Power Tool Usage in Neander Haven

[Joe Close]

I've had the itching to get into wood working as a hobby for sometime. I've done a bit of reading, bounced around this forum and a few others picking up bits of information. Building a list of power tools I "think" I need, (probably just want)... Then I stumbled across Neanderthal Haven... This little section of SMC has me re-thinking my approach to this hobby. I'm now leaning towards woodworking using more hand tools than power tools, or maybe finding a balance between the two. I was curious, how often, if at all, any of you guys/gals are using a mix of power tools and hand tools. I'm wondering if a cabinet saw is still a good investment for a shop? Even if I'm leaning towards using more hand tools...

[Robert Rozaieski]

This is always a tough question because it really depends on what tasks you want to perform by hand and what you want to perform by machine. If you want to do most of your finer work by hand like cutting joinery and finish planing and shaping, but not do the grunt work like surfacing boards or long ripping, I suggest getting a planer and bandsaw. I didn't see much use for a table saw even when I did use some power tools (I don't use any anymore). I used my band saw and planer a lot. I hardly used the jointer because most boards were too wide and I could joint by hand just as fast as the jointer anyway.

Going all hand tool takes dedication and not a lot of folks do it. I do it because I like the process, even the grunt work. A lot of folks just do the joinery and final planing and shaping by hand but don't do the grunt work by hand because it's hard work and sometimes can be tedious and time consuming. You have to decide what the best path for you is and then let the processes tell you what tools you need.

[Mike Henderson]

I, for one, use a mix of power and hand tools. Especially for stock preparation, I use power tools. Flattening and thicknessing a board is best done by power tools, in my opinion. I also use a table saw for ripping boards, again because that process is a lot of work with hand tools.

But when it comes to joinery, I mostly use hand tools - so the chisel is my good friend.

Mike

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I am Bi. It's a lifestyle choice that I enjoy because I can swing both ways or have 'em together if I please.

[Danny Thompson]

I am Bi. It's a lifestyle choice that I enjoy because I can swing both ways or have 'em together if I please.

Hilarious!

[Chris Padilla]

I am Bi. It's a lifestyle choice that I enjoy because I can swing both ways or have 'em together if I please.

San Francisco is the place for you, Cliff! :p

[Chris Padilla]

I'm a power tool user learning the fine art of hand tools. It might be nice one day to go completely unplugged but I doubt it'll happen unless 'lectricity becomes scarce for some reason....

[Sam Yerardi]

I am probably 90% neanderthal and 10% machine. I'm not a purist, but I love the quiet time working with my hands. When I'm at work, the thought of picking up a hand plane or carving tool or a beautiful piece of walnut or sassafras thrills me and is what I dream about. I don't dream about going home and firing up the jointer or tablesaw. Working by hand just makes me feel closer to the 18th century old-timers and the more recent modern-day old-timers like my dad. I hate screaming routers (I have two), roaring planers (have one), etc. I use them but only when I have to so they're nice to have around. I do almost all of my day-to-day work with restored antique hand tools as well as hand tools I make. I tend to use a bandsaw more than any other power tool, but I would hate to be without a table saw or a planer. I rip lumber by hand when it gets larger than my bandsaw can handle. Sometimes, to save my back, I'll deeply score the wood first with a table saw all the way around. This helps keep the rip saw (frame or otherwise) straight for me. It isn't really necessary but when it comes to grunt work, I believe in working as smart as I can because I don't want to expend all of my energy on back-breaking work and have none left for hand work. Read James Krenov. He says the same thing. No sense killing yourself just to say I work by hand. I would not want to work 100% neanderthal because when I get tired the impetus to take short-cuts increases. I hate doing that so I stop working and go in and read until usually I fall asleep. I've got arthritis so I try not to make it any harder on myself than I have to. I will say that my first inclination is to always take the handtool route.

[Bob Smalser]

Concentrate on the work instead of the tools, and use what makes sense for the job.


