Rotary Engravers

[Brian Robison]

Anyone have any insight on rotary engravers?
Computer operated, software?

[Mark Winlund]

I use Xenetech, and Dahlgren before that. The software for Xenetech (in my opinion) is excellent, but maybe it's because I have used it for more than 20 years and am used to it.

Rotary engraving is on the decline, mainly due to the speed and versatility of lasers. There are a few areas where it shines, though.... namely burnishing and drag work. Some industrial applications such as phenolic tags are particularly well suited to rotary engraving.

Software is usually specific to the brand of engraver you own. General purpose drawing programs such as Corel do not work well with these programs except in limited ways. We have used Corel to create logos which are then transferred over to an old program named Casmate, and then sent to Xenetech. It is not the easiest thing to do and requires some experience to get it to work at all.

One particular difference between rotary and laser is that rotary engraving quite often uses single line fonts, something that Corel will not do at all.

Mark

[Scott Shepherd]

We have a Xenetech rotary as well. I'm afraid I don't share Mark's enthusiasm for their product. Well built machine, but I hate, and I do mean HATE that software. People like Mark and Roy lived it, knew Jay, and really helped build that product and they all loved it.

However, I HATE proprietary software driven systems. I've been forced to use them many times in the past in the machine shop trade, and it's always a small company, lots of code, and almost never current with current operating systems.

I think the biggest problem we have with it is that it's very old software, so it doesn't recognize newer files. I have yet to get it to import an .eps file, and I've also not been able to export an .eps file that anything else can use. Throw that on top of their "pay per font" font system and it makes me really unhappy.

But that's me coming in as a new user, not someone who's engraved and used the equipment for years, like Mark and others. They love it, I hate it.

I think everyone will agree that their problems compounded and things went into a software tailspin when Jay passed away.

[Mike Null]

I have a Newing-Hall machine with EngravLab software. This software can run the laser and the vinyl cutter as well.

Haven't had it long enough to say it's great but I'm pretty impressed. I am a novice though. If I had the proficiency I have with Corel I think I'd love it.

This version was $1600 a few months ago.

[Rodne Gold]

Rather than a rotary engraver , I would consider a semi largish format router type engraver like a 1m x 600mm type thing with a perske 3hp spindle or some other type of spindle but some power IS nice. Can engrave , profile and rout and along with your laser is a far better bet as in its versatility. You can combine it and the lasers capabilities to so some amazing stuff.
In general these machines will do what a rotary can and then some. We use Isels which are fairly rudimentary machines + a big tekcel and run off engravelab. You can pick up used isels for cheap. We have a few small rotaries like a Roland 2300 etc , but find they hardly used. The only machine i would consider for giftware etc is the gravograph iso 400 gift but its pricey.
What are/were you intending to branch into with the rotary?

[Brian Robison]

I'm looking at silver serving trays, zippo lighters, mostly things that look better rotary engraved than metal marked. I still need it to to some complex logos and such.

[Joe Pelonio]

Look at one of the smaller Roland engravers, like the 6"x8" for small items in low quantities. Probably under $3k, and I think you can find the manual for their software online to look at.

I have a customer that buys vinyl from me who uses a New Hermes, and has for many years. He bought a used laser but still uses the rotary to cut small signs/name badges, then engraves them in the laser so as not to have to clean the edges. I have heard many horror stories about his rotary going out and having support problems (he mainly does trophies in large quantity).

[George Elston]

We have a hermes 7000 and still use it somewhat for items too large for the laser. One thing you might consider for metal is ( not sure about other systems) the HERMES has a diamond drag for metal, but I must cut the hatch fill down to .001 to get an even fill for solid letters, graphics etc. ( outline no problem). Consider a 3" x 5" plate engraving at .001" per pass for a solid fill, and it's not fast. Last one we did we left it running and it was done in the morning. Also the enchant you use to turn the metal black is kind of nasty stuff. (Don't get it on you ;).

[Tony Lenkic]

Another more than happy long time Xenetech user right here.
It appears that people who have first started with Corel or AI programs do not like Xenetech program, on the other hand those of us with over 15 years under the belt just love it.
Brian, for items you have mentioned, dimond drag engraving is quite easy and fast process even with graphics and outline of TT fonts and logos.

[Hilton Lister]

I came late to Lasers and still use rotary engravers for 95% of our work. (General engraving shop). We use a Meistergram 1612 (Close to 10 years old) and for general work a Vision Max. Both are run by Engravelab, which after using Corel, seems clunky and slow. Together with the odd bug or two, I swear at it least once a day, but it is very effective (EngraveLab, not the swearing) However my right hand man has never used Corel and loves EngraveLab. it all comes down to what you're used to I guess.
T
he Rotaries are used for all materials from diamond dragged aluminium, engraving plastics right through to routed brass.

We still use manual Gravograph machines, a sand blaster and do a little hand engraving.

