Frame Saw for Resawing?

[Brian Kent]

While saving slowly for a bandsaw, I want to make two frame saws.

The first will be a 12" turning saw with the plan and blades from Tools For Working Wood.

I am also in need of resawing a board for my wife's jewelry box and I don't want to put it off waiting for electrical solution. (I know, I could call my friends with bandsaws and get it done with an hour's drive, but what challenge is that?)

Does anyone have plans and a blade source for a re-sawing frame saw, with the blade in the middle between the supports? Note above, I do not have a bandsaw yet. Hence I don't have any old bandsaw blades to cut up.

[Sam Yerardi]

Woodcraft has a 'traditional-type' frame saw on close-out for aroun $40. Hard to beat that. I have one like it and use it at least once a week for resawing:

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=4608

Note that depending on the source you're referencing, who you're talking to, etc., the terms 'frame saw' and 'bowsaw' are interchanged a lot, and confusion is added to the picture because different countries, i.e. UK, Gremany, Sweden, sometimes use the same names.

[harry strasil]

veneer or frame saw pics here, http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=35432&highlight=veneer

get a replacement blade for a Sears or stanley or other new style miter box saw, its a web blade.

[Pedro Reyes]

Sam,

I have that saw, I have been able to resaw with it, but my technique must not be that good.

As I mentioned in another post, I don't own any power tools (by circumstance not choice) but this saw and in general resawing makes me wish for a bandsaw which I will likely get once I finish other stuff around my house.

That said, I do want to learn proper technique, or maybe I just need practice. Any pointers?

Here's what I currently do.

1.- Scribe line all around board
2.- Place board on face vise at about 45 degree angle
3.- Start resaw cut with backsaw or ryoba following line on both edge and endgrain
4.- flip board to another corner, until I get as far as possible from all 4 corners
5.- Finish with frame

But this gives me poor results, lots of waste.

Any help appreciated.

/p

[Brian Kent]

Harry, if I were a "web blade", what would I look like?

[Jim Koepke]

Here's what I currently do.

4.- flip board to another corner, until I get as far as possible from all 4 corners

But this gives me poor results, lots of waste.


This technique never worked for me.
I found once the cut was started, keep going works best.

From the woodworking display last weekend in Oakland, I also learned a clue from Kevin Glen-Drake. Make your stroke and check the tracking. He said you can correct if only one or two strokes are off, but if you go much further, it is almost impossible to get back to the line. So, make sure of your tracking on each stroke.

I do think for re-sawing a band saw may be best, a frame saw with a sideways blade may also work well. You do not need a band saw in order to buy a band saw blade.

One thing I have often thought of is to make a spring pole treadle saw if I ever get a bigger shop.

jim

[James Carmichael]

Whew, Harry, those are some nice-lookin saws, but you've got way too much time on your hands!

#7 in the pictures looks like a felloe saw, which is what I thought was the knuckle-draggers used for resawing.

[David White II]

Nice looking saws! What would you use for blade holders if you were making a bow saw like Tage Fride, with the blade that can rotate?

[harry strasil]

Harry, if I were a "web blade", what would I look like?

Brian, WEB is just an old time term for a saw blade that was stretched between some kind of wooden frame to tension the web/blade and give it stability. A Web can be most any narrow to wide blade of any length. Think of an ordinary hacksaw, it is both a BOW saw and a FRAME saw in the broad sense of things, with a WEB blade stretched between two points. A coping saw falls into this category also.

In days gone by the woodworkers were just that Workers of Wood. Money was tight (isn't it always) and they could go to any Hardware or General Store and purchase a Web(blade) sellecting one of suitable length, width and tooth configuration for their needs. Why buy a whole saw when they could use what wood was available to and their own skill to make the same thing. Making a frame or bow to hold the web is not rocket science. most anything will do. Even an illiterate person who is handy with their hands can do it.

