How do you build your drawers?

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

I've been a fan of Norm for years. It kills me to see how he builds his drawers, however. He uses dovetails for the front, which is great, but uses an ordinary lock-dado for the backs.....then he holds them together with brads... Sacrilege! My view is if you're going to all the trouble of making dovetails, why cut corners on the backs. Additionally, it involves another whole setup. I think it would be more efficient to cut dovetails on the back as well. Which brings me to my next point, why not instead forgo dovetails and use a lock miter bit.

I discovered this joint over 10 years ago in Jim Tolpin's book, "Building Traditional Kitchen Cabinets" (http://www.amazon.com/Building-Traditional-Kitchen-Cabinets-Completely/dp/1561587974/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203880702&sr=8-1) , and have been using this method to build drawers ever since. This book was my bible for building cabinets, if you are considering doing it yourself, but don't know where or how to begin, I recommend this book highly. But I digress.

Now when I say build drawers, I mean for kitchen cabinets, vanities and shop cabinetry. For building period pieces, handsdown, dovetails are the way to go.

The great thing about the lock miter is the setup for each corner. If you need a drawer 21 3/8" wide and 22" deep you cut the sides to those exact measurements. No further calculations are necessary as with a lock rabbet or 1/2 blind dovetails, for example. And when I'm making repetitive tasks like kitchen cabinet construction, minimizing mundane calculations reduces mistakes. Once you get the router table setup correctly, it's just a matter of pushing the sides through the bit, whether it's 1 drawer or 20...it's all one setup. I use 1/2" stock, set in dados for the bottoms, unless the drawer is really small. This makes the drawer even stronger, especially in a down shear situation. I hold each drawer together with 2 webbed band clamps. BTW, I rip the drawer sides slightly wider then I need. After the glue sets up, I cut them to height on the table saw.

Anyhoo, that's how I make the majority of my drawers, how do you do it?

[Jim Becker]

Half-blind dovetails in 1/2" poplar is my normal drawer method and material.

[David DeCristoforo]

For many years now I have used a simple rabbet and groove joint on kitchen drawers and/or any drawers that will be mounted on "mechanical" glides. With the strength of modern glues and the minimal strain on drawers running on Accuride or Blum glides, the drawers are plenty strong. However, for "fine" work I'm with Jim on the dovetails.

As to the joints on the backs of the drawers, that depends on how I'm making the DTs. If I'm using a router jig, I DT the backs too because the jig is already set up and it's easy. But if I'm cutting the DTs by hand, it's a lot more work and the backs really don't benefit that much from DTs so I will often use a simple dado to let the backs into the sides and (a la Norm) simply glue and pin these. This is, in fact, a very acceptable method of drawer construction and you will find it on many of the best examples of fine traditional furniture making. Of course, in "the old days" they did not have pin nailers so the nails were hammered in. On the very best work, I will hand cut DTs for the backs but they are generally much less "refined" than those on the front.

YM

[Matt Meiser]

For cabinetry drawers, I've been using Mark Singer's pocket screw method and have been pleased with the results. It provides for pretty easy measurements when using 1/2" material--sides are exactly the overall dimension and front/back are exactly 1" smaller. You do need an applied front though.

[frank shic]

metaboxes from blum all the way! fast and strong, just require a little bit of researching of 32mm cabinetry.

[Sam Yerardi]

If it's fine furniture like period pieces I'll do dovetails front and back, usually pine or poplar. I've been wanting to try ash for the sides & back.

[Fred Voorhees]

Half blind doves in the fronts most usually, unless it will be installed in a utilitarian piece, then something a little less time consuming and easier, though with the Leigh D4, dovetails aren't that difficult. I almost always go with a simple dado for the back of the drawer. If given the choice, I will always go with poplar for the drawer carcasses.

[Kevin Groenke]

Obviously the decision is highly dependent upon the design, quantity and quality of the piece.

If it's an heirloom or a serious commission, it's usually hand-cut DTs front and back. Y. Poplar, S. Maple or R. Alder often for secondary woods. 1/4" Birch "ProPly" (7 ply underlayment) drawer bottoms.

If it's a more utilitarian piece but should look good, it's DTs front and a dado in the back.

I usually use sliding/french DTs (dado in back) in cabinetry, though construction is sometimes influenced by whether the drawer fronts are flush or overlay and what if any slides are employed. I've made a vacuum template for the sliding DTs that makes them easier than spit. I find the invisibility of the joint and the absence of duplicate drawer fronts nearly as elegant as DTs.

[Joe Chritz]

1/2 blind dovetails in baltic birch 1/2" or 1/2-5/8" solid (usually poplar) material.

I made a bunch of drawers for my shop with a lock miter but I found the Leigh is almost as fast and easier to assemble.

