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Stephen Edwards
02-20-2008, 6:15 PM
I frequently see the term "borg" in the posts here. I assume that it's perhaps an accronym for something but I don't know what it means! Someone, please help this hillbilly understand the terminology. Many thanks.........

Mike Kenney
02-20-2008, 6:17 PM
Home depot and lowes

Kacey Zach
02-20-2008, 6:18 PM
Big Orange Retail Giant

Lee Koepke
02-20-2008, 6:25 PM
buying oriental rejected goods :D

Stephen Edwards
02-20-2008, 6:25 PM
Thank you very much!

John Bartley
02-20-2008, 6:36 PM
Big box stores .... tagged with "Borg" .... likely to describe a similarity to the Star Trek entity of the same name and probably because of the tendancy for visitors to become assimilated and never shop anywhere else.....

cheers eh?

Rich Engelhardt
02-20-2008, 7:13 PM
Hello,
The Borg from the TV series Star Trek the Next Generation were a race of mostly machine which assimilated their sentient hosts into their collective.
In the process, they eliminated all (free) thinking life forms.

Lowes, Home Depot and WalMart all have a nasty habit of moving into a market, destroying the native competition from "the little guy" - then pushing their low quality "junk".
In the beginning, they present an attractive face, well stocked shelves, decent prices on decent merchandise and aisle after aisle of knowledgeable help.

As the smaller stores fold, the help is cut - both in quality and in numbers - and the "brand name" merchandise is replaced with a low cost/low quality "House Brand" (Kobalt & Husky) &/or some unknown (Global/Taskforce.Workforce).
Some of the more well know brands remain - Porter Cable/DeWalt, but,, the selection is extremely limited.

Borg is not a complimentary term.
It's a bit of a harsh slur against both the lack of quality/service and the business practices of the retailers themselves.
HTH (<-- = hope that helps)

Peter Quinn
02-20-2008, 7:22 PM
Describes a predatory hardware enterprise that attemps to take over the world with a central goal...profit...without taking customer satisfaction or quality into account anywhere in their business model. Often causes independent free thinking beings to revolt and fight against them before they assimulate the entire hardware world and leave you without choices.

Notice the price of Home Cheepo stock and quarterly profits last quarter? Down, way down. They attribute it to downturn in the housing/mortgage markets, though other competitors are showing continued strong growth. I believe the backlash is coming and the resistance is working.

I'm working on a new borg marketing campaign: "Hey, it's junk, but its cheap and the average American sells their home every 5-7 years anyway, so how long does it NEED to last?"

Stephen Edwards
02-20-2008, 7:30 PM
I hear ya and I agree 100%. I buy as much as possible from small locally owned lumber and hardware stores. I'm thankful that we still have a few around these parts.

john tomljenovic
02-20-2008, 7:49 PM
Also known as Big Old Retail Giant.

Peter Quadarella
02-20-2008, 7:54 PM
I think it started out as Big Orange Retail Giant because of Home Depot and the double meaning with the Star Trek Borg.

Eric Haycraft
02-20-2008, 8:21 PM
www.urbandictionary.com
This is where I figure out most acronyms on the interweb.

Gene Michael
02-20-2008, 10:54 PM
please tell me where i can find decently made power tools and accessories that i can afford. last year, bought a craftsman 15" lathe with a duplicator attachment. the lathe works adequately, but the dogs for the tailstock and tool rest are cheap plastic molded aroind a round bolt head with tiny grooves. am on my third set. the duplicator had so many miscast parts that i returned it. ordered a steady rest from woodcraft. its was heavily made, but with miscast parts. returned it. bought a porter cable 890 router that overheated seriously. PC customer service said it was because my voltage was low (not!). finally called the repair center who said there was a recall sue to overheating. they replaced the motor unit, but the shaft lock still sticks. bought a mid range delta contractors saw that was badly misassembled and way out of alignment. finally got it mostly aligned, but the splitter can't be adjusted enough to fully align with the blade. for those of us who can't afford general and powermatic, it would be nice to find a source for something other than cheaply made junk. sorry for the rant, but quality isn't what it used to be!!!

