Safety question

[Ryan Wilson]

As a gift several years ago I was given a SkillSaw XShop TS. While this has served it's purpose and did aided me in building some shelves and pieces for the garage my passion for wood working has since outgrown this piece of equipment. Since I've been trying to do more in the shop a few things have become apparent in regards to safety.

- I never really understood the importance of a DC system until now. The last two weekend have been spent jointing, planing, and sanding. It feel likes I've smoked a couple packs of cigarettes. I know this cannot be good for my long term health and the DC needs to be an immediate purchase (Griz G1029Z).

- I need a bigger TS to safely work on larger projects. Let me explain.... Saying the TS that I have now does not have a big enough table top is an understatement. The top is not flat. The fence in not accurate. The miter slots are not a standards size and therefore very difficult to make any jigs.

I have been doing allot of research and I have narrowed the choices down to the Grizzly G1023SLX and the Sawstop. I know these are in very different price points and I've also read enough of threads in here so I do not want to argue the merits of the ST technology. My questions are really surrounding the riving knife.

From my understand a blade guard serves two functions. First it has a "hood" that covers the blade to prevent hands from touching the it. Secondly, does it not also serve as a riving knife?
If so then I see the only advantage of having the riving knife is that it rides with the blade and is there even when the blade guard is removed. Please educate me if I'm misunderstanding this point.

I spoke with Grizzly last night and they explained that there is not an option to get a riving knife on this saw. They also explained that contrary to rumors posted in forums, there is no law or requirement coming that dictates all saw will have to come with a riving knife.

I really like the Sawstop but the price is a hang up. The Grizzly I could purchase now but I would have to wait for the funds for the ST. Has anyone had the experience of buying a Griz as an interim solution and selling it a few years later for an upgrade?
If so how do they hold their value, assuming they are in good condition.

I have great respect for the tablesaw and do know that any saw can be safe if used properly. I would appreciate some education on the safety values of tablesaw with riving knifes versus without.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hello Ryan, most saws come with a combination splitter/anti-kickback pawls and blade cover.

The splitter is the piece of metal behind the blade used to prevent the wood from rotating into the rear of the blade, and being ejected up and towards the operator.

The splitter also prevents the saw kerf in the wood from closing up and pinching the back of the blade, which would result in the wood being ejected towards the operator.

The splitter is also extended to mount the blade cover, and the anti-kickback pawls, which are designed to grab the wood if it tries to travel towards the operator.

The blade cover is self explanatory, it keeps your fingers from accidentally contacting the blade.

The problem with the traditional splitter, is that because it is higher than the blade, it cannot be used for non through sawing operations such as rebates, grooving or dadoing.

A riving knife, is used for the same purpose as a splitter, however it isn't higher than the blade. The riving knife tracks the blade elevation, so it is always just slightly lower than the top of the blade, allowing it to stay on the saw for non through cutting operations.

This is a safety improvement over having to remove your kick back protection for many common cuts.

The blade cover however is also an issue. If the blade cover is mounted to the splitter or riving knife, it is removed when you are performing non through sawing operations. This is a significant safety hazard, as you can imagine a dado cutter unguarded on the saw.

An overhead, or overarm blade cover is mounted on an arm attached to the far right corner of the saw table, and extends over the blade. The cover is large, and often has a connection for a dust extraction hose, which is desirable as a lot of sawdust is ejected from the top of the blade. A Google search of "Excalibur Blade Cover" should supply some further information.

Note that an overarm guard is independent of the splitter/riving knife and can be used for non through sawing operations.

An overarm cover will require a separate splitter or riving knife, I happen to have a Merlin one, with an Excalibur Overhead guard on my saw.

The most important safety advice is to always use a guard and splitter or riving knife whenever possible.


regards, Rod.