1/4 dado buried in a tail (or is it a pin) so it isn't seen from the front and the back is cut short (to the top of the dado). Assemble the sides, slide in the bottom and staple the back of the bottom.

Joe

[richard poitras]

Matt, can you specify more on Mark Singer's pocket screw method for making drawers?

[Matt Meiser]

I thought Mark had a detailed post on them, but there are some pictures in this post (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=255989&postcount=8)by him. Basically you put pocket holes on the front and back of the drawer with screws into the sides. The front ones get hidden by a false drawer front and the back ones can't be seen unless you remove the drawer. The result is plenty strong and very quick. In fact, I just used it today to build 5 pullout trays, which are completely finished except for the false fronts which are have the first coat of paint drying right now.

[Craig D Peltier]

I just pulled apart my washer dryer room drawers today. Granted this is in a tract home neighborhood built in 92. The draws were butt jointed and stapled together with no glue.:confused: There was a dadoe to accept bottom but no dadoed face. Just a piece of ply wedged in between the two sides and once bottom was in it was stapled through the bottom. Thats down an dirty.
Anyways my draws I use rabbetts with false fronts. Nailed and glued.On cabinet type projects or where mechanical slides are needed. Its been plenty strong for me.

[J. Z. Guest]

For many years now I have used a simple rabbet and groove joint on kitchen drawers and/or any drawers that will be mounted on "mechanical" glides. With the strength of modern glues and the minimal strain on drawers running on Accuride or Blum glides, the drawers are plenty strong.

Yoshikuni - with mechanical roller glides, the joints actually need to be stronger. The drawers tend to slam open and closed, and with more speed. The contents of the drawer hit the drawer front & back with each high speed slam.

IMO, there's nothing wrong with a dado in the back, as long as it is set forward in the drawer, so it actually provides some mechanical strength.

Lock miters are neat, but I favor methods that don't also need a false front. Lock miters would be ideal for inset drawers, as that would take advantage of the hidden joint.

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

I've made drawers using all of these methods except the pocket screws. I know if you all saw me demonstrate the lock miter, you'd be changing your tune very quickly. (As I said in my first post, drawers for cabinets not period pieces or fine furniture.) Give it a try.

[George Bregar]

All of the above. If I want strong, quick and easy, I pull out the Kreg jig.

[Richard Dooling]

I generally use a sliding or French dovetail to join the sides to the front and a dado for the side to back joint. I like this combination of (relative) ease, strength and appearance.

[Mark Singer]

For fine furniture I hand dovetail fronts and backs. Sometimes half blind and sometimes through doves. Also variations like houndstooth etc. On these there are no mechanical slides , just wood to wood and it is a nice feel. Drawer bottoms are solid wood no plywood.

For cabinets that are more production in quality I use a Kreg Pocket screw connection that is strong and clean and works well with metal slides and drawer fronts. Sides are usually appleply or baltic birch . I have also bought very nice pre made drawer sides that are veneered , caped and grooved from States at Weber Plywood.

[Tim Lynch]

Hi Jim,

I put this out a while back...

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=68368

I wonder if you have any tips on the process and what you might do differently.

I made another 8 drawers with this set up and tried scoring the plywood w/ a straightedge and razor knife and it indeed eliminated the tearout that I was experiencing.

Thanks,

Tim

[David DeCristoforo]

"The drawers tend to slam open and closed, and with more speed. The contents of the drawer hit the drawer front & back with each high speed slam."

You must have kids.....

;)
YM

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

Tim, I love the idea of using an auto feeder. how do you like it? Is that a shaper? And cutting the holes first to make 1/2 moons later is genius! To address the tearout, I use a backer board but that even doesn't elimate problem totally. That's why I make drawers taller then cut off ~1/4" top and bottom on TS post glue up. Comes out whizzer. But of course you can't do that when your cutting half-moons.

[Tim Lynch]

Hi Jim
Yes, that's an older Reliant 3HP shaper w/ a Delta fence and baby stock feeder. I love the feeder and wouldn't be without it. It's especially helpful when running stock vertically and makes everything seem a lot safer.

I like running larger panels and then ripping them to size afterward...it addresses the issue of blowout exiting the cut... just a leave a little extra on the big panel and cut it off.

I think if I had to put individual pieces through (say for solid stock) I would use a sled instead of the feeder. Of course, then I'd have to make myself a vertical sled too...

Curious how you do it?

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

Hi Tim, Yup, I just use a primitive vertical sled. Just 2 pieces of 4" plywood stock screwed toegther. One lays horizontally on top of the fence and the other screwed vertically to front of other...that's the backer/ push piece. Then I use a feather board to keep work piece tight to fence.


Hi Jim
Yes, that's an older Reliant 3HP shaper w/ a Delta fence and baby stock feeder. I love the feeder and wouldn't be without it. It's especially helpful when running stock vertically and makes everything seem a lot safer.

