Sharpening-Lost Confidence

[Jerry Thompson]

I am using a LV MKII sharpening jig. I have been trying for I don't know how long to find out what I am doing wrong. When I sharpen a blade and switch from one water stone to another it as if I have started a new angel. The stones are flat and I have not taken the plane iron out of the jig but it is a whole new ball game. It may be slight but it is as if I were starting out all over again. I belive I am using consistane equal pressure on the blade. I seems to me that when switching from one stone to another that the new scratch pattern should be pretty much even over the old one envenly.
The two attachments may help in my explanation.
Thank you.
Jerry

[David DeCristoforo]

From your images, I would say that your problem is simple. Your stones are not flat. And to make matters worse, they vary in the amount to which they are not flat which is why you get a different "scratch pattern" when you switch stones.

YM

[Narayan Nayar]

Hey Jerry. Just a couple of questions so we have the information we need to help you:


How do you know your stones are flat? What technique are you using to flatten the stones?
Are you using the microbevel knob on the Mk II at all? If so, when in the process and how are you using it?
What procedure are you using to place / position the iron in the jig?


The first picture is a little too blurry to see what's going on, but it's clear in the second picture that, in what I presume is a transition between stones, the angle at which the stone is hitting the iron differs, which may be because of the stone or because of the position of the iron in the jig. You touch upon all the variables in your post but it would helpful to know more details about your process.

[Hank Knight]

Jerry,

Sometimes the crud from sharpening with water stones can build up on the jig roller or on the stone itself, particularly if the stone begins to dry out a little while youre sharpening. This increases the sharpening angle slightly. If you clean it off between stones, you lower the angle and your blade contacts the new stone at the heel of the bevel like in your picture. Make sure you keep the roller clean throughout the process. I don't know if that's your problem, but I thought I'd mention it.

Hank

[Jerry Thompson]

I have been using a flattening stone, one with the diag. slots in it to flatten the stones. I place the iron in the jig per intructions and make sure it is square and secure. I use the micro-bevel knob after I have done a 25d primary bevel and move it to the first setting.
I am a klutz using things and said to heck with it and set off doing it free hand and all is going well. I have a mirror bevel with about a 1/32 radius on my low angle block blade and it took me little time at all. It is sharp as can be. In hindsight I should have jumped in at the outset free hand. Now about the stone flatness. If my flattening stone is not working well what do I do?

[glenn bradley]

Something is changing, that we know from the pics, right? I'll add my guesses to the others here. Some you have checked, some may bear re-checking:

The blade has moved in the jig (once my jig is tight it is almost impossible to make this happen).
The stones are not flat (the amount of error once transmitted to the blade tip can be pretty insignificant and still cause problems, I use 3/8" glass for fines and marble for coarse work).
Slurry is building up on the 1st stone causing inconsistent angle when you change (the pic shows the heel getting treated ahead of the rest of the face, This means your guide wheel is lower than on the previous stone [again this points to uneven stones]).
You're pressing down so hard you are altering the path without realizing it (let the abrasive do the work, keep your grip firm but not a "death grip". Think about how you run a hand plane over a board; controlled effort, not brute strength).If it helps, I can take a chisel that was sharpened a month ago, re-register it in the jig and hone it on .3 micron abrasive with good results. The point is, once you find the thing that is causing the problem, you can expect very consistent results from your jig. HTH and look forward to you posting your results.

[John Dykes]

Jerry -

I used the Norton flattening stone to flatten my Shapton stones for quite a while. Unfortunately (and in thanks to the folks here), I learned the Norton flattening stone is junk. I went and tested my Norton stone - and it was crooked as a bird's butt (What, isn't anybody else from Kentucky?).

Flatten your stones or the Norton stone on a flat surface w/ sandpaper - you might be unpleasantly surprised...

Let us know how it goes...

- jbd

[Mike Henderson]

I have been using a flattening stone, one with the diag. slots in it to flatten the stones. I place the iron in the jig per intructions and make sure it is square and secure. I use the micro-bevel knob after I have done a 25d primary bevel and move it to the first setting.
I am a klutz using things and said to heck with it and set off doing it free hand and all is going well. I have a mirror bevel with about a 1/32 radius on my low angle block blade and it took me little time at all. It is sharp as can be. In hindsight I should have jumped in at the outset free hand. Now about the stone flatness. If my flattening stone is not working well what do I do?
Your problem is the flattening stone - it's not flat. I had one and had the same problem. The flattening stone starts to become convex so when you "flatten" your working stone, it becomes concave.

Flatten your working stones with something flat - sandpaper on glass is fine as well as a DMT diamond stone. Flatten the flattening stone and use it for a very coarse stone and not for flattening your working stones.

Mike

[Narayan Nayar]

Many people make this recommendation, but the $30 granite block at Woodcraft and a piece of Norton wet dry sandpaper will probably do you wonders. Draw a grid on your stone with a pencil and rub on the wet sandpaper until all the grid lines disappear.