Eric Haycraft
02-20-2008, 11:40 PM
please tell me where i can find decently made power tools and accessories that i can afford. last year, bought a craftsman 15" lathe with a duplicator attachment. the lathe works adequately, but the dogs for the tailstock and tool rest are cheap plastic molded aroind a round bolt head with tiny grooves. am on my third set. the duplicator had so many miscast parts that i returned it. ordered a steady rest from woodcraft. its was heavily made, but with miscast parts. returned it. bought a porter cable 890 router that overheated seriously. PC customer service said it was because my voltage was low (not!). finally called the repair center who said there was a recall sue to overheating. they replaced the motor unit, but the shaft lock still sticks. bought a mid range delta contractors saw that was badly misassembled and way out of alignment. finally got it mostly aligned, but the splitter can't be adjusted enough to fully align with the blade. for those of us who can't afford general and powermatic, it would be nice to find a source for something other than cheaply made junk. sorry for the rant, but quality isn't what it used to be!!!

You may find it easier to solicit a response by posting a new thread. This thread is totally unrelated to what you are asking about.

Dave Falkenstein
02-21-2008, 10:26 AM
please tell me where i can find decently made power tools and accessories that i can afford. last year, bought a craftsman 15"...

Certainly not from Sears - at least not for the last 15 or 20 years!

Larry James
02-21-2008, 11:10 AM
I frequently see the term "borg" in the posts here. I assume that it's perhaps an accronym for something but I don't know what it means! Someone, please help this hillbilly understand the terminology. Many thanks.........

Stephen, I had the same question a few years ago - try this link for acronyms commonly used on SMC.

Credit list to Joe Myers, keeper of the acronyms.
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=56320&highlight=List+Acronyms

Larry

Bruce Benjamin
02-21-2008, 11:13 AM
Certainly not from Sears - at least not for the last 15 or 20 years!

You'll find more than a few people who would disagree with your assessment of Sears. Particularly those who have been happy with their more recent offerings in the bandsaw and tablesaw departments. I currently own neither but I've seen them in the stores and I've read very few negative reviews of either their 14" bandsaw or their line of hybrid tablesaws. Some of their other power tools are just rebadged copies of the same tools other companies sell.

Bruce

BOB OLINGER
02-21-2008, 11:47 AM
Thanks for the answer to the question. I, too, was wondering what a "borg" was. My opinion of the big box stores differs some from the previous posts that were knocking them. I will support the locally owned and operated hardware stores as much as I can. They are often closed when I need them (being woodworking is a hobby for me, most is done on the weekends and often the local independents are closed). Secondly, the big box stores have more items than the small stores. If I'm looking for a hard-to-find item or specialty item, I might as well head straight to Lowes (or other one). Third, the "borgs" have a wider selection to choose from. Fourth, like it or not, the "borgs" are usually cheaper. I fully appreciate the locals, but I also have to be responsible for my family's budget. I disagree that the "borgs" sell cheap stuff. I agree they may not sell the top models of tools, for example. If I want a Powermatic or SawStop (for example), I need to find the specialty tool shop (the locals would never carry the top end, either).

Danny Thompson
02-21-2008, 12:08 PM
Describes a predatory hardware enterprise that attemps to take over the world with a central goal...profit...without taking customer satisfaction or quality into account anywhere in their business model.

T or F? Independents = Good. BORGs = BAD.
Answer: FALSE.

I've gotta say, there are 2 independent retail woodworking shops in my town. The proprieters at both are, well, one is downright grumpy, not to mention snooty, and the other is a curmudgeon. Both seem totally driven by profit. Every piece of equipment is at the highest possible retail price. Any discounts are those provided by the manufacturer, and that's it. And many smaller items and accessories are above retail. For example, one has the old style Veritas honing guide (the Veritas Sharpening System), which is $42 at Lee Valley, priced at $85!!. A Lie-Nielsen or Veritas plane cannot be had at either joint; plenty of Shop Fox and Anant. Nice wood, with nice weekend staff at one shop. Otherwise, not much to speak of.