[Victor Stearns]

Ryan, Greetings.
I beleive that I too have heard that a riving knife was to be considered standard on ts's manufactured this year.
As my own ts is older it does not have the riving knife.
I also understand your situation relating to "do I purchase a Grizzly today, or save for the SawStop?". I personally, after using a SawStop at Marc Adams School of Woodworking, would save my money for the SawStop. I marveled at the workmanship of the saw, and safety it provides. That is not to saw that we cannot work safely with a ts, it just means more-piece-of-mind. I will sometime in the future purchase a SawStop. If for whatever reason I had to purchase something else, it will have a riving knife.
Victor

[Greg Hines, MD]

Ryan,

I am in the same boat as you, sort-of. I use a Shopsmith right now, and am very pleased with it, but when I have the space for it, I will be getting a Saw Stop. It is a very good table saw in its own right, even when you discount its namesake. The primary difference between a traditional splitter and a riving knife has to do with the height of it, from everything I can tell. The riving knife, being attached to the blade housing (I am drawing a blank on the exact term), raises and lowers with it, so that you can keep it in place for most cuts, where you would have to remove a blade guard. They also are much closer to the rear of the blade, so there is much less of a tendency for the kerf to close before it can contact the splitter. This is most dramatically seen when the blade is lowered, to cut 1/4" plywood, where the distance between the blade and a traditional splitter would be several inches.

Doc

[Eric Haycraft]

I spoke with Grizzly last night and they explained that there is not an option to get a riving knife on this saw. They also explained that contrary to rumors posted in forums, there is no law or requirement coming that dictates all saw will have to come with a riving knife.


I think that the grizzly rep misspoke a bit. While there is no law coming regarding riving knives, there are rules being implemented by UL. If a manufacturer wants a UL listing, they will need a riving knife..period. I think that new models must have them by 2009 and all older models must be upgraded by 2012. The mandate also requires that you be able to remove or replace the guard within 20 seconds. All good rules IMHO. Looks like UL wants $ to get a copy of the rules, so I can only link to an article about it as evidence.
http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/Riving+KnivesReport+From+AWFS+2007.aspx

My advice, get a riving knife. If a saw has one it very likely meets the 20 second rule also. Most people don't use their guards because they are a PITA to mount/dismount and if you can easily install it and remove it, you are more likely to use it when applicable. In my opinion, the riving knife and quick mount/unmount are paramount to improving safety since they don't get in the way and do actually prevent most kickbacks. The riving knife will probably improve safety in the range of 80 percent, and the SS takes you to 99 percent. (numbers pulled out of thin air)

Take a look at the PM2000 and the XACTA Deluxe. Both have riving knifes and quick change guards. Also, Grizzly has a riving knife 10" cabinet saw and a 10" 'contractor' that is basically a hybrid.

[Ryan Wilson]

Grizzly has a riving knife 10" cabinet saw and a 10" 'contractor' that is basically a hybrid.

Eric did you mean to say a 12" cabinet saw? I could not find a 10" Grizzly with a riving knife outside of the contractor

[Eric Haycraft]

Eric did you mean to say a 12" cabinet saw? I could not find a 10" Grizzly with a riving knife outside of the contractor

G0651 & G0623X (or X3)

Eric

[Ryan Wilson]

Oh look... right there in front of me :-)
Sorry for waisting your time. I should have spent more time actually looking on the site.
Thanks again for your input

[Todd Bin]

My only input here is that if you have in your heart that you want the sawstop (or any other given piece of equipment) then the minute you buy the other piece you will have buyers remorse. Of course the piece of equipment you really want has be be somewhat within your budgetary reach.

The riving knife on the SS is very nice. Easy to remove and install and is never in the way.

[Brent Ring]

The piece of mind after you have the Sawstop should be worth a bunch. After nicking my finger, I am much more safety concious, but...., I would probably be much more relaxed with the Sawstop, and not prone to nervous errors. Buyers remorse might kick in too! :0

[Ryan Wilson]

Thanks for the feedback. I guess I've been trying to convince myself that the Gizzly would be safe enough (again I understand if used correctly all saw can be safe). While I know that I will not be happy with anything less then Sawstop.

Next question: How does one go about convincing the wife? :-)

Well I guess my digits are important to my line of work... so maybe thats my angle.

Thanks for the input

[David DeCristoforo]

"Next question: How does one go about convincing the wife? :-)"

Well you could start by pointing out that the things you will make for her will be vastly better if you have the SS. For one thing, you will be so much more "at ease", knowing that your are that much safer, that your work will benefit greatly from the extra attention you will be thus able to lavish upon it. Also, the rate at which you will be able to produce these treasures will be significantly enhanced by virtue of your desire to use the machine of your dreams rather than have to face something less than what you really wanted every time you go into the shop. And of course, if this approach fails, there is always "parity". Ask her "Is there anything you would like (fill in appropriate term of endearment here)?"

YM

PS I do not recommend the "...my digits are important to my line of work..." approach which could possibly be met with "Well if you are that stupid, maybe you should not be doing this kind of work in the first place."

