Sharpening - Preferred Method To Re-establish Primary Bevel?

[Matt Martyn]

What is your preferred way to cut in a new primary bevel? I have 2 Veritas A2 plane blades that need a bit of work. The first one was originaly ground at 25* and I put a 30* secondary bevel (micro bevel) on it, and after a few sharpenings at that angle its progressing up the blade. Now I want to put it back to 25* again., so I'm gonna need to remove a bit of material to get it there. The second plane blade is also 25* but from the factory it was ground a degree or two out of square so the primary bevel goes almost half way up the face on one side and just a mm or so up the other. I'm using the Veritas MK2 jig, and when I put the blade in, it's always nice and square. For convenience sake, I want to square up the primary bevel for repeatable ease of sharpening with the jig.

So, here is the question. I have 220, 1000, 4000, 8000 water stones and a granite plate for flattening the stones, and lapping. I picked up the 220 grit water stone for this purpose, but the A2 steel just seems to hard for it. I have spent well over an hour on the first blade, and it really didn't do anything but wear the stone. I also tried some 180 and 220 grit wet/dry sandpaper on the granite and wasn't too successfull either. It cuts very slowly and the paper wears out quickly.

I don't want to use a grinder (gotta stay neander, eh haha), so the only other option I can think of is a diamond stone, or maybe oil stone? What does everybody else use when they need to hog off a bunch of metal from their plane blades accurately?

Thanks for reading my story and any help you can provide.
~Matt

[Mark Drayton]

Tormek wet grinder. Life is too short using waterstones alone with wider (plane) blades and the newer harder steels. I think they are best for honing rather than grinding back. After the Tormek, it's quick work honing using the Veritas Mk II and waterstones. Even quicker with the Worksharp 3000 although I think the waterstones leave a better edge.

Mark

[Mark Stutz]

This task is, IMO, a job for a grinder. Take your pick...Tormek,Jet, or other wet grinder, benck grinder, either 1750 (preferable) or 3000 (easiertoblue the edge), or ahand crank grinder (Neander!) If you have to do A2 by hand you'll probably have to go to 100 or even 60 grit paper, and even then it's going to take some time.

Mark

[Mike Henderson]

I use a DMT extra coarse stone and the LV MKII jig. Goes pretty fast.

Mike

[Eddie Darby]

I use a DMT extra coarse stone and the LV MKII jig. Goes pretty fast.Mike
Same here, except I use the MKI jig. :D

[Justin Grow]

I use a DMT extra coarse stone and the LV MKII jig. Goes pretty fast.

Mike

same here.

[Roger Bell]

If you want to use sandpaper, start with 80 grit silicon carbide.....180/220 is way too fine for rapid steel removal. I like norzon belts affixed to glass. Then you can use your waterstones.

[Steve Thomas]

What paper are you using? If it wears too quick, pick up a length of the good stuff, It'll cut quicker and wont clog and won't fall apart.

I re-establish angles all the time in the store for customers, I use a piece of 240, cloth back, Klingspour brand paper and it'll only take about a minute or so.

Papers are papers...

[Ron Brese]

This is the reason I have a Tormek and it is the purpose for which I purchased the Tormek. However the other thing you are dealing with in this instance is the down side to A-2 tool steel. Yes it has edge retention properties, however when faced with this task I think all that is gained with greater edge life is given back in grinding chores. With 0-1 you would be back to working in a fraction of the time it is going to take to get the A-2 back to primary bevel.

For plane irons the Tormek does not produce the level of edge I would want to work with, however for setting things back to standard bevel angles and giving you a nice hollow grind I think the wet grinding type machines are invaluable.

The other factor in this instance is the micro bevel. Micro bevels can reduce sharpening chores in the short term only to increase them in the long term when one, like yourself, decides to put things back to primary bevel. On a bevel down plane you could just carry on with the 30 degree as a primary bevel angle, however on bevel up planes the bevel angle has more of an effect on the actual cutting angle and is more critical to the performance of the plane.

Don't misunderstand my statements. I am not advocating one type of plane or tool steel is the more correct one to use, I am just pointing out the pros and cons of living with certain tool steels used in different configurations of planes. I believe this dilemma is why you are seeing more of a choice in tool steels these days. The guy that only gets some time in his shop on weekends probably doesn't want to spend most of the weekend sharpening and regrinding bevel angles and ultimately may be happier with irons made from 0-1 tool steel. Where as someone that works in their shop everyday and has a good regimen of sharpening standards worked out might gain some advantage from the A-2 plane irons.

One way to avoid this dilemma is to depend on the hollow grind to lessen the amount of metal removed to re-gain a sharp edge. In this way you would actually be maintaining the primary bevel angle and would only have to re-establish the hollow grind periodically.