I would hate to have only a laser for what we do. It is not versatile enough for a general engraving business.

[Bill Cunningham]

For the odd bit of metal engraving I have had to do since getting the laser, I have used our good old trusty pantograph. Making a pantograph Logo master is not much of a problem if you have a laser.. I just use a vector cut, running out of focus to gouge a stylus trench in a piece of acrylic.. With the right distance, speed and power, (will obviously vary from laser to laser) you can dig a trench that can be used as a very accurate stylus guide, then tape it to the pantograph table, and use it the same as you would use any pantograph master.. Quick, cheap, and it works..

[Keith Outten]

Tell me what a rotary engraver will do that a CNC router won't do as far as engraving. Granted a CNC router is probably a bit large for most engraving jobs but I am wondering if I should start using my CNC Router for some rotary type engraving jobs like small metal plates and such.

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[bruce cain]

Can you get CNC routers with a floating head?

[Rodne Gold]

Keith , you can do wonderful work with a CnC type router , especially if it is a sturdy type with good leadscrews and a closed loop servo system.
Use engraving bits in your perske or whatever spindle.
There is one bugbear and that is speed of engraving , the spindle head etc tends to be heavy and running too fast makes inertia and servo corrections make the engraving look lousy.
We use our Tekcel to do some VERY fine work in brass, aluminium, stainless etc.
Key is the bits you use and how to grind them and if you have a mist coolant system or cooling , you can really go to town.

[David Lavaneri]

One particular difference between rotary and laser is that rotary engraving quite often uses single line fonts, something that Corel will not do at all.

That's changed with Corel X4, which has a number (8?) single-line fonts.

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

[Keith Outten]

Thanks Rodne, I will do a bit of experimenting shortly to see how delicate an engraving I can obtain with my router.

David, one advantage to a CNC router is that VCarve Pro will vcarve or engrave any true type font.

Bruce, I can't say that I have ever seen a floating head option offered on a CNC router.

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[Mark Winlund]

Tell me what a rotary engraver will do that a CNC router won't do as far as engraving. Granted a CNC router is probably a bit large for most engraving jobs but I am wondering if I should start using my CNC Router for some rotary type engraving jobs like small metal plates and such.

.

As has been mentioned here, the weight and responsiveness of a router head will generally make for very slow engraving. Rotary engraving spindles are usually less than an inch in diameter, and are frequently belt driven with a stationary motor. This allows very fast direction changes, something that is very much required for small letters and lots of text.

The other difference between most rotary engravers and routers is that the Z depth is quite often controlled by a nose cone rather than a specific Z axis setting. For drag and burnishing work, the light weight spindle is supported by an adjustable spring, and the cutter "rides" on the surface of the material, without the use of a nose cone.

For these reasons, and that rotary engraving requires slightly different software, it is unlikely that you would be happy with a router converted to an engraving machine.

I hope this helps. If you have other questions, I would be happy to pass on some of my experience.

Mark (used to be really fast with a pantograph!)

[Keith Outten]

Thanks Mark,

I think I am following your reasoning but I don'y have any experience with rotary engravers. I think I will experiment with my router for a bit, possibly I will at least be able to ask better questions after some success and or failures :)

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[Rodne Gold]

My Tekcel router is no slower than any of my other engravers, it's just not as fast as it can be with other stuff. You can get floating head spindles for most , but its a mission to change from the original spindle to one of these. It also doesnt REALLY help cos its the whole mounting assembly that has the mass not just the spindle. However with a floating head you can burnish and use a nose cone.
The Z axis thing makes it impossible to engrave anything but flat objects using the original spindle , but considering most routers will have a table thats milled by the head to be flat so controlling depth on flat stuff is easy.
Big advantage is the power and torque of the spindles which means you can take a slab of 3mm brass , engrave it 1mm deep in a single pass and then die cut it in a single pass. The other advantage is that you can work on BIG stuff.
Most guys running overhead routers also have fancy software , we use engravelab/profile lab and some other even fancier stuff like Artcam etc and can do some very sophisticated engraving work like 3d stuff etc.
Also a great tool for cutting stuff like shaped badge back ,we can rip thru big sheets of 1mm brass and produce 100's of backs for custom badges in an hour. I think a router type machine makes a lot more sense for expanding a business than a small rotary if you allready got a laser , it opens up many more new and profitable markets than just being able to engrave on different stuff .
One of the downsides of us using our router is that the z axis clearance is pretty limited , 120mm in my case.

[Matt Wheeler]

We have a Xenetech XOT table (circa 1988) and a Newing-Hall 300 (1993) retrofitted to use Xenetech's controller and software. The Xenetech is a tank, the Newing hall has shown more wear and requires more maintenance. For small items such as the zippo lighters, keytags, etc., the Newing Hall's clamping jaws work fantastic. For larger flat items, the Xenetech is far superior.