Ordinary metal banding material (the usually black colored thin strips of metal used to contain bulky materials makes a decent Web/blade. All it takes is any means available to hold it while you use a small 3 cornered file to cut (file the teeth) in it. They do not even have to be accurately spaced to work. Set (bend every other tooth to the same side) and stretch it between a frame or bow.
How fast a given web/blade cuts is determined by the spacing (number of teeth per inch) and how wide the set is. Larger teeth have more of a gullet (the space between tooth points) to carry off more swarf(sawdust) from the cut, thus they have a tendency to cut faster. A wider set removes more material and is so doesn't cut as fast, whereas a narrow set does not remove as much material so it has a tendency to cut (depth) faster.

Narrow blades with a wide set work well for following curves, while wider blades with a narrow set remove less material but tend to follow straight lines better as they can't wobble around in the Kerf.


James Carmichael -- Whew, Harry, those are some nice-lookin saws, but you've got way too much time on your hands!

LOL James, you got that right, I am a Blacksmith by trade (55 years as a working smith) until I injured my back and am now permanently disabled. So what is time to me now. I made those saws when I was a working smith with woodworking as a hobby. Really what is the difference in spending a little time making your own tool and buying one (paying someone else ) to make it for you, you will probably spend the same amount of time working at some other job, maybe even one you hate, making the money to pay someone else to have fun making a tool for you. Which is more rewarding, saying I paid John Doe $??.00 to make this tool for me, or saying I made this tool myself for myself. I don't drink, I don't care for so called sports and am not a sports fan, which in reality is usually someone who cannot actually participate in the so called sport, but is a sedintary couch or chair second guesser yelling at some hulking mass of muscle or overly tall kid or grown up who is paid an unbelievable amount of money to do what they do best, chase some kind of ball around so other people can yell at them. I prefer to spend my time making things for my own pleasure.

Frame Saw, Framed Saw, Felloe Saw, Donkey Saw, Jesus Saw are all names used by different Crafts and or different Nationalities to describe the same tool. What's in a name, its what its used for and how well it works and how adapt a person is at using a tool that makes it work or not work. Frame Saw think of a web (blade) confined inside a frame. Bow Saw, think of a frame with the web (blade) itself being one side of the frame.


David White II -- Nice looking saws! What would you use for blade holders if you were making a bow saw like Tage Fride, with the blade that can rotate?

David, I am not familiar with the name Tage Fride, as I do not subscribe to Wood working magazines, so I have no idea what or who you are referring too. I do not try to emulate (hope that's the right word) other people or craftsmen, I am a high school drop out,(couldn't understand English Class) who prefers to do things my own way and make tools that work well for me. I do use old technical manuals (books) to try and learn what the previous generations spent generations learning and perfecting. I don't use other peoples drawings and dimensions and/or layouts for cutting things out and most times don't use their assembly methods, preferring to do things my way with joints and pegs sans screws and or nails. If I were to follow their detailed directions and/or cutting lists and assembly methods I would be copying their work and it wouldn't be my work and skill represented.

Sorry for the long winded post and hope I didn't step on anybodies toes with my personal views, but, oh well, I am not running for Political Office.

(The Views expressed above are the Personal Views of the Author and Do Not Represent the Views of the Forum Owners.)

[Sam Yerardi]

Pedro,

Sorry I didn't get back with you sooner. There are a couple things I've found that help tremendously when trying to use a frame saw for ripping. First, double-check the blade and make sure that the set is in fact for ripping. Next, sharpen the blade. I find that if I do this before I start on a set of stock, it greatly improves the cut and helps my shoulders. Next, before I rip the stock, I will cut at least a 1" depth cut on the table saw all the way around the piece. I usually try to go as deep as my blade will allow. The disadvantage in doing this is the loss of stock due to the large kerf. On the positive side, the cut groove makes it immensely easier for the frame saw to stay true through the cut. Plus the advantage that the table saw has removed material that you won't have to remove with your back, shoulders, and the framing saw :).