Ron

[Eddie Darby]

The nice thing about diamond stones is that it does not matter whether it is O-1 or A-2 or HSS, the stones seem to handle them all.

[John Dykes]

I use the wide Duosharp coarse \ xtra-coarse stone. I also use this to help keep my Shaptons flat.

It works well. It works pretty fast too... But I'd like to try a grinder for a while and see how I like it, but not willing to invest $200 (grinder, good stones, tool rest, dressing method) in a trial period!

- jbd in a snowy Denver
(70 and sunny yesterday, 4 inches of snow this morning!)

[Quesne Ouaques]

I have three Veritas planes with the A2 blades. I use diamond stones followed by a very thick piece of plate of plate glass with carbide sandpaper and a honing guide. It's very easy and I literally get a mirror finish.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Matt

How you grind is dependent on how you plan to hone.

You don't say whether the blades are for a BU or BD plane. This may not be relevant for you, but it makes a difference for me.

On BD planes I prefer a hollow grind so that I can freehand the bevels on waterstones. On BU planes, where bevel angles are more critical, I prefer a flat bevel and then a honing guide to form a microbevel on waterstones.

For the hollow I have either a high speed grinder or a Tormek. For flat bevels I use a belt sander.

At the end of the day, what appears to begin with an elaborate plan, ends with as efficient and simple a sharpening strategy as possible.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Wilbur Pan]

One thing I've found using a Tormek to put a hollow grind on a bevel: because the radius of the Tormek wheel is about 9.5-10", the hollow is more shallow than if you use a 6-8" wheel on a grinder, so if you want a flat bevel surface, it doesn't take long to grind it out.

[Matt Martyn]

Thanks everybody for the info! Looks like the best way is with either a grinder or diamond stone. I think I will try some high quality 80 grit paper on my granite plate and see how that works, but I think I will probably invest in a course diamond stone for this purpose. That Tormek grinder looks pretty neat, that would be great for the primary bevel, and then finish up on the waterstones. Although, I dont think I have quite enough tools to justify it, just yet.

Thanks Ron for the info on the tool steels. Most of my planes right now are bevel up with the A2 steel blades. Next time I get another blade for a different cutting angle, maybe I'll look into one of the O2 blades.

Matt

[Matt Martyn]

Hi Derek,

Ya, I should have mentioned, most my planes are bevel up. What kind of belt sander do you prefer to use, one of those vertical ones? And I supose you just do it freehand on the belt sander?

Thanks.
Matt

[Dan Racette]

You could always pick up a hand crank grinder to put a hollow grind on your blade.

d

[Derek Cohen]

Hi again Matt

For a belt sander I use a 6" wide machine with a jig I designed that is similar to the one on a Tormek.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/beltsander.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/BladeHolder1.jpg

Use a 80 or 120 grit belt for the primary bevel.

The other bit of advice I'd like to pass on is that you should only buy blades with 25 degree primary bevels for BU planes. With the exception of a shooting board, I believe in adding camber to bevels. It is easier to camber a 25 degree primary bevel and add a secondary bevel of your chosen angle, than attempt to camber a high angled primary bevel. (I have an article on this, but cannot attach the link).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Quesne Ouaques]

Hi again Matt

The other bit of advice I'd like to pass on is that you should only buy blades with 25 degree primary bevels for BU planes. With the exception of a shooting board, I believe in adding camber to bevels. It is easier to camber a 25 degree primary bevel and add a secondary bevel of your chosen angle, than attempt to camber a high angled primary bevel.


I would like to second this very good point that Derek makes. Many people do not realize it, but it's a waste of time to buy (or to make) the 38 and 50 degree primary bevel blades for their planes.

Buy (or grind) a 25 degree primary bevel and then put a secondary micro-bevel on them at whatever angle you wish (38 degrees, 50 degrees, etc). Re-honing them then becomes much easier and less time consuming.

I had a long discussion about this with Peter at Lee Valley a few weeks ago during the Woodworking Show in New Jersey. He confirmed that the 38 and 50 degree blades are offered because it gives the "appearance" of a wider variety of blade angle options for the planes. In reality, however, when you get down to using the blades in practice, there is no good reason for having a 50 degree primary bevel.

[Jim Koepke]

That Tormek grinder looks pretty neat, that would be great for the primary bevel, and then finish up on the water stones. Although, I dont think I have quite enough tools to justify it, just yet.

There is an easy relatively painless solution for that!:D

I like my Veritas Mk.II power sharpening system. It cost a little more, but I feel it was worth the price.
I bought a spare tool holder and after the first time it was used, three more were bought. It is most efficient if one has a lot of sharpening to do. Five or more blades at a time seems to be a good balance to let one cool while the next ones are worked.