I like running larger panels and then ripping them to size afterward...it addresses the issue of blowout exiting the cut... just a leave a little extra on the big panel and cut it off.

I think if I had to put individual pieces through (say for solid stock) I would use a sled instead of the feeder. Of course, then I'd have to make myself a vertical sled too...

Curious how you do it?

[Michael Wildt]

Hi,

Now that we have all the drawer experts on this thread I want to get some guidance on a project I have in mind. We have some build-in cabinets in the basement. They only have shelves, no drawers. So I was thinking of converting on of them. The drawers will be, rough measurements, 22" deep and 32" wide. I'm planning on using them with some internal dividers for CDs and DVDs.

Due to their size I'm considering using 1/2" BB ply, but with the internal dividers in, potentially, hardboard I'm not sure if the case should be increased to 3/4". That would allow me to dado some groves for the dividers. I would leave the bottom 1/2" and wasn't planning on adding any bracing for that. Bottom would be dado'ed in as well. I have also considered the Leigh jig for dovetails ;-) (nice excuse to get one).

- If using the miterlock router bit should I also nail or screw the drawer together ?
- Any recommendation on the brand of router bit for this application, sure many out there.
- If attaching a drawer front how can that be done such that the screws are, somewhat hidden ?

Thanks,
Michael
(Wood novice)

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

Mike,

No nails are necessary. I use 2 Pony band clamps, one on top edge and one on bottom edge. I use the included metal corner brackets too.

I have 2 lock miter bits: a 3/4" I got from CMT (now Jesada) and a 1/2" from Rockler. Bothe are excellent. I think most mfgs. make them it's all personal preference.

I attach the drawer fronts using Blum drawer front adjusters (http://wwhardware.com/catalog.cfm/GroupID/Cabinet%20Drawer%20Slides/CatID/Slide%20Accessories/SubCatID/Accessories). It's an ingenious method. First you drill stopped holes in backs of drawer fronts with (metric) forstner bit, then you drop in metal templates in holes you just drilled. Next place fronts on installed drawers and press in with hands. These templates have centers that mark spot where to drill holes on drawers. Remove templates then hammer in adjuster inserts, screw onto installed drawers until barely tight, close drawer and here's the cool part: There's a floating nut inside insert. you can wiggle fronts up, down and laterally up to 3/16" until the reveal is just right, open drawer and fully tighten screws. 1 picture is worth a thousand words. (http://wwhardware.com/media/products/instructions/B295_100.PDF) I've only now just recently watched Norm use this method on his current kitchen cabinet series (I think it was the island episode).
But again, I got this idea along with using the lock miter bit many years ago from Jim Tolpins "Building Traditional Kitchen Cabinets" (http://www.amazon.com/Building-Traditional-Kitchen-Cabinets-Completely/dp/1561587974/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203880702&sr=8-1) Tons other tips and jigs I got from this read...can't say enough about it. A must have for all considering the daunting task of kitchen cabinet design and construction or even smaller projects.

Side note: When puchasing drawer front adjusters, you also need to buy 1. 20 mm forstner bit if you don't have
2. enough templates for as many adjusters you'll have in 1 drawer (usually 2)
3. screws for your specific width

[Ed Peters]

The great thing about the lock miter is the setup for each corner. If you need a drawer 21 3/8" wide and 22" deep you cut the sides to those exact measurements. No further calculations are necessary as with a lock rabbet or 1/2 blind dovetails, for example. And when I'm making repetitive tasks like kitchen cabinet construction, minimizing mundane calculations reduces mistakes. Once you get the router table setup correctly, it's just a matter of pushing the sides through the bit, whether it's 1 drawer or 20...it's all one setup. I use 1/2" stock, set in dados for the bottoms, unless the drawer is really small. This makes the drawer even stronger, especially in a down shear situation. I hold each drawer together with 2 webbed band clamps. BTW, I rip the drawer sides slightly wider then I need. After the glue sets up, I cut them to height on the table saw.

Anyhoo, that's how I make the majority of my drawers, how do you do it?

That is exactly how I have been making drawers for the last 4 years. In fact, I have my lock joint tool permanently mounted in a router so I can just drop it in the table without the need to fiddle with the depth. Simply lock in the fence with dowel locators in holes drilled for both fence settings. All joints including the seams for the bottom are glued making a drawer of superior strength and the 1/2" baltic birch really is attractive when sealed. Oh, there is one exception. I only clamp long enough to send in a few brads to secure the joint until the glue cures.

Ed

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

That is exactly how I have been making drawers for the last 4 years. In fact, I have my lock joint tool permanently mounted in a router so I can just drop it in the table without the need to fiddle with the depth. Simply lock in the fence with dowel locators in holes drilled for both fence settings. All joints including the seams for the bottom are glued making a drawer of superior strength and the 1/2" baltic birch really is attractive when sealed. Oh, there is one exception. I only clamp long enough to send in a few brads to secure the joint until the glue cures.