When I use the saw, I orient the frame saw so that it cuts on the pull stroke. It just seems to work better for me. if you're binding in the cut make sure you have enough set in the teeth. You may have to play with that a bit. When everything is right, you will be amazed that a ripping cut actually goes much faster than a crosscut. Obviously, the harder the material, the harder the effort. Maple is harder to rip cut than cherry, for example.

Hope this helps.

[Brian Kent]

Harry, I really appreciate what you called a long winded response. You answered my question and a couple that I would have asked if I had enough experience to know what to ask. Thank you for taking the time and passing on your fun of the sport of woodworking.

Brian

[Michael Hammers]

http://www.hyperkitten.com/woodworking/frame_saw.php3

http://www.hyperkitten.com/woodworking/resaw.php3


:D Fair dinkum mate!!!!! you will soon be Popeye!!!!

[Bob Glenn]

Harry, again, nice looking saws. I made a bow saw and used a cut up band saw blade for the blade.

Question. Do you use them on the push stroke or pull stroke? I have found they are much easier to use cutting with the pull stroke.

[Chuck Nickerson]

he was asking about your turning saws. I'm pretty sure he wants to know how you make your blade holders; pinch, pinned, etc.

David - FWIW, if you go the coping saw route (pinned blades), ToolsForWorkingWood sells the pieces that hold pinned blades and the blades. I've built three of their turning saws using these parts and they work great.

[harry strasil]

Bob, I push them to cut, whenever I tried to pull them all I got was bounce and took forever to cut something. Of course I have strong wrists.

Chuck I use most anything, some are turned from brass round stock with a ferulle in the middle and threaded on the outside end and I screw them into commercially made wooden file handles with a metal ferrule, on the big rip frame saw I use old hard oak squares with one end having a dowel thru it for a stop and the other square rounded and threaded with a threaded wooden Wing nut, I drill two holes x inches apart and bend a 1/8 steel welding rod to a sharp cornered U to the same specs and then slit the end of the square with a saw, drill a hole in the blade and push the U thru the holder and the blade and it it is inset into the wood so its smooth on the outside, one leg of the U is longer than the other,so it can be removed without tools. The sides of the frame saws are just shoulder mortice and tenoned into the yoke so they fit snug but not tight.

This picture shows the old method of ripping, using a frame rip saw on the push stroke and a pair of Saw Tables or benches.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/ripping.jpg

this picture shows me using the veener saw cutting on the push stroke.

http://traditionaltools.us/cms/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002-jrveneersaw.jpg

[David White II]

That's what I was asking, but I put the question poorly. The blade I want to use is about 26" long by 1.5" wide, maybe 8 tpi. Currently it's fixed to a frame, but if the blade could be turned to 90 degrees to the frame, it could rip much longer boards. Tage Frid was a woodworker, not a toolmaker, that I associate with this type of saw, but it's probably just a standard European bow saw. I don't think the holders at Tools for working wood would fit a blad this large.

[harry strasil]

only tried a bowsaw with the blade turned sideways once, couldn't follow the line because the hand hold was off the the side and affected the normal sawing rythm and procedure. Too me turning saws should have narrow blades so they can be used for their intended purpose cutting curves.

just think of a bandsaw with a narrow blade and how hard it is to follow a straight line with it, and all you haave to do is align the board with the blade. using a tool for its original intended purpose is the thing to do in my opinion. you don't cross cut with a rip saw and vise versa do you.

[Bob Easton]

Can a frame saw be used to resaw very long pieces of lumber?

The technique I've seen described several times uses the saw at an angle, turning the board four times to complete the cut. That certainly won't work for what I want to do.

I want to resaw long cedar boards (typically 4/4) for boat planking. The finished planks will be as thin as 1/4 inch, up to 8 inches wide, and up to 16 feet long. Getting two planks from one 4/4 board is the first goal. If thinner is possible, all the better. Every slice makes the boat less costly to build.