I do not put secondary bevels on my blades.

I also have a set of water stones for doing hand sharpening when something just needs a little honing. 220, 800, 4000 & 8000 are the grits on my big stones. I also have 1000 & 4000 slip stones.

Also have a very fine honing stone that was made for straight razors, but it can put a mirror on just about any blade. Once upon a time, I did not like shaving, nor did I like having a beard. So usually I would shave once every few months. When it got thick, a straight razor was the least painful way to hack it off.

I have oil stones, they seem slow, but get used occasionally.

Then there is loads of sandpaper and a hunk of granite for variety.

Each method has its advantages, just have not found them all yet.

jim

[Peter Tremblay]

I was thinking about the same problem a while ago and I did have (still do) the extra coarse diamond stone. It still took a long time to regrind a primary bevel in a piece of steel that large.

So I get a large (and very cheap for $5) hand granked grinder off a certain auction site. I put a norton 3X supercool 46 grit 8" grinding wheel on it with a grinding rest from veritas.

It is a great setup. It is almost impossible for me to get the steel even where it is hot to the touch and still the metal flies off the blade. With a light touch all it takes is seconds to hollow grind (if the secondary bevel is not too out of shape) I go to the 1K first then 4K then 8K. the disadvantage here is that with other stones you can go directly to the 4 or 8K but I chose speed of rough grinding over finish.

I highly recommend this setup if you have the inclination.

One more thing. the grinding stone only came with bushings to fit a 5/8" diameter arbor and the arbor (axle) on the hand cranked grinder is 1/2" so I posted in another forum that I was looking for that small piece of plastic, a 1/2" bushing. Sure enough someone had one lying around that they were not using but had not thrown out (I knew that there were others like me who don't throw out stuff like that) and they sent it to me. It worked great.

HTH

Peter

[Matt Martyn]

Thanks to everybody for all the great info! I ended up getting an extra course DMT stone, and so far it has worked well. I've only had the opportunity so far to do one blade, it took a bit of time but worked quite well. The diamond stone is nice because it stays sharp unlike sandpaper on the granite, and it will be great for puting a new edge on some knives I have.

Derek, I really like that belt sander setup you have! I think I will look into doing something similar. I saw your jig you made up for doing scrub plane blades. I have a scrub, and was not quite sure what the best way to grind it would be, but now I do.:)

I was a little leery about using a bench grinder, because it's just too easy to alter the temper of the blade. I have a few bench ginders (I do a good bit of metal fabrication) but the hand crank grinder would be a good alternatinve to keep it cooler, but I think I'd like to stay with flat grinds for now.

Thanks all!
Matt

[Dave Cav]

I use a combination of the Lee Valley grinding jig and tool rest on an ordinary bench grinder for gross metal removal (like establishing a new bevel or regrinding a chisel rescued from a flea market), and the Lee Valley belt sharpening machine followed up by a hard felt wheel and green compound for routine sharpening and honing. I use the flat side of the wheel to take the wire edge off the back. I have the belt and felt wheel set up turning away from myself, also.

I still use the Scary Sharp system for flattening backs and sometimes for the initial sharpening on a factory iron, but for the A2 irons, this takes way too much time. Also since I started using the belt sander/grinder and the felt wheel I don't bother with microbevels. I'm more interested in getting a fresh edge back on the cutter and getting back to work.

I used to use the Scary Sharp system, until I started teaching high school shop. That's when I started using the Lee Valley belt grinder. I needed a way to sharpen a lot of butt and lathe chisels and plane irons in a hurry and still do a decent job, and I didn't want to mess around with the bother and expense of the wet grinders or the new high tech sharpeninging systems. It works very well for me.

If you really want to stay Neander, but still be efficient, then get a hand cranked grinder, or better yet, two. Put a soft white grinding wheel on one, and a hard felt wheel on the other one. Hand grinders are still easy to find on auction sites or in secondhand and antique stores. I got one for $5 at an antique store, stripped it down, sandblasted it and repainted it Coleman Lantern green; it looks great bolted to a shelf.

[Mike Brady]

I prefer a method that:

A. Gets to the desired bevel angle as easily (quickly) as possible.
B. Achieves (A) with the minimum lost of blade material.
C. Result is accurate.
D. Cost is justifiable.

My experience leads me to the conclusion that 80 grit paper, preferably a power sanding belt cut and glued to a flat surface, achieves my goals without spending $400 for a Tormek, or $100 for a diamond plate. At this point, I move to water stones for a microbeveled cutting edge. Power grinders of any kind remove a lot of material over time, unless you are able to achieve a perfect setup every time before putting wheel to blade.