Ed

Ed, Glad to see I'm not alone in my drawer making! Your dowel locator idea is intriguing. Can you elaborate on that or even snap some pics? After I have mine all set up by trial and error, I run some test blocks through for future templates. Although it just gets me close to final setup height, as each sheet of plywood can be different thickness and bit height needs to be retweaked. I like your idea.

[Steven Bolton]

This may have been asked, but is the lock mitre joint strong? I imagine there is quite a bit of gluing surface.

I have seen router companies that will see a white plastic set up for these type of bits. Do they help?

thanks

Steve Bolton

[J. Z. Guest]

I've made drawers using all of these methods except the pocket screws. I know if you all saw me demonstrate the lock miter, you'd be changing your tune very quickly. (As I said in my first post, drawers for cabinets not period pieces or fine furniture.) Give it a try.
Jim, next time you're making drawers, why not videotape it and put it up on YouTube? Then we CAN see you make them.

I've read that if you have to make more than a couple, once you're set up for lock miters or drawer-lock joints at the router table, it is pretty damned efficient.

So I do believe you, it's just that I will probably never make enough drawers that I'd prefer it over dovetails. Dovetails are good & strong, plus there's just something beautiful about them. My wife prefers dovetails, THROUGH dovetails even, so I think think that pretty much has most of the decisions made in furniture for my place!

[Denny Rice]

I think the reason Norm only cuts dovetails on the front of his drawers is two-fold. Number one is the front of the drawer reeives a lot more stress from the opening and closing of the drawer than does the back. Think about it you are pulling with your hand the front of the drawer either with a knob or other device and that puts a lot of strain on that joint. The second reason, and I might be scorned for saying this but how often do we pull a drawer completely out to where we see the back part of the drawer.

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

This may have been asked, but is the lock mitre joint strong? I imagine there is quite a bit of gluing surface.

I have seen router companies that will see a white plastic set up for these type of bits. Do they help?

thanks

Steve Bolton

Steve, The lock mitererd drawer is extremely strong. You'd be impressed with how monolithic they seem when handled. No racking or creaking whatsoever.
I've seen these plastic setups as well. As I said in my last post above, I use a scrap piece of plywood, cut about the same size as those plastic doodads...and keep it in my router table drawer. works just as good.

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

Jim, next time you're making drawers, why not videotape it and put it up on YouTube? Then we CAN see you make them.

I've read that if you have to make more than a couple, once you're set up for lock miters or drawer-lock joints at the router table, it is pretty damned efficient.

So I do believe you, it's just that I will probably never make enough drawers that I'd prefer it over dovetails. Dovetails are good & strong, plus there's just something beautiful about them. My wife prefers dovetails, THROUGH dovetails even, so I think think that pretty much has most of the decisions made in furniture for my place!

Jeremy, Not a bad idea....I'll see what I can do my next drawer run. If not video, at least I can take some pictures.

[Michael Wildt]

Hi Jim,

Thank you for the explanation, makes perfect sense. I assume the plastic front adjusters must hold up pretty good since they are 'only' pressed into the drawer front ? Like a potential drawer handle may not get screwed into the drawer it self only the front.

Based on my drawers 22" deep and 32" wide any recommendation on BB thickness ? should I go to 3/4" for the sides ?

Thanks,
Michael
(Wood novice)

[Tim Thomas]

I'm really interested in the pocket screw method of drawer construction. It looks very strong and it seems that you wouldn't need any clamps during assembly. Am I right about the clamps thing? I would think that once you drive in the screws that there would be no need for clamps to hold it until the glue dries.

Thanks to everyone for sharing their favorite techniques. I have a kitchen remodel in my future and I'm definitely going to be making a LOT of drawers.

[Roger Warford]

Forgive a newbie for intruding on this discussion, but I'm surprised there is no mention of box joints. Are they a poor choice for some reason?

[Joe Chritz]

Box joints are fine.

1/2 blind dovetails don't need clamps if properly milled. I machine them snug (a palm smack to close) and usually pop in a couple staples from the front and back then set it aside to dry. Obviously with applied fronts only.

One advantage to box joints is that it is easy to make a jig to cut them with a stack dado or router and it is free.

Pocket screw should be stronger than butt joint and brads and would most likely hold up for a long time. Alignment could be a problem since it often wants to shift when screwed together.

Joe

[David DeCristoforo]

"...there is no mention of box joints. Are they a poor choice ...?"

Technically speaking, yes they are a poor choice, at least for connecting the sides and front since they offer no resistance to the pull on the drawer front. That's the whole point of the DTs. But with their large amount of gluing surface and the durability of modern adhesives, box joints would probably hold up for a very long time.

