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View Full Version : just bought a house and it came with a new woodshop, need help



brad kellner
02-21-2008, 12:44 AM
i just bought a fixer upper tax repo house for 6500, in good sound condition with new windows, water heater, roof/gutters, and brand new bathroom. that me and the fiance decided to buy and live in and completly remodle over the next year, and have finished by next january (when were getting married).

i was planning on buying property and building a brand new house but ended up running across this place and bought it with the plans of reenting it out in a few years when we decide to build a new house. it hase a brand new garage 16x24x8. and the garage is so new the framing is still bright yellow and hasnt discollered at all. i decided to wait on building my dream garage with the house until this house is finished and rented. my question is on laying out the garage and heating it. it has a 50 amp fuse box (after closing it will have a 50 amp breaker box) now. anyone have any ideas on setting up for a dedicated shop in a space this size. there will never be any cars parked in it and anywere i put machines (cab saws etc.. that dont have mobile bases ) i plan on keeping them. any help with the layout would be greatly appreciated. i mostly do cabinetry and bookshelf and entertainment centers if that helps with the assisting me with layout. also any help with some stuff to consider before moving tools in would be appreciater also. im not moving in tools for about a month so i would like to get started with gathering materials now to get ready for it.
thanks in advance
brad

Joe Chritz
02-21-2008, 6:22 AM
Chances are that no matter how much you plan you are still going to make changes.

Grizzly has a free on line service for shop layouts. Sketch up can do nice mock ups or you can figure needed space and draw it to scale by hand.

Leave room for anything you would need on each machine and set it up. You will eventually find a set up that works well. About 9 years + or minus.

Joe

Jim Mackell
02-21-2008, 8:47 AM
Are you saying that you bought this house and garage for six thousand five hundred dollars? :eek:

Rob Russell
02-21-2008, 9:29 AM
it has a 50 amp fuse box (after closing it will have a 50 amp breaker box)

Is that 50 amp panelboard just for the garage/workshop, or is that the service for the whole house?

Mike Wilkins
02-21-2008, 10:54 AM
First things first. If that 50 amp panel is for the whole house, an upgrade should be the first order of business. This is barely enough to supply the house, let alone the addition of a shop.
THEN the shop. My current shop is the same as yours; 16 X 24 with an attached storage room (16 X 16).
My tablesaw is on the right-hand side of the long wall. This gives me room to maneuver a sheet of plywood for ripping. The jointer/planer is on the left wall, closest to the DC (which is located in an attached 4 X 8 shed on the side of the shop, with through-the-wall piping). Everything else is on wheels, getting moved when needed. The workbench is on one short wall, under the window, and there is one 8 foot long cabinet for storage & extra work space.
Don't forget to place cabinets on the walls at eye level. The latest issue of FWW Tools and Shops outlines just such a wall system used the its author, Matthew Teague. And don't worry about getting the perfect set-up right off the bat; shops are always in transition, especially if new machinery enters the picture. Good luck and watch those fingers. Count to 10.

Chris Padilla
02-21-2008, 11:51 AM
For starters, you'll want to think about your electrical outlet layout and that will depend upon your answer to some of the questions above but in general, you'll want a circuit of 120V/20A. How many on this one is up to you but don't be shy with it and consider multiple heights for these receptacles as well. Some at the regular 12" height will be fine but you'll want others at "bench height (~32-35") and "above plywood height" (~52-54"). You may need to make this circuit GFCI protected as well. You may wish to double gang the outlets and have two separate 120V/20A circuits (i.e. 2 receptacles per box). One bit of advice if you do that, just know that GFCI protected circuits each require their own neutral. :)

Next on the list will be some 240 V outlets. You'll need to decide if you want those at 20A or 30A current ratings. My personal preference is to "wire for the future" and therefore just make them all 240V/30A and that way you'll be able to run just about anything you want. You'll limit yourself slightly going 240V/20A. I don't know the codes in your area but often 240V/30A circuits cannot be daisy-chained like good old 120V/15A or 120V/20A circuits can. In other words, each 240V/30A circuit can only have one receptacle on it so if you plan to put 8 of these in, you'll need 8 circuit breakers. Some of these 240V/30A circuits you'll want dedicated to things like an air-compressor or dust collector or heater or a/c or whatever. Most home air compressors don't require 240V/30A, however. 120V/20A dedicated for a home air compressor is usually sufficient.