Neanderthal

Main Entry: Ne·an·der·thal Listen to the pronunciation of Neanderthal Listen to the pronunciation of Neanderthal

Pronunciation: \nē-ˈan-dər-ˌtȯl, -ˌthȯl; nā-ˈän-dər-ˌtäl\

Function: noun

Etymology: Neanderthal, valley in western Germany

Date: 1863

1. A hominid (Homo neanderthalensis syn H. sapiens neanderthalensis) known from skeletal remains in Europe, northern Africa, and western Asia that lived from about 30,000 to 200,000 years ago —called also Neanderthal man

2. One who suggests a caveman in appearance, mentality, or behavior

3. A woodworking purist who eschews power tools in favor of the tools used by ancestors, often with great pride and exclusivity. This almost never applies to sharpening those tools however, where most Neanders demonstrate a remarkable level of hypocrisy, owning every power tool and storebought gizmo known to man.



;)

[Chris Padilla]

Concentrate on the work instead of the tools, and use what makes sense for the job.
;)

But, Bob!! The journey is half the fun and BUYING and USING tools is the other half of the fun. I rarely worry what those tools PRODUCE! :p

:D

[Joe Close]

Interesting thought on using a bandsaw for ripping. I guess I've always had in my mind that ripping was a TS job. I've had in my mind that bandsaws are generally used for making radius cuts, or re-sawing.

[Curt Harms]

Interesting thought on using a bandsaw for ripping. I guess I've always had in my mind that ripping was a TS job. I've had in my mind that bandsaws are generally used for making radius cuts, or re-sawing.
Many would consider ripping on a Bandsaw safer than ripping on a tablesaw especially when ripping reaction wood that is prone to moving when cut and either clamping onto the blade or spreading, pushing against the tablesaw fence and the back of the tablesaw blade producing an interesting reaction. The downside to ripping on bandsaws is the rip is usually rougher which requires jointing the sawn edge and altering the dimension of the piece. I hear carbide bandsaw blades have little or no set and produce rip cuts comparable to a table saw. I have no experience with that. I have tried ripping on my Rikon 14" saw and a Timberwolf 3/4" resaw blade. The cut was straight but needed a shallow pass thru the jointer to match the quality of a tablesaw cut.

HTH

Curt

[John Dykes]

Guess I can chime in on this, too.

I, and many others, come to forums like this to hear from those more experienced - to guide us and help us learn. There are drawbacks to this...

If you ask an Engineer how to build a bridge, he will tell you the specifics as speaking to another Engineer. If you ask a Teacher how to build a bridge, he will guide you to an understanding of how the bridge is built. Point being: statement of fact is sometimes far removed from teaching.

When I got the itch you describe, I read Internet newsgroups and message boards trying to "learn" how to approach working wood. Many of the folks who posted - were experienced "wood engineers" - many, if not most, of whom were professionals.

"Hello. I'd like to try to do woodworking as a hobby."

Buy a Unisaw! Buy 3 routers! Buy an 8 inch jointer! Buy a thickness planer! Buy micrometers! Buy the heaviest iron, the biggest motor, buy the most you can afford - "Buy once! Cry once!" I can't relate how many times I've read, "If you can afford to buy a Unisaw - or Powermatic - do it!" They told me what they needed for production or commission work. I needed to be taught, not told. Well intentioned, but bad advice. That same advice prevails today - but now der Festoolz and das Dominoz and $450 green colored routers have been added to the Unisaw "requirement."

Well - I bought the Unisaw. Used it for several years - great tool. 3 minutes here - 4 minutes there - built some nice things. But, for a starting weekend hobbyist, it's overkill - and, bluntly, a mistake.

Had I to do it over... I should have done this (ymmv):

Thought of a simple project - say a child's night stand with no drawers. A small top, an apron, 4 legs. Screw finding a plan, you'll feel better in making it up "freehand"- than trying to make it exactly like a plan drawing (errrr.. trust me).