YM

[Paul Johnstone]

I do it the same way as the OP.. I use the drawer lock mitre joint on the router table. Although I usually put a few staples in to hold it as well, as I have kids that hang on the drawers.. I tried a few with glue only.. most made it, but one didn't, so I started stapling them to help reinforce the joint.

[Dixon Peer]

Half blind dovetails front and back, 1/2 to 5/8" poplar or maple, 1/2" prefinished maple ply bottoms, Accuride 3132EC glides (undermount, not visible).

[Dave Falkenstein]

I am going to go contrarian here. When I make drawers, I use a drawer lock bit. However, I have installed hundreds of drawers from Home Depot kits that are made with melamine and use BUTT joints with two screws in each joint - no glue. The combination of melamine and butt joints often makes a woodworker cringe. I have NEVER had a call from a client saying their drawer fell apart, and I have been doing these installations for over 15 years.

I will hasten to add that a drawer made with a nice looking joint - dovetail (best), box (good) or drawer lock (OK) - is a better looking joint, and no doubt a stronger joint than a glueless butt joint. However I doubt, from my own experience, that strength is really much of an issue - they all seem to be more than strong enough.

[Gary Keedwell]

I am going to go contrarian here. When I make drawers, I use a drawer lock bit. However, I have installed hundreds of drawers from Home Depot kits that are made with melamine and use BUTT joints with two screws in each joint - no glue. The combination of melamine and butt joints often makes a woodworker cringe. I have NEVER had a call from a client saying their drawer fell apart, and I have been doing these installations for over 15 years.

I will hasten to add that a drawer made with a nice looking joint - dovetail (best), box (good) or drawer lock (OK) - is a better looking joint, and no doubt a stronger joint than a glueless butt joint. However I doubt, from my own experience, that strength is really much of an issue - they all seem to be more than strong enough.
I agree, Dave. Dovetails were used to hold the drawer together because a long time ago they didn't have modern glue or fasteners.
Gary

[Tomislav Biric]

...my wife and I having surrounded ourselves with children of our own making (a fun and inexpensive hobby that somehow got out of hand)* I have to say that I hate the melamine/butt joints in our kitchen cabinets.

About half of our drawers have broken over the years - I've resorted to placing 1 x 1 glue&screw blocks in the front corners. At some point I'll replace the whole drawers (a task that always seems to get de-prioritized).

They would probably for fine for kitchens in houses without kids in the family, without kids that visit, and that won't ever be sold to people with kids...you get the point.

~tomislav

*paraphrased from a book by Patrick McManus

[Karl Brogger]

I agree, Dave. Dovetails were used to hold the drawer together because a long time ago they didn't have modern glue or fasteners.
Gary

Dovetails also adds surface area to glue to along with the mechanical joint.

[Gary Keedwell]

Dovetails also adds surface area to glue to along with the mechanical joint.
I know...but check out all the old drawers in antiques and you will see no glue holding them together.
Gary

[David DeCristoforo]

"Dovetails were used to hold the drawer together because a long time ago they didn't have modern glue..."

Indisputable fact. "Back then" when the best glue known to man was animal hide glue, the question was not "if" the glue would fail but "when". Mechanical interlocks were a necessity.

YM

[Matt P]

Yes, I will be heretical here and state that, aside from the beauty of dovetails and other joints, modern glues have eliminated the *need* for such joints. I lately have been using simple miter joints for jewelry boxes, and hear many people warn that they're not strong. Well, when using modern glue, and considering it's a JEWELRY BOX (i.e. very little force put on it), miters I think are just fine. There was a FWW mag article (Mar-Apr 1998) that discussed a guy who built a 2x2 mitered/glued box, and basically they beat the heck out of it, jumped on it, etc.. no problem with the joints.

[Joe Chritz]

You see tons of drawers in kitchens with pocket screws or just butt joints and brads. The deciding factor in those is generally bottom line not quality.

I can do a whole kitchen of drawers (12-14) front and back with a 1/2 blind dovetail jig in a few hours so it is pretty much all that I do anymore.

However, dovetails pretty much limits you to baltic birch ply or solid wood. If you want prefinished or melamine you need to use something else. Rabbit, dado, pocket screw or butt joint.

I am still amazed whenever I get to look at good antiques. Especially a room full of trim or raised panels that were done by hand. The skill of some of the old craftsmen was truly amazing.

Joe

[John Stevens]

Yes, I will be heretical here and state that, aside from the beauty of dovetails and other joints, modern glues have eliminated the *need* for such joints. I lately have been using simple miter joints for jewelry boxes, and hear many people warn that they're not strong. [snip] There was a FWW mag article (Mar-Apr 1998) that discussed a guy who built a 2x2 mitered/glued box, and basically they beat the heck out of it, jumped on it, etc.. no problem with the joints.