On the other hand, the guys at my local Lowes consistently do everything they can--sometimes they can't do much--to help find products or solutions to the challenges I have and do it with a great attitude. Granted, their products are limited or sometimes poor quality, but they never pretend to be more than they are.

Lastly, both independent shops close before I get home every day, and are closed Saturday afternoon and Sunday. The BORG is open until 9 or 10 every night and on weekends.

You guys with the Woodcrafts and Lee Valleys and Highland Hardwares, just realize that for many of us the BORG is about the only option we've got.

Bruce Benjamin
02-21-2008, 12:35 PM
T or F? Independents = Good. BORGs = BAD.
Answer: FALSE.

I've gotta say, there are 2 independent retail woodworking shops in my town. The proprieters at both are, well, one is downright grumpy, not to mention snooty, and the other is a curmudgeon. Both seem totally driven by profit. Every piece of equipment is at the highest possible retail price. Any discounts are those provided by the manufacturer, and that's it. And many smaller items and accessories are above retail. For example, one has the old style Veritas honing guide (the Veritas Sharpening System), which is $40 at Woodcraft and $42 at Lee Valley, priced at $85!!. A Lie-Nielsen or Veritas plane cannot be had at either joint; plenty of Shop Fox and Anant. Nice wood, with nice weekend staff at one shop. Otherwise, not much to speak of.

On the other hand, the guys at my local Lowes consistently do everything they can--sometimes they can't do much--to help find products or solutions to the challenges I have and do it with a great attitude. Granted, their products are limited or sometimes poor quality, but they never pretend to be more than they are.

Lastly, both independent shops close before I get home every day, and are closed Saturday afternoon and Sunday. The BORG is open until 9 or 10 every night and on weekends.

You guys with the Woodcrafts and Lee Valleys and Highland Hardwares, just realize that for many of us the BORG is about the only option we've got.

I agree with about everything you said about the, "Borgs". And regarding your last sentence, compared to the small, "Mom and Pop" hardware stores the places like Woodcraft, Lee Valley, and Highland Hardware are just as much another Borg store when it comes to driving them out of business. But you'll rarely hear one of the Borg bashers add them to their list of evil stores to avoid. It's not that I love HD or Lowes so much but I just don't see how they deserve such animosity. I've had good experiences and bad experiences at them just like at the Ace and True Value stores or the one small woodworking store in my town. That store, by the way, is part of a chain called, "Western Tool". The service I've received there has been hit and miss just like with either of the Borg stores in my town. There have never been any other woodworking stores that were driven out of business.

It's funny how the, "American Dream" is to build a successful business and make lots of money. But when you start to put other smaller, less successful stores out of business then you're the enemy of the, "American Dream". This may be a comment that's way off topic but if it wasn't for big business I suspect that we wouldn't be named the U.S.A. anymore because we would've fallen to another country. How's that for a can of worms?! :rolleyes:;)

Bruce

Jim Davenport
02-21-2008, 12:50 PM
Here's a photo of "the borg cube space ship" kinda reminds me of the HD store!:rolleyes:

Danny Thompson
02-21-2008, 1:20 PM
I'm not so happy about US products being replaced by Chinese. I am just saying that small business owners aren't necessarily any better than big.

Will Blick
02-21-2008, 9:12 PM
hey Rich, your BORG description was not from a novice ....

may we see a pix of your ears? Are you Vulcan? :-)

Bruce Benjamin
02-21-2008, 9:28 PM
I'm not so happy about US products being replaced by Chinese. I am just saying that small business owners aren't necessarily any better than big.

A lot of big business owners, (the Borg type stores I believe) started out as small business owners. Turning a small business into a big business is the American Dream. For better or worse, I wouldn't have it any other way.