It seems to me the challenge is holding the workpiece steady enough to control the cut. Suggestions?

(No, I don't want to use electrons.)

[harry strasil]

turn 4 times, you lost me?????

[Bob Easton]

turn 4 times, you lost me?????

The technique of turning 4 times is described here: http://www.hyperkitten.com/woodworking/resaw.php3

But, nevermind that technique. It won't work for a 12-16 foot board.

Any suggestions for resawing a really long board?

[harry strasil]

Bob, first you will need to make you a special sawing stool similar to the one I am setting on in I think its post #15 in this thread except you will need an open center wide enough to set your long board in and with the ability to clamp the board to one end for stability, and 2 small auxiliary stands to support the board ends.

Next, you will need to make a real frame rip saw similar to what I am using in the aformentioned post, not a bowsaw with the blade set crosswise. Go find an old 4.5 or 5 tooth rip hand saw and remove the handle and take it to a machine or blacksmith shop and have them use a plasma cutter to cut it down to 2.5 to 3 inches wide. Smooth the cut up so there are no burrs. Sharpen the teeth so they are 90° to the blade on the front side and use a 3 to 5° angle on the front cutting edge, then set the teeth and after setting find a machinists type vise with smooth jaws and folding a piece of copy paper in half, clamp it in the jaws with about an inch sticking up out of the jaws and fold each side over onto the jaw tops and tape in place. Then carefully making sure you get all the teeth slip the blade down into the jaws and firmly clamp the blade to even out the set, the teeth point will cut into the paper and insure an even narrow set, which will make for less sawing (less material removed) and very little flop in the kerf.

Scribe a line all the way around the boardusing a knife or one of those wheel marking gauges, remembering to offset the line so you can follow the line with one side of the blade. If you get it started right its awfully hard to get off the line.

Start sawing and you might want to find a thin cushion to use on the saw table as you are going to be spending a lot of time setting on it. Don't worry about turning the board around of over unless you want to check the progress on the bottom side and you can use a mirror to do that. When you get to the other end, end for end the board with the saw still in the kerf and let the end stick out the end of the saw table, have someone else set on the saw table and using small wedges to keep the kerf open to avoid pinching, set on another stool and continue the cut toward you.

I have a 4 PPI frame saw that will break down, that I will loan you to use if you PM me with your address. With this particular frame saw in 3/4 soft pine I can cut about 6 inches per stroke if I force it some, but you will not be able to do that the way you want to rip your wide board.

[Bob Easton]

Fabulous answer Harry. THANKS!

Holding the board was what I was most curious about and you've given me some very good suggestions. The tips on making the saw are also helpful. (Dang! I just passed up a good saw auction last night.)

I'll pass on borrowing your saw. I would rather learn to make one than have to remember to send yours back. :D Thanks for the kind offer.

[David Keller NC]

"Can a frame saw be used to resaw very long pieces of lumber?"

Bob - Harry's given you a superb answer; I'll just add that re-sawing even soft wood with a coarse saw is really hard work - no big deal if you've got a 2-foot long drawer side, a much bigger deal if you're re-sawing enough for a boat. It might be worth noting that a frame saw was the solution for this before saw makers learned to draw out a long blade with enough strength to make a pit saw in the later 18th century.

And - if this is something you think you'll be doing for multiple boats, you might seriously consider building a sash saw accessory for a treadle lathe. The advantage is that because the mechanism is driven by your feet, and there's support and guides for the plank, you can feed it into the saw just the way you would on a powered bandsaw to keep the kerf on track without having to have a helper.

Of course, the most efficient way to do what you're asking without power tools is in a real pit saw. I saw a demonstration of this at Old Salem in NC, and it was flat-out jaw dropping how fast these two dudes doing the sawing could re-saw a 14-foot long, 12" wide plank of hard pine from a log.

[Jim Koepke]

Turning four times...