- Go buy some wood (HD poplar if you must).
- Pick some dimensions for the top - doesn't matter. 24" x 24" or 25" x 27" or don't even measure it; the top doesn't care what size it is.
- Here comes the first set of lessons! Gluing up a panel for the top. You'll have to edge glue two or three or four boards together. Learn about jointing an edge, learn about planes that can act as a jointer (5,6,7 - don't care which), learn about buying used planes - and buy one. Learn about cleaning, tuning, and using them. Learn to sharpen - buy some stones and a guide. Practice on scraps. Glue your panel.
- Take what you've learned about planes - and adjust the one you bought, and flatten your panel. If you jointed decently, I bet the panel is pretty dadgum flat. Adjust your plane again, and smooth out the panel. Maybe get a cabinet scraper - learn about those to smooth some rough spots (not likely on poplar :) ).
- Take your plane and shape the legs a bit.
- Learn about cutting a mortise. Get some chisels. Use your sharpening stones, guides, and skills you've already developed. Practice. Cut the mortises in the legs.
- Cut the aprons to size - based on what looks good to you with the table top. Learn about tenons - use a nice handsaw to cut them, and perhaps a shoulder plane to tune them.

You get the idea...

Couple hundred bucks and you've got a starter set of nice tools, and stones - and the skill to use them. (And your first heirloom!)

Pick project 2. Rise. Repeat.

I probably spent $3000 before I built my first project. Then again, I'm not terribly bright...

Regards,
jbd

[Hank Knight]

Interesting thought on using a bandsaw for ripping. I guess I've always had in my mind that ripping was a TS job. I've had in my mind that bandsaws are generally used for making radius cuts, or re-sawing.

I use my table saw for ripping most stock. But when I have a big ol' 8/4 or 12/4 8' long piece of oak or maple, I rip it on my bandsaw. It's much more secure than muscling those heavy monsters through the table saw.

Like many others here, I use machines to dimension rough stock and to cut parts to width, length and thickness. I don't get any thrill from sweating over a hand plane flattening and thicknessing stock when my tailed jointer and planer are sitting right there. They are faster and more accurate than I am at these tasks and I don't have to work at it. Much of my joinery, particularly the final fit and finish, is done with hand tools. I enjoy the hand work and I like the way hand cut joinery looks. Some joints, however, are easier cut with machinery, like box joints for example. But even with these, I almost always finish with a hand plane. I probably fall a little into the Bob Smalser line of thought- I use whatever it takes to get the job done, so long as like the end product. But I'm not completely production oriented. Woodworking is my hobby; I do it because I enjoy it. Consequently, I choose tools for the job because I like using them, not necessarily because they get the job done the fastest. In many respects the journey is the destination.

Hank

[Billy Chambless]

Concentrate on the work instead of the tools, and use what makes sense for the job.


Once again, Bob is the voice of reason.

Both hard-core Neanderthal and full-drag Normism strike me as a bit goofy, er, I mean "not for me".

David Finck's recent FWW article on making wooden planes kind of supports this: he extols the virtues of old-fashioned wooden planes, then shows us how to make one -- using a bandsaw, drill press, and router table.

[Paul Johnstone]

I've had the itching to get into wood working as a hobby for sometime. I've done a bit of reading, bounced around this forum and a few others picking up bits of information. Building a list of power tools I "think" I need, (probably just want)... Then I stumbled across Neanderthal Haven... This little section of SMC has me re-thinking my approach to this hobby. I'm now leaning towards woodworking using more hand tools than power tools, or maybe finding a balance between the two. I was curious, how often, if at all, any of you guys/gals are using a mix of power tools and hand tools. I'm wondering if a cabinet saw is still a good investment for a shop? Even if I'm leaning towards using more hand tools...