[Peter Quadarella]

When I was looking at Table Saws, I was sold on the Steel City one. I believe their new saw with the granite top has a riving knife.

[Kevin Groenke]

Ryan, it seems you know what you want and I doubt anybody here is going to tell you it's misguided. I think it's fair to say that the SS has replaced the PM66 as the benchmark cabinet saw. I could contend the the PM was never as good as a General, Oliver or Northfield though much more widely known. We've had 2 of the first 50 SSs since 2003 and I believe it is fully deserving of the top spot on the podium.

Convincing the wife shouldn't be any more difficult than it was to convince yourself. Google "tablesaw, injury" and click on the images tab... show the wife the pictures (and read some of the stories) then show her the hot-dog video. I suspect that unless it will cause significant financial distress, that should do the trick.

The other ideas are good to though you might be able to get it without any honeydew debt.

If it will take a while to save up for the SS, you might considersthe Griz 0661 hybridish saw w/riving knife. Apparently it isn't quite shipping yet, but it will be soon. You could probably turn this saw around in a year or two without losing more than a couple hundred $. Just don't get yourself into the saw in the meantime.:eek:
http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2008/Main/17

g'luck
-kg

[Brian Kent]

Eric did you mean to say a 12" cabinet saw? I could not find a 10" Grizzly with a riving knife outside of the contractor

Grizzly G0652 10" Cabinet Table Saw with Riving Knife

[Ray Knight]

I was in exactly the same dilema. (1) Buy a Grizzly 1023 now, or (2) wait until I had more money and buy the Sawstop, or (3) buy some other newer saw with riving blade, or (4) wait to see who makes some other new higher tech safer saw. or (5) keep struggling with my little Ryobi, with the out of alignment blade. I chose to buy the Grizzly 1023, get started, be careful, and buy a sawstop later, keeping the Grizzly as a outfeed table and dedicated dado saw. Couldn't be happier. The Grizzly is smooth, nickle, quarter, and penny will stand on end, but Damn It a dime won't. Maybe I ought to send it back. Actually still looking at the Grizzly 10 with riving knife, but can't get any feedback on it. Ray

[Bob Slater]

Anyone know of any safety retrofits for older General tablesaws? I believe mine is a 350 model. Just bought a rare earth magnet featherboard from Lee Valley. That and a pusher stick is all my safety gear. The table saw (I think it is 5 HP 230V) I inherited when I bought my garage and it is a little intimidating when you throw the switch.

[Jules Dominguez]

I have a Sawstop, am happy with it and would recommend it. One thing I'd advise before you make the decision, though, is to be sure you know the total cost, including Sawstop's charge for shipment to the dealer, the dealer's charge to deliver and set the saw up in your shop, a good fence, a brake cartridge for dados, a mobile stand, a dust collector if you don't already have one, maybe a 220V cicruit, and of course, sales tax. Those items can add well over $1000 to the list price.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Bob, I have a General 650.

Excalibur make a great overarm guard, and Merlin quick remove splitter, both of which will fit your saw.

I have both on my General, and put them on when the saw was brand new (I didn't even put the stock guard on, as I purchased the Excalibur and Merlin with the saw.

Regards, Rod.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I had one of those annoying guard holder / riving knife with pauls on my first table saw some 36 years ago.

I took that damn thing off and threw it away and never regretted it.

I recently got a fancy schmancy Austrian Slider and guess where the much vaunted riving knife is~? Yup, hanging on a nail. I'll put it on if I know I will have need of it such as when I'm ripping wood with wild grain or 2*4s.

The blade guard~? - - - - I don't know where that went.
From my perspective things like that just get in the way and because they are in the way they are more likely to create a dangerous situation than they are to protect against one.

So I don't use 'em.

[Bob Slater]

Hi Bob, I have a General 650.

Excalibur make a great overarm guard, and Merlin quick remove splitter, both of which will fit your saw.

I have both on my General, and put them on when the saw was brand new (I didn't even put the stock guard on, as I purchased the Excalibur and Merlin with the saw.

Regards, Rod.

Thanks Rod,l I'll have a look via google.

[Shawn Honeychurch]

Next question: How does one go about convincing the wife? :-)

Well I guess my digits are important to my line of work... so maybe thats my angle.

Thanks for the input

I would assume that your "digits" are important to her as well.