I remember way back when Ross Perot was in the news and my liberal sister-in-law made the statement that nobody should be allowed to have that much money. I'll bet if she and my brother had the ability to make a billion dollars they'd jump at the chance. They complain about the big box stores but they sure do shop there a lot.:rolleyes: This is exactly the type of discussion that we never have anymore.;):D

Bruce

Peter Quadarella
02-21-2008, 10:39 PM
There's a big difference between a corporate owned company and a privately owned franchise like Woodcraft. If you spent your whole career in the corporate world you will know why. I will always support small businesses whenever possible as they are the ones that drive true innovation and originality, as opposed to cheaper faster. In addition, niche stores like woodworking stores will always provide a level of quality that the masses (and therefore the borg) have no interest in or knowledge of.

That said, the borg is great to have around and I'm really happy they are available. There is a market for both types of stores and I'm interested in keeping it that way.

Bruce Benjamin
02-22-2008, 12:47 AM
There's a big difference between a corporate owned company and a privately owned franchise like Woodcraft. If you spent your whole career in the corporate world you will know why. I will always support small businesses whenever possible as they are the ones that drive true innovation and originality, as opposed to cheaper faster. In addition, niche stores like woodworking stores will always provide a level of quality that the masses (and therefore the borg) have no interest in or knowledge of.

That said, the borg is great to have around and I'm really happy they are available. There is a market for both types of stores and I'm interested in keeping it that way.

I agree with you that there is a difference between the corporate stores and franchise stores but when you're a single, old fashioned type of hardware store or corner drugstore I don't think that difference is quite so big. Would you rather be ran out of business by Home Depot or Woodcraft? Well, neither, of course. But the end result is the same. But aside from ownership details, a big store like Rockler or Woodcraft or whatever other chain you can think of doesn't help the little guy any more than the Borg stores do.

But, I feel the same way you do and I think that's a very reasonable and thoughtful way to think...I'm glad there is more than one kind of place to shop and as long as we are free to spend our money as we all choose the consumer will decide who stays open and who closes it's doors. I'm sure glad I don't own a small mom and pop store front of any kind though right now. Too much stress!

Bruce

Stephen Edwards
02-22-2008, 5:57 AM
Stephen, I had the same question a few years ago - try this link for acronyms commonly used on SMC.

Credit list to Joe Myers, keeper of the acronyms.
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=56320&highlight=List+Acronyms

Larry


Thanks Larry, I've saved that link in a file in my SMC folder for future reference.

Stephen Edwards
02-22-2008, 6:49 AM
Wow! I'm glad that I asked my question that opened this thread. I've enjoyed the responses from ProBorgs, AntiBorgs and the Moderates. It's like political parties!

As with political parties, the reality is usually somewhere in the middle. Also, with the advent of the internet, both borgs and independents have the opportunity to serve our needs with stores that are open for browsing and shopping 24/7. The two business models are even working together to give consumers more choices.

I would consider Amazon.com to be the internet version of a borg. When I search for a tool, or anything else for that matter, I get results from both large corporate businesses and independents. The range in prices and level of customer service is astounding.

As for people who knock "cheap" Chinese goods, that's a very subjective point of view. For example, in my opinion the Grizzly Industrial business model is a perfect example of a successful "marriage" of Chinese goods and American ingenunity when it comes to offering woodworkers quality machines at competetive prices in a wide range of functions to suit the needs of the weekend woodworker, the small independent cabinet and furniture building shops and large production manufacturers.

I just purchased a Grizzly G0604XB. Here's a good example to make my points about the benefits of the net, Chinese goods, American ingenuity, and an internet version of a borg.

The "B" in the above mentioned tool stands for blemish. Grizzly received a shipment of the G0604X jointers that have a minor blemish on the powder coat paint on this machine. And, I do mean minor! Most people would never notice it. Because of this minor defect in the paint job, which doesn't affect the function of the machine at all, they aren't going to sell it as a "perfect" machine at full price. So, they list these machines on their ebay store, one a time...from time to time, discounted $125.00. They come with the same warranty as one you'd buy from their catalogue, retail stores or from their website.

