Help for a Newbie - Biscuits or Pocket Screws

[John Finley]

I am fairly new to woodworking, with only a couple of projects under my belt. My current project is a bed that I am making out of walnut. I am at the point where I need to glue up two pieces for the side rails. The final dimension of the rails will be 1 1/2" X 10" X 82". I was told that it would be best to glue up two 5" wide pieces instead of trying to use a 10" piece.

Anyway, I am at the point where I need to glue the two pieces together. I was originally planning on using biscuits, but that would require me to buy a biscuit jointer. I did a quick search and found that it may be better to use pocket screws. It was also suggested that a seam of that size could be glued and clamped without any reinforcement. I don't know which path to take. Can anyone give me some advice. Thanks, John

[Peter Quadarella]

I probably don't understand exactly what you are doing (I don't know why anyone would want to use 2 smaller pieces instead of 1 if they had a choice), but I can tell you that if you are connecting two boards side to side to make one larger board, there is nothing stronger than a regular glue bond. Using biscuits may help line up the boards for you, but won't add to the strength. I don't see the use in pocket screws for this application.

You will find that when glueing long grain to long grain, the resulting bond is stronger than the wood around it (if you break the board, the wood will give before the glue seam).

[Hubert Carle]

Start with the glue-up. With two boards that long and that wide you need NOTHING NOTHING extra! Except lots of clamps :D:D. The glue joint will be very strong.

As for using bisquets. (spell checker didn't like the way I spelled that) They really do not add much strength to the joint. What they excel at is making sure the boards are aligned so the glue will work.

Pocket holes do add lots of strength and alignment.

Both bisquets and pocket hole screws are really made for joining boards side to side rather than flat to flat.

[Peter Quadarella]

Oh also, if you don't have lots of clamps, you could take a look at the bowclamp (there's a forum for this here at the bottom of the list) which could save you some money. I haven't tried it, but it looks like a great product (you could also try making your own cauls).

[Paul Girouard]

Buy pipe clamps , very few glue joints need any re-enforcement such as biscuits and / or pocket screws.

A proper glue joint is stronger than the surrounding wood , try breaking any scraps after you glue it up , it will break close to the glue line but not right on the glue line. The joist should be straight / fit well before gluing up. A jointer or jointer plane or some other means of straight lining may be required . IE Router , flush trimming bit and straight edge combo .

BTW welcome to the forum if no one said that! Jeesh this is like a fresh meat thread , slow down boys eh :D

[John Finley]

I don't have much experience with walnut, but I was told that it is fairly unstable, and with a piece of that size, it would most likely warp over time. It is also very hard to find 10" walnut.

I understand what you are saying about the biscuits not adding strength. Thanks for the advice.

[Prashun Patel]

If the holes can be hidden, I'd use glue and pocket screws.

Pocket screws will function as clamps while the glue dries, but will align better and be quicker and easier than clamps. They also have zero-profile, so you can wipe both sides of the joint easy before the glue sets, which'll help with yr cleanup/finishing.

A pockethole jig is a valuable thing to have. Makes quick, cheap, professional looking butt joints a snap.

[Matt Day]

If you have a pocket screw jig, use it along with glue. It will align the wood and act as a clamp. The holes aren't going to be seen so who cares?

[Brent Ring]

You could also use a slot cutter router bit sizeds for biscuits and use that as well -even make a spline most of the way....Cheaper than a biscuit cutter, and you get the same benefit. Norm uses that mentality in his lastest episodes connecting face frames to cabinets, but it should work on edge.

I have also glued red oak and white oak on edge with no biscuits, and it works great.... Clamp and caul well....

[Larry Fox]

I would just go with an edge to edge joint and use a biscut or three for alignment only. Another option for alignment that I have used with success is a spline.

Also, 1.5" is a very thick side-rail.

EDIT: Brent beat me to it with the spline. I believe the slot cutter you want for biscuts is 5/32 if you want to go that route.

[bob cohen]

Glue and clamps! As said by others, the biscuts add no strength to the joint, and as far as the pocket holes go, YOU will see them. I always feel better about my projects when there are no screws, sheet goods etc., involved, unless absolutely necessary. Maybe I'm just a silly purist, but...

Also my experience with pocket screws is that they do not guarantee perfect alignment. No matter how you go about, flat alignment requires well dimensioned boards, plenty of clamps and cauls, careful planning, and patience. Good luck

[Chris Padilla]

The biggest challenge in this glue up is the sheer length of the boards you are joining. You could go batty trying to keep them flush.

Biscuits would solve this problem assuming you are careful with cutting them....

Pocket screws would be good, too, but clamp it well when driving the screws so the boards don't shift on you.