Finally, you'll want to think about lighting and you may wish to have that on its own circuit as well (120V/15A or 120V/20A). I highly recommend the T8 fluorescents: fire up quickly in the cold and no buzzing.

You may wish to insulate the garage and then you'll have to think hard about if you want plywood on the walls or OSB or sheetrock. Fire codes may steer you here.

After all that, paint everything a very, very boring semi-gloss white to reflect light well.

Generally:

15 A circuits need #14
20 A circuits need #12
30 A circuits need #10

I wired my whole garage in #10 regardless just to make it easier on me to buy just one gauge of wire. Wire is more expensive now so that may not be the best idea but it worked for me at the time I wired my garage.

Rob Russell
02-21-2008, 12:52 PM
For starters, you'll want to think about your electrical outlet layout and that will depend upon your answer to some of the questions above but in general, you'll want a circuit of 120V/20A. How many on this one is up to you but don't be shy with it and consider multiple heights for these receptacles as well. Some at the regular 12" height will be fine but you'll want others at "bench height (~32-35") and "above plywood height" (~52-54"). You may need to make this circuit GFCI protected as well. You may wish to double gang the outlets and have two separate 120V/20A circuits (i.e. 2 receptacles per box). One bit of advice if you do that, just know that GFCI protected circuits each require their own neutral. :)

It's a garage. The 120v receptacles must be GFCI-protected if it's to the NEC. Even if the electrical code as adopted in your area doesn't require it, I'd GFCI-protect the 120v circuits anyway.



Next on the list will be some 240 V outlets. You'll need to decide if you want those at 20A or 30A current ratings. My personal preference is to "wire for the future" and therefore just make them all 240V/30A and that way you'll be able to run just about anything you want. You'll limit yourself slightly going 240V/20A. I don't know the codes in your area but often 240V/30A circuits cannot be daisy-chained like good old 120V/15A or 120V/20A circuits can. In other words, each 240V/30A circuit can only have one receptacle on it so if you plan to put 8 of these in, you'll need 8 circuit breakers. Some of these 240V/30A circuits you'll want dedicated to things like an air-compressor or dust collector or heater or a/c or whatever. Most home air compressors don't require 240V/30A, however. 120V/20A dedicated for a home air compressor is usually sufficient.


Chris, Chris, Chris ... sigh ;)

1) There is nothing that says you can't have multiple receptacles on a 240v circuit. If all that would ever be running concurrently was a) a 240v dust collector and b) some other 240v machine, you could do all that with (2) 240v circuits. Run a dedicated circuit for the DC and a separate, 240v/20-amp circuit with several receptacles for your machinery.
2) You can't put 15 and/or 20 amp receptacles on a 30-amp circuit. Look at Table 210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings for Various Size Circuits. 30-amp circuits require 30-amp receptacles.



There is a specific point I need to make about 30A circuits and using only 30A receptacles, and that is the fact that this requirement is not limited to 120V circuits. The requirement also applies to 240V circuits (as well as 277V, 480V or even 600V circuits).



Rob
Addy protocol: unlicensed, homeowner electrician

Daniel McCurdy
02-21-2008, 1:29 PM
It's a garage. The 120v receptacles must be GFCI-protected if it's to the NEC. Even if the electrical code as adopted in your area doesn't require it, I'd GFCI-protect the 120v circuits anyway.


I just had a garage built and this is correct...also, I believe that they have to be set higher than the 12" you'd find in the house. All of mine are nearly 4' from the floor. Just one of those details you might want to look into before doing all the work and then being forced to change it up to code in order to rent it out.

Did you seriously buy it for $6500? I'd like to see some pictures, it sounds like its in pretty decent shape. You'll do well on that after fixing it up!

Russ Peters
02-22-2008, 8:21 PM
The 4' high requierment (at least in TN) in a garage or anywhere that has the potential for a buildup of flameable fumes (or some legal speak type phrase) so that if something sparks when you plug it in you don't blow yourself up. I found out the hard way when I went to sell a house that I had run power along the garage walls in.

Rob Russell
02-22-2008, 8:33 PM
The 4' high requierment (at least in TN) in a garage or anywhere that has the potential for a buildup of flameable fumes (or some legal speak type phrase) so that if something sparks when you plug it in you don't blow yourself up. I found out the hard way when I went to sell a house that I had run power along the garage walls in.

There is no requirement in the NEC for garage or workshop receptacles to be 4' high off the floor.