Yes, he was using it for carcases. After testing the method myself by standing on a prototype, I've used it to build a series of CD cabinets, each one almost six feet tall. I can't even guess how much weight they hold when filled with CDs, but they're rock solid even under that load. No splines, no biscuits, no mechanical joint whatsoever. I wouldn't hesitate to build drawers that way if it wasn't much easier to use butt joints with biscuits, and even easier still to use dominos. (Applied fronts, of course.)

The minor lesson I learned was to be open-minded about non-traditional construction methods, but the more important lesson I learned was to make prototypes to try out new construction methods.

Hope this helps someone.

Regards,

John

[James Biddle]

Normally, I use dovetails front and back. But, I was playing with the domino while building a cabinet for my dad and tried this. Not sure how strong it will be, but it was interesting to try something different.

http://home.comcast.net/~jbiddle/pics/dadcab3.jpg

[Will Blick]

Jim, thanks for that tip on the drawer front hardware.... should take out some of the frustration in setting the fronts. I am curious to see how this floating nut works. I just ordered a bunch of them....

[Karl Brogger]

All the drawers I do now are dovetailed with self closing undermount slides. Nice thing about the self closing slides is you can not slam them. I think that takes alot of stress out of things. Plus customers think they're cool. I haven't made a drawer any other way for over a year. I've been charging $110 a drawer for this setup, and truthfully any thing that could be considered "high end" better have solid drawers w/ dovetails.

[J. Z. Guest]

"...there is no mention of box joints. Are they a poor choice ...?"

Technically speaking, yes they are a poor choice, at least for connecting the sides and front since they offer no resistance to the pull on the drawer front.

Correction: They offer no mechanical resistance to pulling. They depend solely on glue, whereas dovetails don't. I believe that's what made dovetails so popular to begin with. The fact that if the glue were to eventually let loose (as old hide glues sometimes did) the joint would still be strong. When you come right down to it, most of our projects are strongly dependent on glue these days.

My personal opinion is that box joints are beautiful. I love that mechanical, boxy look. In the last test I read, it was the strongest corner joint, slightly better than dovetails.

If you haven't seen it yet, Google "Lynn's Jig". I have the plans & materials for this, I only need a project now that requires box joints. This particular jig is great because there is no cumulative error, like there is on 90% of the box joint jigs out there that use a guide pin.

P.S. - I checked my bookmarks, and I do still have the link to Lynn's jig. (http://www.leestyron.com/lynnjig.php)

http://www.leestyron.com/images/lynnjig2.jpg

I just love the golf ball as the crank handle!

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

and truthfully any thing that could be considered "high end" better have solid drawers w/ dovetails.
I disagree with you there, Karl. And I think that's the mentality for most of consumer thinking. Dovetails = high end. That's why most cabinet shops use them. But the truth of the matter is, Lock-mitered drawers (and certainly others too) are just as strong, they have tons of surface area for glue. And are also beautiful to look at. If the craftsman of yesteryear had access to modern glues, plywood and power tools like router tables, you wouldn't see so many dovetails in antiques.

Additionally, modern drawer slides reduce the need for super strong dovetails. Kitchen cabinets need only lifespan of 30 years tops. But I stand to argue my method yields drawers that will last 100 years +.

But again, if you're making period piece, dovetails are the way to go, hands down. I don't mean to bash dovetails.

[Dave Falkenstein]

An interesting observation - in my own kitchen I have sliding shelves that were made by these folks:

http://www.shelvesthatslide.com/

Our shelves are 2-3/8" tall (not much glue surface), 26" wide and 22" deep. We have four of these shelves loaded to the max with heavy cookware - pyrex, Corning Ware, pots and pans, including a cast iron skillet. The drawers are 1/2" baltic birch and the corner joints are rabbets. We have had these drawers for at least 5 years - no failures. I have installed these same drawers in varying sizes in numerous client's homes - not one reported failure.

Simple, done well, is good. Maybe it would be more craftsman-like in appearance if the joints were stronger. Maybe stronger joints would hold up under abusive use - which they do not get in our house - no kids here any longer. I try to ask myself - what cost results in a perfectly satisfactory product, compared with the added cost to make it better than it needs to be. Tough question to get right all of the time, eh? This particular company has decided to use the most simple joints, and they sell these drawers by the thousands. Surely, they don't want lots of warranty calls. Hmmm. To reinforce what I'm saying, here is their warranty:

"We guarantee our Baltic Birch kitchen storage sliding shelves to be free from manufacture's (sic) defects for as long as you live in your home."

Please don't get me wrong. Dovetails, box, drawer lock and some other joints look better and are stronger. But, in many applications, perfectly satisfactory is good enough. After all, you cannot even see a drawer unless it is open. Somewhere is this discussion is there room for a balance between perceived quality and overdoing it?