Someone, way back in the thread, mentioned their method of starting from one corner and then turning the board to another corner and making all the cuts meet in the middle.

my response was this never works for me.

jim

[Bob Easton]

"Can a frame saw be used to resaw very long pieces of lumber?"

Bob - Harry's given you a superb answer; I'll just add that re-sawing even soft wood with a coarse saw is really hard work ...

Oh yeah! I've already done a lot of ripping of 4/4 cedar flitches by hand, and I then go about dimensioning the boards with hand planes. I don't mind that kind of work.

Hmmm... pit saw??? Hmmm, some neighbors down the street have a pool they're no longer using. :)

[David Keller NC]

Sort of an aside the "hard work thing" - I just took a break from the shop where I'm building a tail vise. I swear this will be the last one I ever build - they're complicated PITAs. This one is built out of 16/4 rock maple, and my standard backsaws (12" L-Ns) don't have enough depth for the dovetails on the end. I recently purchased an antique Barstow steel-backed backsaw that's simply huge - 24" long, 9" high, and weighs about 7 lbs. I went with that one for the first cut, but though the weight certainly helped cut the cut done, it was a bit too rough for my taste as the teeth on this saw are somewhere between "rip" and "crosscut".

The only thing left in my arsenal was a Disston & Son (not the singular "son" - this is a really old saw) #7, 22" long, filed rip cut at 7 tpi. There's no back on this saw, of course, so I had my doubts because there's not much weight to push it through the cut. The rather amazing thing about the result, though, was the that the cut was arrow-straight, smooth, and went pretty fast. I strongly suspect this is the original set and sharpening on this saw - these old guys in the 19th century really knew what they were doing!

Really makes me wonder if they're old frame saws in existence that didn't get used (fell into a house foundation when it was being built, cabinetmaker passed away before he could use his new saw and his descendants were in other businesses, etc...) that could be studied to reproduce the set, fleam, and tooth shape.

[Bob Easton]

Success! Thank You Harry!

A while back, I asked about resawing long lumber with hand tools, for boat building. Harry Strasil wrote some great suggestions about both the type of saw to build and how to hold the workpieces.

I have now made a saw and worked out a way to hold the lumber.
http://www.bob-easton.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/resaw-with-bob-150x150.jpg
Earlier this year I built a pair of saw benches that had identical heights. Adding a pair of vertical rails from an end stretcher to the bottom of the bench top produced a slot for holding a board on edge. Then, a few wedges force the board up against the bottom of the bench top and center it in the slot.
http://www.bob-easton.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/resaw-bench-3-150x150.jpg
That picture shows a short (4 feet long) test piece that can be held with one bench. Setting up for lumber 16 feet long uses the other bench and more wedges.
http://www.bob-easton.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/resaw-16-footer-150x150.jpg
It works and will do what I want. Harry was right on with the suggestions, including "...and you might want to find a thin cushion to use on the saw table as you are going to be spending a lot of time setting on it."

For larger and more photos, see my blog entry (http://www.bob-easton.com/blog/?p=346) about resawing boat lumber.

THANKS Harry!

[Peter Evans]

Harry, you mention cutting the D8 with a plasma cutter. Not sure where I would get access to one of those, but I do have access to a big Supershear guillotine. Is there any reason why guillotining the saw blade could adversely impact the blade? I cut the hardened teeth off a cheap would-not-cut modern hardpoint saw, and he blade seems to be still nice and straight; I plan to make this into a backsaw.

Thanks
Peter

[Karl Newman]

does anyone know where Harry Strasil got those nice wide blades for his rip saw in the pictures?

[Steven Lee, NC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYzCXwwOF30

pretty good video, especially where he introduces and uses a kerfing plane. he has some videos showing how me makes a kerfing plane. I think with that and a regular hand saw you can resaw. I haven't tried it yet but it's on my todo list. Already have the kerfing blade from blackburn tools. I chose it because of the extra deep gullets but call or email first to see if he has any in stock, otherwise badaxe is prob quicker