Square recommendations

[Ian Haywood]

I could use some recommendations for a largish square that is truly square. I bought an 18x24 Stanley carpenter's square and it fails the flip test.. you know... draw a line, flip the square and redraw a line on top of the first one. I suppose it would be fine for rough carpentry.

The crosscut sled I built for the 4100 appears near perfect.. but then I figure out that what I'm using to build it by and judge what "square" is, isn't.

Sorry for the newb question... but have you ever searched for "square" here? :eek:

thanks,
Ian

[Peter Quadarella]

It may seem expensive, but if you don't buy a 12" Starrett combination square you will want one forever. I finally gave in 2 weeks ago and it is truly a fine tool.

[Chris Padilla]

Yep, Starrett. Only bring it out when you either:

A) Make your own
B) Measure up one at the store to find the squarest
C) Want to impress your friends

:)

[Dave Novak]

I'm a big fan of all the measurement and layout tools from Woodpeckers. Go to woodpeck.com and click on the link titled "measuring and Layout". For the money, these can't be beat: http://www.woodpeck.com/incraprot.html

[John Schreiber]

I had a cheap one like that and I made it square by pounding on the corner. It was too wide, meaning over 90°. I set it on top of my metal vise's "anvil" surface and pounded pretty hard quite a few times on the outside corner. That got it to a perfect square using the flip test like you describe.

The problem is that the edge is not now straight. I filed off the bumps I made, but can't really use that part as a straight edge. It's far more useful than it was before though.

The trick is to pound some and test frequently so you don't over shoot. (DAMHIKT)

[Mark Singer]

Starrett ! The 4" or 6 " double square is super handy too. Its with me most of the time, except when I can't find it:rolleyes:

[John Browne]

I'm with you on this one. I have two framing squares--one from Woodcraft and one from HD and neither one is square.

I wound up making a rectangle of plywood about 12" on a side and made sure the diagonals were exactly even--well within a frog's hair anyway. Then I labeled it with a sharpie so it wouldn't get tossed. It was primarily to set my Festool MFT fence square to the guide rail, but could be used for other stuff. I also have a 4' sheetrock T-square, which as far as I can tell is pretty close to square.

Try as I might I can't find a large (ie over 12" long) engineer's square. Jerry Work uses one--I asked him where he got it and he couldn't remember :(

[Dan Barr]

if your square fails (carpenters square)

(peen: hit with the round part of a ball peen hammer. this will spread the metal slightly and expand that spot.)

(peen where the tongue and blade intersect)

- peen the inside corner if it the inside is less than 90 degrees. this will open up the inside a little.

- peen the outside corner if the inside is more than 90 degrees. this will close up the inside a little.

test as you go. pound pound pound, test. repeat.

hope this helps,

dan

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Starrett. You'll be glad you did.

[Dan Barr]

but,

for fixing your carpenters square, you'll need to peen it.

ive got both. starrett for all my handy and small work and a carpenters square for framing and checking carcases.

v/r

dan

[Richard Dooling]

Dan is right, you can square a square with a ball peen hammer, or use a center punch but.......Starrett. I use squares that are "square enough" most of the time but at some point you want reference squares and straight edges to work from. I put off getting the Starrett combo for too long. Expensive but worth it.

[Kurt Bird]

Ian,
The old time carpenters would buy a new square, and test it as you did: draw a square line, flip the square over, and draw a second line to see if they match. If the lines crossed each other, they would take a metal punch (kind of like a nail set but with a shallow point on it) and they would place it on the square about 1/4" in from the inside corner, and tap it with a hammer. Recheck drawing the lines. Repeat the steps until square. If the original set of lines went apart from each other, use the punch about 1/4" in from the outside corner of the square. This should work fairly easily, but another recommendation is to buy the steel version of a framing square, it will hold up better. If this process doesn't do the job for you, throw out the square and buy a Starrett.:D
Kurt Bird

[Gordon Harner]

I use another approach. I even checked my Starrett this way. Use a drafting square. They are dead accurate and available in many sizes.

[Gary Keedwell]

Yup...My Starrett is my go to that I keep safely in it'special place in my tool box. It is my "standard" that I use to check my other squares.

Gary

[Ian Haywood]

Thanks, I'll try peening this thing. Either I'll fix it or I'll chuck it.