I was also going to suggest going freehand, as some of those jigs are more trouble than they're worth (I tried the LV mkII for months and kept chipping the corner of my blades against the projection guide...argh!), but it seems you beat me to it. :)

[Clint Jones]

I have been using a flattening stone, one with the diag. slots in it to flatten the stones.

Problem solved. Throw that thing out. Get a DMT Coarse and never look back. If you dont have the $$$ just glue some 220 sandpaper to your TS, jointer, or a piece of thick float glass and use it to flatten your stones.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Jerry -

I used the Norton flattening stone to flatten my Shapton stones for quite a while. Unfortunately (and in thanks to the folks here), I learned the Norton flattening stone is junk. I went and tested my Norton stone - and it was crooked as a bird's butt (What, isn't anybody else from Kentucky?).

Flatten your stones or the Norton stone on a flat surface w/ sandpaper - you might be unpleasantly surprised...

Let us know how it goes...

- jbd

THe shapton stones will destroy the flatness of the norton flattening plate. the 220 grit norton stone also is too hard. I have been using my Norton flattening plate for 3 years on the other norton stones and it's flat and my stones are flat.

if the OP is getting good results free hand (which he is) then the problem is most probably not with the stones.

[Eddie Darby]

I am a klutz using things and said to heck with it and set off doing it free hand and all is going well.

You may have that the wrong way, since jigs tend to work better for those who are physically challenged in the coordination department, sometimes known as a klutz.:eek:

When you clean, there is the saying, that you can't clean a surface with something dirty.

When you sharpen, you run into the same problem, but instead of calling it sharpening, you really are flattening. So you can't flatten a blade with something that isn't flat.

The weakness of the jig is that it runs on the stone. IF the stone is concave, which is usually the case, then you need to be constantly changing the angle. Jigs aren't too good at that.

When you use a jig, you move it straight backwards and forwards. Or so it is thought, but the jig also moves diagonally across the stone as well. This is where you get one side being favoured over the other side. Leading, even ever so slightly with one edge ahead of the other, as in diagonal movement, will on a concave stone, cause this leading edge to lift up the opposite edge. The leading edge has more metal removed than the trailing.

So jigs demand flat surfaces.

The real saving with a jig is the ability to just remove the metal at the edge of the tool where all the work is done, with a micro-bevel, and in the process save on the cost $$$ of valuable abrasive, which waterstones spend faster than other types of stones.

If you wish to continue free handing it, then I would suggest a try at "The Ruler Trick" that David Charlesworth has promoted, to save time, abrasive and metal.

[Jerry Thompson]

I will have another go at it this week and let all of you know how things are going. I slept right through my nap today and have to retire early to make up for it all.
At least when I took my shower this morning nothing fell off. That is a good day.
Thanks to everyone.
Jerry

[Wilbur Pan]

One last thing to consider:

This may be anathema to some, and I'll admit this isn't something I do myself, but if you have a grinding wheel of some sort that would be able to put a slight hollow grind on the bevel, that will help a lot with giving you a useable and sharp blade while you are troubleshooting.

[Don C Peterson]

After reading several of Krenov's books, I decided to try the hollow grinding thing. I got a hand powered grinding wheel on eBay for $4.00 and went to work. After I made a decent tool support, I found I was able to grind and sharpen several of my chisels and plane irons much faster than I had previously. It makes putting a camber on plane irons much easier too. So far I really like the results.

[Michael Faurot]

I got a hand powered grinding wheel on eBay for $4.00 and went to work. After I made a decent tool support, I found I was able to grind and sharpen several of my chisels and plane irons much faster than I had previously.

I've been curious to try a hand cranked grinding wheel myself, but I'm not a fan of playing the eBay bidding games. Are you aware of any reputable on-line retailers that sell these? Are there even new ones still being made?

Thanks.

[Mark Roderick]

I completely agree with all the above: your problem is that the stone is not flat, and the reason it's not flat is that the Norton "flattening" stone isn't flat.

I bought one not too long ago and it was WAY out of flat. I rubbed it on a sidewalk (they are surprisingly flat) and that helped a lot, but it still wasn't flat enough. I returned it.

I use a simple system for flattening stones: a piece of glass, a sheet of kevlar from Lee Valley, and some 400 grit lapping compound from Lee Valley. Very cheap and works like a charm.

[Don C Peterson]

I doubt that there are any hand powered grinding wheels being made, I'm not aware of them any if there are. I like eBay and if you are patient, you can still find what you want for reasonable prices. I tried the antique malls and estate sales, but I spent more money in gas and time than I figured it was worth.

[Michael Faurot]

I doubt that there are any hand powered grinding wheels being made, I'm not aware of them any if there are.


O well. I'll just keep looking for a vintage/used one then.



I like eBay and if you are patient, you can still find what you want for reasonable prices. I tried the antique malls and estate sales, but I spent more money in gas and time than I figured it was worth.No thanks--not interested in eBay. Invariably my wife likes going to those antique malls and such, so now I've got something else to look for when she wants to go do that stuff.

[Eddie Darby]

I would start your own separate thread on finding the hand grinders, as this is hard to find. Who knows what's out there waiting for a new owner.