I will freely admit that I have not looked at the sections of the NEC that deal with the various classes of installations (hazardous, etc.).

Still, I'd want to see the local code requirements (vs. inspector whim) that said receptacles had to be 4' off the floor. If there is a local requirement, it's a good example of how ther NEC is not always the "law of the land".

Daniel McCurdy
02-22-2008, 9:00 PM
There is no requirement in the NEC for garage or workshop receptacles to be 4' high off the floor.

I will freely admit that I have not looked at the sections of the NEC that deal with the various classes of installations (hazardous, etc.).

Still, I'd want to see the local code requirements (vs. inspector whim) that said receptacles had to be 4' off the floor. If there is a local requirement, it's a good example of how ther NEC is not always the "law of the land".

I'll ask and see. It would be interesting to know, because if they don't have to be there, I'll probably move some down.

Ben Cadotte
02-22-2008, 11:51 PM
That is the same size garage I had at our rental house. 16' wide by 25' deep. The garage door was tight against the right wall as you look at it from the front.

I had 2 configurations that I used in there. First was with my table saw with a large side table sitting in place. I had it 9' in from the main door and as tight to the wall as I could get it. Could rip 48" on it. Between the saw and garage door was pegboard that I hung blades and couple saw items. The side table had a shelf and I kept a 12" planer on it.

In back of the saw I had a 3' x 6' rolling table that was the same height as the saw. I useually kept it so the long dimension was perpendicular to the saw. To the right of the table I kept the jointer on a mobile base. Between the jointer and table saw I kept a scrap box for cutoffs.

At the end of the jointer I had my bandsaw on a mobile base, but really didn't move it that often. And in the corner comming out at a 45 angle was my 24" scroll saw on a fixed stand.

In the front left corner I had 2 18" x 36" wide shelving units(in an L configuration), following down the wall 2 craftsman 24" wide rolling tool boxes stacked. Another small 18" wide shelf unit. Then I had a 30" x 4' bench, 30" x 2' lowerd section for scms, and another 30" x 4' bench. At the end of that bench was the drill press. And followed by a 40" lathe.

Was decent room to move around in. At least 4' between the benches and saw.

After I started accumlating things, I took the side table off the saw and moved the fence back to 24" rip and placed it on a mobile base. Had accumulated way too much for the little garage. But still managed to have enough room to work safely.

Initially just 1 - 15 amp circuit. I finnaly had a 20 amp circuit added. The house only had 100amp service and was a rental. I then made my own 50' extension cord from 8 gauge sj cable and ran 220 and another 20amp 120 circuit that I could roll up when done. Outlet was in basement of house, but not too far away. For heat I just used propane construction heaters.

For lights I had 6 4' 2 tube lights. Garage also had 5 windows so light was good.

While I was away at work my wife and her father hung pegboard all the way around the garage as x-mas gift. So had lots of places to hang items on the walls.

Harry Goodwin
02-23-2008, 11:03 AM
I have a great shop. My mistakes were the recepticals are 15 amp rather than 20 and I have had to add them. Had plenty of service with 100 amp. Also think twice about insulating the garage since it would help in heating and cooling. Once you move in with tools and storage changing things is nearly impossible at leaste impractical. Harry

brad kellner
03-07-2008, 9:55 PM
sorry i havent been around been kinda busy with dealing with the realitor (he was paid upfront and now he is dragging his feet) yep the house was only 6500 before realitor fees, all the permits, tittle insurance, 2008 property tax, and all those misc cost that really seem to add up. all said and done it is about 9000. i put 2500 down and am waiting for the closing date to write out the next check. i just finally got the contract signed and have to wait another 30 days for closing hopefully if all goes well on april 4th i will have the keys.

the garage has 50 amp fuse panel that im planing to change to a 50 amp sub panel with breakers. been toying with the idea of adding another 50 amp box also. in the shop i really want one breaker to one outlet. i dont want to have steal a little juice here and there. it isnt like a house were they will be placed for convience. they will be placed with specific tools in mind. for the 220v tools all i can think of could be a table saw and a planer. the planer is only a g1021 2hp 15" from grizzly (i dont own this planer yet but im hoping to own it by the end of the weekend) and i figure on running it on the recamended 20 220v breaker. my current table saw is 110v 2 hp craftsman table saw one of those 3/4 cab saws, but will be upgrading to a grizzly g1023slx hopefully mid summer. so since i have a 110v planer and table saw right now. im going to put a 110v 20amp outlet right next to the 20 amp 220v outlets and use it for a line for a dust collector when i make the upgrades. i plan on insulating with r13 in the walls and r 19 in the ceiling. garage comes with an insulated steel entry and steel insulated garage door. drywall on the walls and cieling. i would have chose osb painted white but i got a bunch of 1/2 by 12 drywall left over from a addition job i just finished and am not going to need to much more to do the whole garage. for lighting i got 8 twin tube 8ft flourecent lights with those cold start ballast that work in cold weather. i bought these a few years ago and have been storing them. i am going to epoxy coat the floor with a little bit of sand mixed in to give it a little grip.