Ian

[JayStPeter]

Peening works, but usually only for 1 edge. I went to an area with 2 borgs facing each other so I would have plenty of choices. I took a nice thin mechanical pencil and started taking the framing squares over to the MDF and performing the flip test. I was prepared for spending some time at both borgs and coming home empty handed. The first one I tried was actually bent, the second was spot on inside and outside. So, I bought it and have used it quite a bit in the last 6 or 7 years. I've dropped it a few times now and had to peen it a couple months ago. It's now only square on the outside. Next time I'm at the borg ...

[glenn bradley]

The man is asking for a 18" x 24" square and you guys are recommending 6" squares???

Using the method Kurt describes, I have 2 framing squares; one for outside and one for inside measurements that I have "punched in". Lee Valley sells one with inside and outside edges that are quite close to parallel (as opposed to any others I have seen) but I bet you'll still need to punch it to get it right on. For most shop work a 6" and a 12" cover it so you may be talking about a framer's square because that's what you happen to have(?).

Now, back to your sled. Don't try to square it up with a square. Use the 5 cut method (http://www.thewoodshop.20m.com/five_cut_method_swf.htm)and adjust your rear fence as required. If your rear fence isn't adjustable, build a new sled (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=50581)and adjust your rear fence as required.

[Doug Shepard]

I was looking a few weeks ago and so far the biggest engineer type square I spotted were these 10"x18" http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=638-7731&PMPXNO=950808

[Gary Keedwell]

The man is asking for a 18" x 24" square and you guys are recommending 6" squares???



Sorry Glenn.........http://www.free-animations.co.uk/people/blue_colar/images/blue_colar_4.gif.....:rolleyes::p

Gary

[Doug Shepard]

Ooh - just found this one for only $1955.00
http://www.all2ools.com/index.pl/froogle?productid=STR/20-36

[glenn bradley]

Ooh - just found this one for only $1955.00
http://www.all2ools.com/index.pl/froogle?productid=STR/20-36

Man, I gotta have one-a-those!!! Why!?! . . . . Uh, . . . er. . . I have no idea :o.

[Bill Wyko]

Woodpeck makes great billet squares. I think the website is www.woodpeck.com (http://www.woodpeck.com)

[Doug Shepard]

Man, I gotta have one-a-those!!! Why!?! . . . . Uh, . . . er. . . I have no idea :o.

I'm guessing that would be answer C :D


Yep, Starrett. Only bring it out when you either:

A) Make your own
B) Measure up one at the store to find the squarest
C) Want to impress your friends

:)

[josh bjork]

So i see the 5 cut test recommended all the time and the accuracy is bragged about, but why don't you save the offcut and use that for your reference?

[Leon Jester]

Starrett, with satin chrome blades. I've got 12 & 18 inch blades.

Alternatively, Mitutoyo and Brown & Sharpe also make precision squares. I have a Mitutoyo 12 inch square that stacks up against my Starrett exactly.

If you don't want to buy new, you might check pawn shops in your area, or look on E-bay.



I could use some recommendations for a largish square that is truly square. I bought an 18x24 Stanley carpenter's square and it fails the flip test.. you know... draw a line, flip the square and redraw a line on top of the first one. I suppose it would be fine for rough carpentry.



thanks,
Ian

[Dave Verstraete]

As a Tool and Die Maker, I am lucky to have my Starret combination square set. We have the equipment to truly check the squareness of it at work. They make a quality square that I use as my "Last Word" for squareness in woodworking. You might not want to ask how square it is!

[Jim Heffner]

I could use some recommendations for a largish square that is truly square. I bought an 18x24 Stanley carpenter's square and it fails the flip test.. you know... draw a line, flip the square and redraw a line on top of the first one. I suppose it would be fine for rough carpentry.

The crosscut sled I built for the 4100 appears near perfect.. but then I figure out that what I'm using to build it by and judge what "square" is, isn't.

Sorry for the newb question... but have you ever searched for "square" here? :eek:

thanks,
Ian
Ian, if you want carpenter/job site tools....go to your local big box store,
if you are wanting QUALITY woodworking tools...go to a woodworking store like woodcraft, rockler, etc. There you will find better made reliable
tools like squares, and other more precise measuring / layout tools...
they do come at a higher price, but you get what you pay for.
Jim Heffner

[Mike Henderson]

Starrett is very good but I prefer the Mitutoyo. The differences are small so either should work very well for you.

If you're an eBay user you can find them on there for a variety of prices, depending on whether they're new or used.

Mike

[Ian Haywood]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Looks like I will be revamping my sled with an adjustable fence.

One question about that tho. What is the purpose of the front fence? I made my sled 3x3 and just left the front 3-6" of the plywood uncut.