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

Good point Daviddubya, Sadly though, if I were to open a pro cabinet shop tomorrow, I think I would be forced to use dovetail joints to remain competitive. People equate dovetails with "high-end". Even the middle of the road cabinets at Home Depot/Lowes use dovetails, yet they have 1/2" particle board carcass components with a picture of wood grain hardwood applied to sides.

[Gary Keedwell]

An interesting observation - in my own kitchen I have sliding shelves that were made by these folks:


Please don't get me wrong. Dovetails, box, drawer lock and some other joints look better and are stronger. But, in many applications, perfectly satisfactory is good enough. After all, you cannot even see a drawer unless it is open. Somewhere is this discussion is there room for a balance between perceived quality and overdoing it?
It is all marketing, Dave. I have been to new developements and the salesmen have been trained to sell things at different levels for different prices. Alot of time they will have 3 tiers. The lowest one will have but-joint drawers and cheap slides. The middle might have the dovetails but skimp on the slides and materials. The top shelf will have the dovetails and the nice self-closing slides. It is easier for the customer to distinguish between the 3 prices. Marketing, marketing....marketing.;)

Gary

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

Normally, I use dovetails front and back. But, I was playing with the domino while building a cabinet for my dad and tried this. Not sure how strong it will be, but it was interesting to try something different.

http://home.comcast.net/~jbiddle/pics/dadcab3.jpg

BTW, James, Nice detail! The exposed tenon looks great! Was there any tear out when you came through? Or did you somehow drill it from both sides. Domino is high on my wants list. Your picture is just another reason!

[Dave Falkenstein]

Good point Daviddubya, Sadly though, if I were to open a pro cabinet shop tomorrow, I think I would be forced to use dovetail joints to remain competitive. People equate dovetails with "high-end". Even the middle of the road cabinets at Home Depot/Lowes use dovetails, yet they have 1/2" particle board carcass components with a picture of wood grain hardwood applied to sides.

I'm not a pro cabinet shop, but I do a fair amount of project work for people in the upper income bracket - I live next to north Scottsdale, AZ. I honestly think most of the clients I work for would not know the difference between a dovetail and a pigeon butt!

[Will Blick]

Jeremy, nice box joint, very clever. I too like the look of box joints, specifically with smaller fingers and round-over corners.

Lyns jig is nice, but at best, it might only provide a tad bit more accuracy than using an Incra fence, which moves in .001" increments and I can't remember what the tolerances is, but for most drawers, its overkill. A tall finger joint router bit will suffice also, I think they can cut up to 1 3/4", which if you can flip the board and get close to another 1 3/4". Of course, some precision is required to the depth setting when flipping the board... it must be raised the thickness of one finger...

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/graphics3/boxjoint57.jpg


See video here (http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bt_box_finger_joint.html#box_joint_video_anchor)

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

Can someone explain how to encass that link into a word, such as "here". I see it done a lot, and makes the thread nicer....

Highlight the word you want linked, for example "here" then click the little "Insert Link" icon at top of message box. It looks like a globe with a chain link at bottom (under smiley icon). Then paste the link there and click ok. Easy-peezy.

[Will Blick]

video is here (http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bt_box_finger_joint.html#box_joint_video_anchor)

yep, thanks Jim, sure looks nicer... you can delete your post now, so we don't muddy up the thread :-)

[Michael Pfau]

On all my drawers, I use through dovetails or half blind depending on what kind of drawer fronts I am using. On the back , slot dado, the reason Norm uses this process, is the pressure on all drawers are from opening it over years, and the back does not have that pressure. also always put that slot in about 2 inches or so, so you can open the drawer all the way, and it wont fall out of the opening. I completly agree on how Norm does it, and I do the same thing. Your drawers will last for many years!!

[Will Blick]

> If the craftsman of yesteryear had access to modern glues, plywood and power tools like router tables, you wouldn't see so many dovetails in antiques.

I fully agree with this.... Sometimes we get stuck in a time warp. The argument that dovetails provide pure mechanical joinery (glue is almost optional) seems like a valid argument. But if a modern glued lock miter joint is stress tested and fails outside the glue joint, well...... who cares about the interlocking strength of the DT joint. IMO dovetails can be very pleasing to the eye when contrasting woods are used. Same true of box joints.

[Karl Brogger]

Please don't get me wrong. Dovetails, box, drawer lock and some other joints look better and are stronger. But, in many applications, perfectly satisfactory is good enough. After all, you cannot even see a drawer unless it is open. Somewhere is this discussion is there room for a balance between perceived quality and overdoing it?

