's machines. I am arguing against the suggestion that in any class of machine when compared Griz is 'just as good' for less money and the implication that you would be a fool to pay more for something else. When a vendor really wants to be compared they put the competitions product side by side with their own in the show room and let you have a look at both. Do they do that? Doubt it.


I don't consider a comparison of heavy industrial Martin/Northfield level machinery to something in the commercial/light industrial range ligitamate either. If your work requires heavy industrial machines then you buy them and nothing else will suffice. Different market.

Keith Outten QUOTE" I produced about $350,000.00 worth of corner cabinets that had 62" rips at 22.5 degrees. Every one of the cabinets were cut on my Grizzly table saw and the joints were excellent. I know there were many days when my table saw ran almost continuously as we machined about $10,000.00 worth of 3/4" plywood at a time."


I'm also not in the business of getting into some 'John Henry' contest
for sport. But if you'ld like to have a plywood race I'll fire up a 10' panel saw, machine all my parts and be on the next job while your still eating saw dust! That would be yet another unfair contest. Maybe we can find a third guy with a festool 55 and see how he does? After that we"ll each fire up our table saws and push wood through them for 25 years 9hrs/day to see how they stand up to that, because the PM66's I worked on didn't run continuously for a "few days", they ran most of the day for decades!

The last shop I worked in wasn't populated by machine bashing monkeys and slack jawed imbiciles (myself being one possible exception). It was a custom shop with highly trained mechanics who knew how to set up machines and treated them with respect. Machines were purchased with the expectation that they would be used daily for decades, and that they would hold acceptable tolerances with regular maintainence under these continuous duty conditions. Several Griz machines were tried and resold quickly. I mean who wouldn't want to get a $3800 performance for $1900? In that environment, "How good was Grizzly?"...Not very. In another shop they may be just the thing that's needed.

[Chris Barnett]

Have the Griz 1023SLW tablesaw and the 514X2 bandsaw. The 514X2 was a terrible mistake :(; was also looking at the 636X bandsaw at the store. Now I see that I really needed the 16 inch cut capacity of the 636. The 514X2 is a great saw, and would rather have the great saw in the higher capacity, along with larger bearings and beefier trunnion (the bear head cutout design in the wheels is just icing on the cake and not really necessary for my use :D).

[Daniel Parker]

I have a shop full of Grizzly machinery. I love all of their high end sanders, especially the wide belt 15". I also love my 2 hp Cyclone but would get the 3 hp just because i really push it. The 2 hp does well though. If you go with their extreme tools your getting a good tool. I think Grizzly has come a long way.

[Martin King]

I used to have a shop full of green bear stuff. Then I discovered
I could buy and restore old iron for about the same costs as buying
new. Once I started using 3 phase direct drive equipment I was
hooked and eventually replaced every shiny new machine with
mostly old Oliver equipment and never looked back. The machines
perform as well today as when they were built and are an absolute
joy to own and use.

Martin

[Bart Leetch]

I used to have a shop full of green bear stuff. Then I discovered
I could buy and restore old iron for about the same costs as buying
new. Once I started using 3 phase direct drive equipment I was
hooked and eventually replaced every shiny new machine with
mostly old Oliver equipment and never looked back. The machines
perform as well today as when they were built and are an absolute
joy to own and use.

Martin
OK so where are the pictures?????:eek::):D

[Martin King]

Here's a little taste of my latest resto:

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/cruizin31/front.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/cruizin31/back.jpg

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Wow...an art deco sander. Very nice.
-Jeff :)

[Bart Leetch]

Here's a little taste of my latest resto:

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/cruizin31/front.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/cruizin31/back.jpg

OK so wheres the dust?????:eek::):D

[John Carlo]

I've been very happy with my grizzly G0453 15" planer from griz. They have a lot of good stuff. My neighbor has the 1023 table saw and absolutely loves it. Both of these machines have a very big bang for the buck. Are you a hobbyist or do woodworking full time? Grizzly has some pretty big industrial machines like huge 24" planers and giant drum sanders that I don't know much about. If you reply with a list of machines you have your eye on, maybe someone here can give you advice.

I first bought a used Grizzly oscillating drum sander for my home shop and I find it better than the Jet I bought for my school shop. The Jet leaks oil.
I also bought one of the last of the American made Powermatic 8" jointers for home and it is a great machine. For school, I decided to update our 6" PM jointer and ordered the 8" Grizzly. It arrived in perfect condition and alignment and actually rivals my PM.

I'm about to add a 3rd shaper to my home shop. I have a new Delta 3 hp and a used Delta 1 1/2 hp shaper. I'm going to take a chance and go with the Grizzly. One, because of the price, two, because of my past experiences, and three because you get three spindles with it (1/2" 3/4" and 1") I got the 1/2" and 3/4 " with my Delta but I do not have a 1" spindle, though I have purchased some used 1" industrial cutters. We'll see if there are vibration problems as some have remarked. If so, I'll try "Link Belts" and even replace the bearings if necessary and still save a bundle. One thing for sure, due to the imports, tools have never been a better buy. Another sure thing is that the world's demand for cast iron will not subside. So don't wait too long as I did in your woodworking journey to buy the tools you really need. I paid $2900 delivered new for a 22" PM planer a few years ago and I can't believe what it sells for today.