Ian

[Dave Falkenstein]

I was looking a few weeks ago and so far the biggest engineer type square I spotted were these 10"x18" http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=638-7731&PMPXNO=950808

Even better than the one Doug found, IMHO, is the one I have from Enco. It's #638-7628, here:

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=378&PMITEM=638-7628

The reason I like this square, besides being square, is that both legs are thick, like the base on the engineers square. The thick legs make an excellent setup tool. Cheaper than the engineer's square too.

[Leon Jester]

Umm. No.

Twelve to twenty-four inch blades are available for Starrett combo squares. I haven't checked Mitutoyo or B&S to see if they offer them also.

Note that none of us suggested other than machinist's combination squares.


The man is asking for a 18" x 24" square and you guys are recommending 6" squares?



Starrett, with satin chrome blades. I've got 12 & 18 inch blades.

Alternatively, Mitutoyo and Brown & Sharpe also make precision squares. I have a Mitutoyo 12 inch square that stacks up against my Starrett exactly.

[Keith Outten]

I use another approach. I even checked my Starrett this way. Use a drafting square. They are dead accurate and available in many sizes.

Gordon has the best answer folks, it appears that you missed his post :)

DRAFTING SQUARES are accurate and very inexpensive. Get them from your local drafting supply, don't buy them from the craft store. Pickett is a good brand name that comes to mind.

[Peter Quadarella]

I think I always called these T squares, right? How come manufacturers can get squareness right on these but not other types? Too bad I don't have my old T square from High School anymore.

[Peter M. Spirito]

I just gave up. Bit the bullet. I am now a happy (and square) wood worker.

:) http://www.woodpeck.com/speedsquare.html this is the 18 inch speed square I just bought. And this is the 12 inch square http://www.woodpeck.com/1281.html Now I am looking for 1ft, 2ft, 4ft, and 6ft levels of the same Woodpecker quality for hanging doors, cabinets and trim work. ;)

[Tom Henderson2]

I think I always called these T squares, right? How come manufacturers can get squareness right on these but not other types? Too bad I don't have my old T square from High School anymore.

Tee-squares are normally only used on one side, so they don't need to be very square. So most aren't. And with the advent of CAD software, Tee-squares are more of an artist item. So look in art supply stores.

I'm guessing that Keith was referring to drafting triangles, which are generally square. But most of them are also flat, and few are really large enough to be a decent replacement for a roofing square.

I think the fellow that suggested taking a bundle of Borg squares to the MDF stack and testing them one by one until (if?) a truly square one is found is probably the best method.

Just my $0.02, and I'll apologize in advance if I misunderstood what the other posts about te-squares and triangles.

-Tom H.
Ventura, CA

[Keith Outten]

Tom,

Your right...I should have said Drafting Triangles rather than Drafting Squares. Triangles are available in large sizes and the brand name triangles are extremely accurate and inexpensive. You can also purchase large adjustable drafting triangles, I have one in my shop that I use when I need to be dead on.

I own a precision machinists square, my drafting triangles are just as accurate at a fraction of the price and they don't rust or need to be kept oiled. I do some metal work from time to time so I own several micrometers, dial calipers and measuring standards to test my measuring equipment. I also have a CNC router that is pretty dang accurate and a laser engraver that isn't to shabby either so I can make custom guages when the need arizes. What I have found is that my old drafting triangles are more accurate then necessary for woodworking and my EZ Saw Guides are the best straight edge I own in my shop when you remove the white plastic edge the extrusion is dead on.

.

[Dennis Faz]

Is this a good price for the 12" @ Home Depot?
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Navigation?Ntk=AllProps&N=10000003+90021+500992+3385&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053&langId=-1&omni=b_Starrett

[Ron Knapp]

A 36 inch is also available but is harder to find

[Harry Goodwin]

I have 5 starrett and brown and sharp squares I treasure but I have a slick little woodjoy square that is usa and can be used as a feeler gage in a large number of sizes that is really well thought out and a great tool. Harry

[george wilson]

I use Starrett or Brown & Sharp machinist's squares,not combination squares. The combination squares get out of square by sliding the blade through the handle,and usually aren't perfectly square to begin with.

My squares are old ones in excellent condition up to 18" long.

If you can,try to find old carpenter's squares that have ground edges. All the newer ones have been chomped out,and are not as accurate,nor are their edges truly straight from being chomped out. of course,if they have been dropped,who knows their accuracy.

The machinist's squares cost about $2000.00 in the 18" size new,so you should try to find them used like I did. I also got lucky and have some granite master squares,that are only good for checking steel squares,machined parts,or layout work.They look like square cubes of granite,with steps cut in 1 side.