Assuming you have a table saw, cutting splines would be pretty straightforward. Just rip a groove down the edge of the boards...flip end for end, and cut again. This ensures a groove in the dead center of your board even if you were off a little bit. Next, rip some stock to make the spline to fit the groove: the stock can be made of practically anything...you *mostly* are just using it as an alignment aid. MDF is cheap, you may have plywood scraps laying around or even some hardwood laying around. This is most likely the cheapest method to you assuming you have a table saw. A router and straight bit and edge guide could also accomplish this.

The pocket screw jig would be the cheapest over a biscuit cutter but it is a GREAT TOOL to have around regardless. I would argue that it would get the more use in your shop than your biscuit cutter (well, it would in MY shop!).

[Jim Becker]

I don't have much experience with walnut, but I was told that it is fairly unstable, and with a piece of that size, it would most likely warp over time. It is also very hard to find 10" walnut.

Welcome to the 'Creek!

Walnut is quite stable if it's dried correctly. I use air-dried walnut from my own property and have never had any issues with movement or other instablity.

As to the width thing, "supply" is one thing, but there are a lot of myths floating around about things like using narrow board and gluing them up is better, etc. Not so if you build correctly and a single wide board will almost always look much better than a glue-up. Wide can be wonderful!

[Chris Padilla]

Wide can be wonderful!


...said your Gluteus Maximus and Rectus Abdominis as you stepped sideways through the door....

:p

[Jim Becker]

...said your Gluteus Maximus and Rectus Abdominis as you stepped sideways through the door....

I may very well resemble that remark after eating a lot of (very good/exellent) Brazilian beef for the last two weeks.

But back on topic, my rule of thumb is material as wide as possible. My version of woodworking heaven would be always having boards in the rack that are wide enough to make any project component with just one board...no matter how wide. :)

[Peter Quadarella]

That would be great. End grain cutting boards would be a cinch if those trees were plentiful. :)

[Scott Loven]

Glue is all that is necessary. If you don't have enough clamps, put the two boards between two higher scrap boards and use wedges to push the glued boards together. You could also put a bridge across the two scrap boards near the ends, middle and in between and use more wedges to push the board faces flush to the table. Might want to use was paper on the table.

[Peter Quinn]

Skip the pocket screws, loose the biscuits, learn to edge glue now and you wont regret it. They both add nothing to this process. I love biscuits and pocket screws but rarely use either in fine work.

As to edge glueing two 5" boards being 'Better' to get 10", that sounds like crazy talk. Walnut is super stable if dried and sap free. 6/4 stock once flattened doesnt move much. I suppose a wide flat sawn board could warp more than two glued boards if exposed to extreme humidity changes,but it would take a lot. Stay away from walnut with lots of sap on the B face cause thats always less stable. Any way, if it does warp a little on a bed rail, who cares? I'm with Mr. Becker, wide is pretty, and your going to see that rail every day for a long time, so look for wide boards.

Its been a while since math class but last time I checked 5+5 still equalled 10X1, meaning 2 (5") boards joined move as much a single 10" board in width, so thats moot too..

[John Karas]

I am fairly new to woodworking, with only a couple of projects under my belt. My current project is a bed that I am making out of walnut. I am at the point where I need to glue up two pieces for the side rails. The final dimension of the rails will be 1 1/2" X 10" X 82". I was told that it would be best to glue up two 5" wide pieces instead of trying to use a 10" piece.

Anyway, I am at the point where I need to glue the two pieces together. I was originally planning on using biscuits, but that would require me to buy a biscuit jointer. I did a quick search and found that it may be better to use pocket screws. It was also suggested that a seam of that size could be glued and clamped without any reinforcement. I don't know which path to take. Can anyone give me some advice. Thanks, John

Hi John
You dont need to use bisuits or anything elses to join the boards especially you only gluing two boards only together you can easy align the boards without any hassles.

You can use one piece if you wish is nothing wrong in doing so as far the board is kilm dried to arount with arount 10 to 11 moisture level will be ideal the only difference will be is harder to get one wider board & the cost will be much more expensive than two smaller boards.

In regards to the biscuits or dowels they do nothing to the strength of the joint if anything makes the joint weaker is only are used for align the boards & ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE.Now days we got the best glues available in the market so you can get a very strong bond in the joints. Also you do not need a lot of pressure with the clamps only you need enough pressure to bring the boards together for a nice & just tight joint.

John

[glenn bradley]

I have done edge joints with pocket holes before a couple times. If the holes will be hidden and will not interfere with anyone making the bed (tucking in the covers) I see no problem. On many such joints I use only glue.

[Brian Dormer]

Biscuits will help keep the faces aligned in a glue up - but will not really make the joint any stronger. A proper glue up will be plenty strong all by itself. Some woodworkers would do the glue-up without any biscuits at all and still have the faces flush. I'd use biscuits - it's cheap insurance.

Pocket screws can be used to join panels - but are better suited to joining stile and rail or face-frame type connections. Screws would add strength to an edge joint - but again - if the glue up is done right, you don't NEED the extra strength.