You need to seriously consider the following:
What kind of stuff are you going to make? If you are planning on using sheet goods, then I'd say a tablesaw is a must.

Also, ask yourself why you are making the items? Is it for relaxation, pure enjoyment, no deadlines? Or do you need to bang out some shelves as quick as possible so you can get all the family cr*p off the floor? If getting the projects done quicker would improve your quality of life, then I'd say you should use power tools. If you intend to use your shop as purely a diversion and don't really mind spending a lot of extra time, by all means, hand plane every board. That's not a slam on the hand tool users, but a lot of people jump into the hand tool frenzy without realizing that it might literally take 20-100 times longer to complete a project (especially if you are not experienced). I helped one nice lady who was building a maple workbench. She thought she could plane and join all the boards by hand and was just worn out after months of handplaning. We brought the boards over, and the power jointer/planer made very short work of it.. She was relieved to have her bench done faster so she could have use of it.

[Joe Close]

Geezzz John, most of what you said has been tumbling around in my head lately. Particularly the bit about buying a unisaw, jointer, planner, router, etc, etc, gauges, etc, etc, etc. You really summed it up. I've been thinking, there has to be a simpler way, and you just outlined it :D

I really like building stuff from just my mind, no exacting plans, just kind of build as you go. Sometimes it works out, sometimes not. But is is usually fun trying

I really appreciate your thoughts on this!

[Bob Smalser]

But, Bob!! The journey is half the fun and BUYING and USING tools is the other half of the fun. I rarely worry what those tools PRODUCE!

It helps to eventually decide where you want to go with your hobby.

Those that just like to collect tools and make shavings are welcome to as far as I'm concerned. Providing they don't confuse that with the gradual improvement in craftsmanship that eventually results in high-end work of your own design. You only get there from here by putting the whole package together and building projects. The longer those projects take to complete, the fewer you get done. The fewer you get done, the slower you progress. Consider powered stock preparation tools as your apprentices.

The irony is once the more accomplished you become, the less you rely on power tools for either quality or speed. But that rarely happens until after say, 20 to 30 completed projects.

[Jim Becker]

Joe, using the "right" tool for any given operation is the bottom line, not how it's "powered". So your projects' designs, your skills, your time and other factors will help determine what you actually use at a given moment. Preference is also included in that list of decision factors.

Many of us would be hard-pressed to complete any large projects without the use of power tools purely over time. And many of us who are power tool users have also learned that hand tools can greatly enhance the end quality of our work.

So in the end...I agree with Bob. It's about the work and the end result. Even if you happen to enjoy a particular path most of the time, there is goodness in sometimes adjusting your route and seeing something different along the way.

[Michael Lutz]

I like the idea of using hand tools to complete projects, but at my current stage of experience I am not very good with them and find it easier to use power tools. I am also mainly using sheet stock to build shop cabinets to get stuff off the floor. Over time and through inheritance I have collected planes, chisels, and back saws. I have been reconsidering many of the power tools I once thought I could not work with out. What I am learning is how you use your tools, what ever they may be is much more important than what they are. I know some people can't live with out a bandsaw, but I don't have one, so most of my projects are designed with this in mind. In theory I could build stuff all by hand, and someday I might (small project), but I have projects around the house to be completed first which is the sole reason I originally purchased many of the tools in my shop.

Mike

[Mike Cutler]

It helps to eventually decide where you want to go with your hobby.

The irony is once the more accomplished you become, the less you rely on power tools for either quality or speed. But that rarely happens until after say, 20 to 30 completed projects.


.... and then you realize how much faster the right hand tool can be, than taking 3 days to fabricate a jig.
I have some jigs/templates that I have more attachment to than the furniture they were used to produce. Sad


Well stated Bob

[Pedro Reyes]

Joe,

I think the best advice was given by John D. and Bob S.
Figure out what you want to do, and like John said, pick a specific project, instead of trying to figure out what tools you think you need. I wish I had followed this advice.