I have a small shop and build mostly small to medium sized pieces. By taking advantage of the opportunity to buy a very well made Chinese machine through an American company on an internet version of a borg I have a machine that will perfectly suit MY needs for years to come. The delivered price was $544.00.

Borgs, independents and foreign goods are all here to stay. We all have choices when deciding on our consumer needs and the level of service that we expect and are willing to pay for. I love it!

Russ Filtz
02-22-2008, 7:42 AM
Chinese goods "can" be a good deal price wise, but you need to be extra careful on quality and quality control. I used to work in Hong Kong, and even the HK Chinese there were somewhat leery of goods from the mainland, but usually price won out! As has been shown numerous times over the last year or so, their quality control can be lacking sometimes, even at their modern facilities.

I can still remember a case where a shipment of barstools came in, made it through customs, and into users hands, and they ended up being RADIOACTIVE!! They had used recycled steel from some nuclear plant or something, melted it back down and made who knows what out of it. Now that probably wouldn't happen now as I'm pretty sure most things get screened for radioactivity at the ports, but?? I'm just saying you may not be getting the grade of steel/cast iron you think you are, even if it's not glowing!

Jay Jolliffe
02-22-2008, 8:14 AM
You Can say all you want against the "borgs". Where I live I'm glad they showed up. It made all the local lumber suppliers more reasonable. In 2003 my wife & my self moved to an Island of the coast of Maine. We came here to build our own house. I called all the local suppliers to get prices. Went to HD with the same list. They gave me a price for the same windows that everyone priced out. Well they were quite a bit cheaper. We saved about $50.00 to 75.00 per window. At 35 windows that adds up. Same on the plywood. HD was 10.00 cheaper per sheet. We used over 150 sheets of plywood between the floor, walls & roof. I'll admit that some of the stuff they have is crap. I've never had a problem with any tool I've bought there either. You just have to know what your looking for. I pulled into the local supplier with about half the load of windows on my truck to pick something else up. The owner asked where & why I didn't get the windows through him. Told him that they were cheaper at Hd. I told him I gave him the list & asked for his best price but he wasn't cheap enough. Now when I call for prices with him he's knows I'm shopping & he gives me his best price now. I think you have to save where you can & if you can buy the exact same from Hd for a lot cheaper I have to save some where. This house we built by ourselves is a little over 2,000 sq'. It's a modified cape........I know this will piss some off but your not paying my bills, I am. Now that the house is almost done I do buy a lot through the local suppliers for my woodworking projects & I even by tools through them.

Jay Jolliffe
02-22-2008, 8:30 AM
O.....BTW the local suppliers don't seem hurt by the "Borg" their still thriving & adding on with new stores or adding on to the existing one. So I don't think that HD hurt anyone here.

Stephen Edwards
02-22-2008, 8:56 AM
You Can say all you want against the "borgs". Where I live I'm glad they showed up. It made all the local lumber suppliers more reasonable.

Good Point....and well taken. When I moved here 10 years ago the local independent was hardly competetive with the Lowes store 45 minutes away. Man, have they ever wised up! You can get almost anything that Lowe's has (and many things that that they don't), great customer service and very competetive prices. Anything that I need in the line of general hardware....if they don't have they'll get it for me within a few days. It's one of the few places left where I can go pick through plywood and lumber, load my truck and THEN stop by the office.....tell them what I have and pay the bill.

Furthermore, I like keeping the sales tax money in our county. I'm not going to drive 45 miles, each way, to save 10 bucks. But I would drive that far to save 100 bucks. And the local independent knows that now. Competition is good for consumers.

In fact, I once asked for a discount on a large order of material for remodeling a barn. He told me that they have one price for everyone. If you buy 200 studs or 2 studs, it's the same price. That makes it work out well for the small consumer and his prices usually are better than Lowes by 3-8% anyway!

Jason Christenson
02-22-2008, 10:17 PM
I have mixed feelings on this. I like to support the family run Ace Hardware that's been here forever but at the same time I can't see any sense in paying their sometimes overly high prices. As a result, when we need something small (I'm usually buying stuff for the business that I am manager of.) I usually go to the Ace, but for most anything big, it's off to Menard's.