my big problem im having is with the tool layout. im down sizing from around 28x28 to 16x24 but with this there will be no garage clutter it will be a dedicated workspace. i want to set up mostly for cabinetry if that helps with helping me with the layout.mike can you post some pics of your shop since your working out of the same size shop. this shop is going to be what i do my side work out of (general home remodling, electric, plumbing, additions, alot of cabinetry and furniture work) for the lext few years until i buy a bigger house. then im just leaving this set up for mainaing my rental property and am going to take my big expensive woodworking tools and build my dream shop elsewhere outside the city were the ghetto superstars are afraid to go to steal stuff.

the only tool i have a good idea about were i want to have placed is the table saw and the 4x6 outfeed table. i am going to set it up in the front of the garage infront of the door about a ft from the door so i can rip 8ft doors with the door closed but if the need arises to rip larger wood i can open the garage door and push the material outside a few feet. the only reason im doing this is becuase that is how i have it set up right now and it seems to work very well for me, but as for everything else im kinda baffled on the layout.
some of the tools i am going to need help with the layout are.
clamps (a whole bunch of them)
a custom cabinet for my drill chargers, twin tank compressor, nail guns and drills
6 in jointer,
15 in planer
12" compound slide saw
10" radial arm saw
totes with

Kyle Costlow
03-08-2008, 3:45 AM
Forgive me I am young and dumb... but these numbers are really one zero larger right? This forum has a language of its own, I find myself googling all the acronyms... I still cant figure some out... my girlfriend liked LOML:)

brad kellner
03-09-2008, 3:55 PM
kyle
i really dont understand what you are asking? can you maybe rewrite it a different way then i might understand you question and be able to help you with an answer
brad

Ed Kilburn
03-09-2008, 8:29 PM
Man what a deal, my taxes are over $7000. If I could find a deal like that I would move yet tonight.

brad kellner
03-10-2008, 12:04 AM
search online for hud home listings. any defaulted fha insured morgage is a hud home and there are thousands on the market right now. do a little reaseach and you can find a decent house for 10-20k in most of america.

Anthony Scira
03-10-2008, 1:17 AM
I pay almost that much in mey monthly mortgage, taxes and insurance a MONTH !

Any of those houses left ?

Mark Engel
03-10-2008, 10:42 AM
I still cant figure some out... my girlfriend liked LOML:)

Then she will love SWMBO.

(She Who Must Be Obeyed) :D

brad kellner
03-11-2008, 12:18 AM
well on my way home from class at the union hall i stopped by home depot and bought some bear latex epoxy floor primer, paint (white), and some degreaser/cleaner. it was 9:10 when i got there so i didnt have any free hands to grab the anti slip sand to mix into the paint or the eching acid. but ill grab that tomorrow when im out paying bills and hounding the realitor. also got a new addition to the shop today, well it wont be here for a few days but i ponyed up and bought a real router a milwaukee 5625. i have been looking into buying it or a pc 7518 but after reading up on the 5625 it was red all the way. also by this weekend there might be a fairly new used grizzly 1023slx table saw going into the shop after all the pre move in work is completed. just ironing out some details and getting to some questions answered on it before i jump on it. my fiance is great, she was talking to me tonight about how she doesnt think i will have enough room to work comfortably in the garage and was talking to me about possibly extending out the garage a bit vs just waiting till the next house we buy and going ahead with making one a whole lot bigger rather than adding onto this one. ever since she reliezed she can just have me make anything she can dream up she is all about me setting up shop with the best tools i want and giving me all the room i need to make her projects she wants done. i just hope she doesnt realize im spending more on the new tablesaw than i did her engagement ring. lol

hey who ever suggested the grizzly shop layout program. i ended up checking that out and man it is about the greatest tool for layout availible.