cutting stiles after assembly

[Michael Handrinos]

I'm going to be making some raised panels doors soon and need some advice. I have read about leaving "horns" on the stiles... a couple of inches on each end. How would you cut these down safely?

Thanks

Mike

[Mark Mazzo]

Michael,

I've done this many times. The method that I usually use is to put the door on my panel jig and cut the horns within about 1/16" of an inch on the table saw. I then follow up with a sharp low angle block plane (working from the outside edges of the door to avoid chip out) and flush up the remainder to the rails.

[Jim Becker]

A sled on a table saw or the same basic idea if you have a slider. You could also use a guided saw setup including a table mounted version such as the Festool MFT or the EZ Bridge setup.

[Scott Banbury]

Leave your rails a little wide and cut the whole edge on your sled or miter guage.

[keith ouellette]

I have always seen this done but It didn't make sense to me. Why not make the stiles the exact length you want. Thats what I did and I didn't have any problems (Limited experience aside I may have some problem down the road).

If the door is going over a face frame and is 1/2" or 5/8" overlay it really wouldn't matter if it was off in height by a 1/6"; would it?

[frank shic]

i agree with keith. i used to make them longer and then trim down the horns afterwards but it added another step to the process and makes the whole clamping procedure slightly more difficult. since making the stiles exact length, i've found it much easier when clamping to use the ends as reference points for pulling the rails down flush and square. the other problem with having horns at both ends is that you have to use either a miter sled or a sliding table to make the initial trim before you're able to reference the second trimming cut off the rip fence.

[Peter Quinn]

Lets face it, try as you might doors dont always glue up perfectly square. Glue sets up quick and makes a great lubricant for that first minute or so. My dry fits always go perfect, glue ups vary a bit! I have used this technique for full sized and inset doors, leaving top and bottom rails 1/16" over sized. That way you can quickly square the entire door from one reference style while cutting to exact lenght in the process.

For overlay I really wouldn't bother.

[David DeCristoforo]

I'm of the "no "horns" school. For one thing, if your stiles are long, you need to have some sort of reference mark on both ends of every stile so that you know where the edge of the rails are "supposed" to be. That takes time. Then you have to "play" with tapping the rails into the correct position. More time. Then you have to trim the doors. More time.

Also, I think you need to make sure the doors glue up square regardless of whether or not you leave horns. If they are not, you may easily end up with tapered rails which can be more obvious in the finished door that one might think. It is much easier to check for square if there are no "horns" on the stile ends.

It is true that a dry fit and an actual glue up can produce different results due to the previously mentioned tendency of the glue to act as a "lubricant". I have found it best to apply light clamping pressure, sufficient to close the joints. Then back off the clamps a bit, square up the frame and then re-tighten the clamps. If the doors still go out of square, it is most likely due to the ends of the rails being slightly out of square, an error that should have been dealt with long before glue up. Another good way to prevent "creep" is to drop a few grains of clean, washed "aquarium" sand into each joint. When clamping pressure is applied, the grains of sand will "bite", preventing to pieces from slipping around. I always have a small can of sand around. I learned this trick many years ago and I have found it to be very helpful in many "glue up" situations where the potential for "creep" exists.

After the doors are assembled, it is very easy to clean up the ends with a fine block plane, a sanding block or on an edge sander. I find it much easier to do this than to have to mess around with trimming finished door panels. However, the "make it oversized and trim after assembly" school has many proponents and it is not my intention to denigrate that method. I just don't do it that way myself....

YM

[Gary Keedwell]

I'm of the "no "horns" school. For one thing, if your stiles are long, you need to have some sort of reference mark on both ends of every stile so that you know where the edge of the rails are "supposed" to be. That takes time. Then you have to "play" with tapping the rails into the correct position. More time. Then you have to trim the doors. More time.

Also, I think you need to make sure the doors glue up square regardless of whether or not you leave horns. If they are not, you may easily end up with tapered rails which can be more obvious in the finished door that one might think. It is much easier to check for square if there are no "horns" on the stile ends.

It is true that a dry fit and an actual glue up can produce different results due to the previously mentioned tendency of the glue to act as a "lubricant". I have found it best to apply light clamping pressure, sufficient to close the joints. Then back off the clamps a bit, square up the frame and then re-tighten the clamps. If the doors still go out of square, it is most likely due to the ends of the rails being slightly out of square, an error that should have been dealt with long before glue up. Another good way to prevent "creep" is to drop a few grains of clean, washed "aquarium" sand into each joint. When clamping pressure is applied, the grains of sand will "bite", preventing to pieces from slipping around. I always have a small can of sand around. I learned this trick many years ago and I have found it to be very helpful in many "glue up" situations where the potential for "creep" exists.

After the doors are assembled, it is very easy to clean up the ends with a fine block plane, a sanding block or on an edge sander. I find it much easier to do this than to have to mess around with trimming finished door panels. However, the "make it oversized and trim after assembly" school has many proponents and it is not my intention to denigrate that method. I just don't do it that way myself....

YM
Thanks for posting Yoshikuni....You said what I was thinking...only you said it better than I could.;):)
Gary

[frank shic]

excellent response yoshikuni (can we call you yoshi for short? ;) )! thanks for reminding us about the sand-in-glue trick to prevent slipping. i believe it was also mentioned in guidice's book on tables.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...can we call you yoshi for short?"

You can call me whatever you wish.....

YM

[Peter Quinn]

I must agree as Yoshikuni has pointed out the 'horns' method is not a way of overcoming gross inaccuracies in your milling/gluing/clamping procedures. Sloppy work will make itself apparent regardless of which method you use. All parts must be flat, square and tight fitting for any successful door project. Inside corners must remain square and the door must remain flat.

However I respectfully disagree with the suggestion that one method is more wasteful of time than the other. The time spent trimming the doors to length equals the time spent cutting each style accurately and repeatedly to length originally. In fact you are cutting two styles at once, possibly saving time. The time spent aligning the rails with the styles vrs aligning the rails with a pencil mark is in my experience equal. The time spent making a few reference marks during dry fit is frankly negligible.

If you find yourself using a block plane to trim door styles that are not flush with the rails you have by your own admission introduced some degree of inaccuracy into the door. The problem with the block plane/sanding method is that you can only hope the inaccuracy is equal at all four corners. The horns method allows you to quickly and completely control the exact length of the finished product while returning to perfect square. I find that shaving .015"-.030" over the length of the average style or rail produces a degree of taper that is imperceptible to the eye. Much beyond that and things will get awkward.

On passage doors that must conform to an existing opening or inset doors with very tight tolerances the "horns" method is in fact an expeditious way to eliminate minor inaccuracies introduced in the assembly process.

I will be going to my local pet store to acquire some sand directly and I thank you Yoshikuni for that suggestion. Beautiful and simple.

[glenn bradley]

"...can we call you yoshi for short?"

You can call me whatever you wish.....

YM

I will call you Sand Master because that is a wonderfully simple solution to the occasional troublesome joint.