Jason

Belinda Williamson
02-23-2008, 9:52 AM
Hello,
The Borg from the TV series Star Trek the Next Generation were a race of mostly machine which assimilated their sentient hosts into their collective.
In the process, they eliminated all (free) thinking life forms.

You left out one thing Rich . . .

"Resistance is futile, you must assimilate.";)

Rich Engelhardt
02-24-2008, 8:33 AM
Hello Belinda,

You left out one thing Rich . . .

"Resistance is futile, you must assimilate

I worked for Builder's Square - the orange and blue borg.
The truth is - - I did resist - - and after not being assimilated, I was targeted for elimination. (I'm not making that up - the area manager was brought in from K-Mart to eliminate "problem" employees.)( I was a "problem" because I'd turned down a promotion & transfer out of state)

The stories I could tell about that place....
Absolutely horrid place to work, staffed with some of the finest people I've ever known.

One problem with midlevel and upper level managment in the retial sector is they don't "go away". They just move from one retailer to another. A lot of the losers that drive a business into the ground, end up being the same losers hired by the competition.

The bright side of this is that if my time at BS hadn't been so Gulag-like, I would probably have stayed in the retail field.
Despite what it may seem, I'm not in the least bitter about it, because it "forced" me into a different career path. I can remember almost every long dismal day of my nearly 25 year career in that field. the last ~ 20 years in electronics/computers has just flown by.

Anyhow - when I walk into a borg these days, it's always with an eye towards what's going on "behind the scenes".

Bryan Giles
02-24-2008, 10:10 AM
I'm not so happy about US products being replaced by Chinese. I am just saying that small business owners aren't necessarily any better than big.


If we (US product makers) stop making inferior products, the chinese products wouldnt have a leg to stand on.

Like the infamous PC 690. When you put out an inferior, under engineered Router, you open the door for a person to get angry and buy a cheepo chinese made HF router. I learned quickly... Buy older tools or tools with a long respected history of quality. I prefer used tools that have proven themselves however.

Most beginners start with cheaper products, then they learn rapidly about buying pricier QUALITY products.

I remember my days as a mechanic. I started with all the chinese made tools. One day I decided to make the leap to Snap-On Tools. Best decision I ever made. Well worth the $75 premium. I still have those Snap-Ons today. 17 years later.

It's a learning curve. We all start off small, then build in. If we find some success at our endeavors we start coveting the higher quality tools regardless of WHO manufactures them.

Bryan Giles
02-24-2008, 10:17 AM
Hello Belinda,


I worked for Builder's Square - the orange and blue borg.
The truth is - - I did resist - - and after not being assimilated, I was targeted for elimination. (I'm not making that up - the area manager was brought in from K-Mart to eliminate "problem" employees.)( I was a "problem" because I'd turned down a promotion & transfer out of state)


I remember Builders Square. LOL. WOW...

And, Oh yes... The HQ Fad. LOL....

As Picard proved... The BORG dont always win.. Remember Guinan????

Bruce Benjamin
02-24-2008, 2:00 PM
If we (US product makers) stop making inferior products, the chinese products wouldnt have a leg to stand on.


This is a ways off topic but what the heck, I'll contribute to it.;)

You're implying that if it's made in China then it must be junk. But at the same time you're saying U.S. manufacturers also make some junk. I think only one of those are correct. There is plenty of junk as well as high quality products made in both China and the U.S. I've bought some garbage products made in china but I'll bet many, (if not most) people on this forum have some Chinese-made tools that they are satisfied with. I'm going to include Taiwan-made along with Chinese. Some people will disagree but I think that line is pretty blurred.

If you go to any of the Borg stores you'll find quality tools made in both China and the U.S. and without looking closely I'll bet there are Tools where you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Although, I will agree that if you see something that really looks like junk for one reason or another, more often than not you'll find a, "China" label on it somewhere. They're getting better though.