If you want to have your product blend in with everyone else's that is a fine motto to have. I try to deal with people that want something that is expensive, and looks expensive. I love the people who don't actually have any money, but are trying to prove to the world that they do. These are the best customers, the more expensive the better, that way they can tell their friends there ent C and bar cost $xxxxx. Or like this, $15,000 in cabinets and I didn't even build the island.
http://a527.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/71/l_916b6636a551de5b6f64f6b570ffd256.jpg

Thats percieved quality.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

16 penny nails. For heirloom pieces I'll use cemented finishing nails.


Really it all depends. This is a hobby for me so I do whatever strikes my fancy at the time.
I have:
A lockmiter cutter
A PC Omni jig
A Leigh D4
A Key Way Jig I made for my slider (works flawlessly and is easer to use than the Leigh or PC).
And I'm getting more in to hand cutting.

[Steven Bolton]

Do you have a photo of your key way jig for sliders?

Steve Bolton

[Steve Clardy]

2 different ways.

Kitchen cabs with no frills/details.
Drawer boxes are butt joints, glued and nailed. Haven't had one to fail in 14 years that I know of.

More detailed/costly cabinets, I use half blind joints on my drawers with false front.

[Jim Becker]

I built two for the wet bar today...using the pocket screw method. (behind a false front) I had them done in about, oh...20 minutes...including a restroom break and cutting the slots for the bottom to slide in.

[Dave Dye]

I love pocket screws, but how do you hide them when building drawers? Please show me pictures.

Thanks

[Steve Clardy]

I built two for the wet bar today...using the pocket screw method. (behind a false front) I had them done in about, oh...20 minutes...including a restroom break and cutting the slots for the bottom to slide in.

You sure took a long restroom break Jim :rolleyes::D

[Joe Vincent]

I love pocket screws, but how do you hide them when building drawers? Please show me pictures.

Thanks

I think someone mentioned that you put the pocket holes in the front of the drawer front (so you'd screw from the front to the sides) and cover it with a false front so that you'd never see the pocket holes. For the drawer back, put the pocket holes in the back side of the back so that you'd only see them if you removed the drawer.

I've not yet tried this method because I usually build drawers out of 1/2" stock and you need 1" screws with pan heads for this. I just purchased the correct Kreg screws so I can give it a try sometime soon. Not sure if it will be my "go to" method, but it's nice to have the option.

[Glenn Clabo]

Bad pic...but here is what they look like before you put the face (sitting on top of the granite) on... http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=77308&d=1197909474

[Gary Randall]

Fully dovetailed drawers are recognized as the standard of quality. Anything less is perceived as mediocre. However, I agree that other methods provide the strength needed for many applications. My mentor, a professional furniture maker, used only dowel joints, for everything, and I never saw one fail. Of course, there were a lot of details to observe.

My favorite drawer is mechanically stronger, even without glue, than a classic dovetailed and glued drawer. It's made with vertical sliding dovetails. The face has two sliding sockets routed in, either full height or stopped below the top edge. The sides have full height sliding tails routed on the fronts and full height sliding sockets routed in the backs, set in from the back end for strength and support while open. The back has full height sliding tails routed on the ends. The back width is reduced so the bottom can slide in the grooves with the back in place. A nail or two through the bottom into the back and the drawer is mechanically sound. Glue only improves it. The sliding dovetails are fussy to rout but many drawers can be made from one setup.

The only disadvantage is that most people are conditioned to classic dovetails and won't recognize the mechanical strength of the drawer. It's ideal for shop drawers you don't want to come apart.

Frank Klaus's video on hand dovetailing drawers is excellent and gives you a good idea of why classic hand dovetailed drawers were used. A skilled craftsman can turn them out with a minimum of steps. I've found that a classic bench with proper vices is a must.

[Tim Reagan]

When cutting thru dovetails (front and back), what is the best way to cut the back piece so the bottom can slide in after glue up. Do you cut off the bottom 3/4" of DT's?
thanks

[Greg Funk]

When cutting thru dovetails (front and back), what is the best way to cut the back piece so the bottom can slide in after glue up. Do you cut off the bottom 3/4" of DT's?
thanks
If you're using through dovetails on the front and back start with one side and glue in the front and back then drop in the bottom and glue on the other side. This assumes your front and back pieces are the same width and that the bottom will be fully captured (i.e. not removable) after glueup.

Greg

[Mike Spanbauer]

That is clever James. I may have to try that with the new Domi.

mike

[Tim Reagan]

how would I make the bottom removeable after glue up?

[Greg Funk]

how would I make the bottom removeable after glue up?
Not sure why you'd want to but if you did you could just make the back piece narrower than the front. You would need to adjust your dovetail spacing as well. Alternatively you could forgo the rear dovetails and just dado the back in.

Greg

[Gilbert Vega]

I used half blind dovetails at each corner. Material was Curly Maple about 5/8" thick.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3048/2309536366_2717127512.jpg?v=0