Bruce

tim harris
02-24-2008, 3:10 PM
Radioactive barstools . . . so whats the problem? They lite up instead of us?;)

Stephen Edwards
02-24-2008, 3:39 PM
And now my two cents worth. I have don't have much sense but hopefully I have at least two sense!

I have a small business, unrelated to woodworking. I make personalized license plate frames. For years I bought the blank metal frames from an American manufacturer. Over time their quality went downhill to the point that their product was no longer acceptable. Furthermore, they didn't seem to care. The last order that I placed with them I had to return half the shipment. I was so frustrated! The next time I was ready to order I called them and asked about the quality issue. They had the gall the to tell me that they couldn't guarantee the quality!

Shortly after that a Chinese vendor contacted me through my website and offered to ship free samples of their product. It was everything I hoped it would be and their service was unsurpassed. And the price? about 40% less than the junk that I was buying that was made here in America, sad to say.

Needless to say, I have a new supplier. I've been buying the Chinese made products for 3 years now.

I'm with Bruce on this one. There are both good and bad products made here and in China. The American manufacturers that survive will do so only by making a superior product. They can not be complacent about this. China can make junk a lot cheaper than America can make junk. For the people who are thinking "cheap goods" only, they're going to go with the Chinese products. And I don't blame them.

We should not and cannot underestimate the ability of the Chinese manufacturers to continue to improve on quality. They are determined to do so. ISO factories, regardless of where they are located, are making top quality products. Grizzly Industrial is a perfect example of this concept. If they weren't delivering quality products to consumers they wouldn't have the reputation that they enjoy, and have earned.

As it relates to woodworking tools, it's deja vu all over again! Those of us who are old enough to remember can look back at the first Japanese automobiles that were imported into America. Remember how everyone said.....those are junk and they'll never make a dent in our market? Time has proven them to be very wrong.

I buy American made products if they are good quality at an affordable price. I don't mind paying even a LITTLE bit more to do so. But the first thing I'm going to look at now is quality....then price.

Whew! I guess we could say this HAS gone a bit off topic. However, in a way it's still on topic. To make my point, look at the country of origin label on the items in your shopping cart the next time you visit a borg OR and independent merchant!

Bruce Benjamin
02-24-2008, 5:05 PM
Well said, Stephen. I remember when I was a kid there was still a joke that if you looked at the back of some poor quality items you could expect it to say, "Made in Japan". Well, that certainly turned about 180 degrees so that the joke was on us. As you said, the quality of Chinese/Taiwanese products is ever increasing and I'll bet that it won't be too long before the, "Made in China" joke is on us just like with, "Made in Japan".

I realize that there are other issues with Chinese products other than just the quality. The cheap labor rates and the treatment/safety/human rights of the labor force are also factors when it comes to the lower prices of the goods. I'm no expert on any of this and it's too long of a subject to get deeply into it. But some people do use the human rights aspect when deciding where to buy. I'd like it if everything I bought was made by happy employees but it's a big world and I honestly don't have the time to sort through the political BS surrounding that sort of thing. I have trouble just deciding between paper or plastic bags at the grocery store and how it will effect the world according to His Royal Highness Al Gore. ;)

Bruce

Belinda Williamson
02-24-2008, 5:57 PM
Hello Belinda,


I worked for Builder's Square - the orange and blue borg.
The truth is - - I did resist - - and after not being assimilated, I was targeted for elimination. (I'm not making that up - the area manager was brought in from K-Mart to eliminate "problem" employees.)( I was a "problem" because I'd turned down a promotion & transfer out of state)


Rich, good for you. Resistance pays off. I just hope there are enough of us resistors out here.



As Picard proved... The BORG dont always win.. Remember Guinan????


Bryan,

Guinan . . . you gotta' love her character. My favorite Guinan line " That's the thing about crayons . . . they can take you more places than a starship." How true is that?

Please don't everyone beat me over the head at one time for drawing wisdom from a Star Trek episode. It's a weakness.