It can all be done with just handtools, yes, but no need to follow that path. I mostly have hand tools and my only stationary powered tool is a lathe. But not by choice, by circumstances (long story). Once I get the space for stationary power tools I'll most likely get some. I am not hanging to this romantic ethereal idea of only using hand tools. The tasks I least enjoy are dimensioning and resawing so a planer and a bandsaw would be my first (and perhaps only).

But then again, I do this for relaxation, no rush on anything. And in the journey I have fallen in love with hand tools, so I would never stop using them I think. The downside for me has been less projects as Bob pointed out, so less experience.

I will say this, learning to use hand tools has given me a better understanding of the material... something as simple as knowing why you use a rip vs a crosscut saw makes you plan your projects better and understand joints better than by using a multipurpose carbide tipped table saw blade.

/p

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Joe, Yes, I use a mix. I don't have much time to spend in the shop, and I like to see results, so I use electric tools for most things. However, there is no random orbit sander that can compete with a good plane, and a dedicated wood molding plane is a lot faster to use than a router, that needs to be set up.

Somebody said, use the right tool for the job, I agree. There are a lot of neander practices that are still the most efficient methods. Smoothing planes, wood molding planes, and most hand cut joinery tools are alive and well in an efficent shop, IMHO.

[Mark Singer]

I learned using hand tools. Then power tools and machinery. I really rely on machinery now more and more. It saves time and can add accuracy. Some things really should be done by hand. Using hand saws, planes, scrapers,rasps is such a big part of woodworking. I don't think I would be much of a woodworker without hand tool skills. The work would not be as good. You need to put yourself into the work, feel it as your doing it, that is what hand work is about,

[Wilbur Pan]

I'm primarily a hand tool guy. But these are the machines I have in my shop:


Combo jointer/planer
Bandsaw
Lathe
Drill press

Why did I pick these?

The first two are there to do rough work and save time: initial milling of stock and big cuts.

The last two are there because they do things that I can't do with hand tools. The lathe, because I can't make turned items by hand, and the drill press because I'm just incompetent at drilling accurately with a brace.

(I suppose I should also mention dust collector and air cleaner in my machine list.)

[Gary Herrmann]

The other aspect of what Bob spoke to is time. This is my hobby. While I really like handtools, for larger projects especially, I'll do the grunt work with power tools and the finishing/detail work with hand tools - just so I can move on to the next project.

I plan to have an exclusively handtool only project or two in the future, but it won't be a bed, dining room table or entertainment center. It would take me forever. Then again, I tend to get pulled toward the lathe at inopportune moments ... :rolleyes:

[Jim Koepke]

I helped one nice lady who was building a maple workbench. She thought she could plane and join all the boards by hand and was just worn out after months of handplaning. We brought the boards over, and the power jointer/planer made very short work of it.. She was relieved to have her bench done faster so she could have use of it.

One really needs a good bench before they can do the hand work needed on the materials to build a bench.

My motivation to keep going with hand work instead of using power tools is multi faceted.

First, my shop is too small to find space for them.

Second, I am building stamina from using a rip saw and hand planes to work on the wood.

Third, I do not think about having a cigaret when I am huffing and puffing with a saw or plane. Been nicotine free for a little over a year now.

Fourth, as a late night kind of guy, none of the neighbors has complained about the noise from my hand tools. I am sure they would if an electric router or saw was fired up.

Finally, being over weight, it may actually burn a few more calories pushing on that heavy iron instead of flipping a switch.

jim

The tools I need for my work are paper, tobacco, food, and a little whiskey.
William Faulkner

[Sam Yerardi]

Even though I do most of my work with hand tools, as I'm building pieces the thought is always there that if I were doing this for a living, doing multiples, etc. my ratio of power to hand would be different. I enjoy both and use the best tool for the job at hand whether it be powered by hand or electric. I just find for myself, I reach first for the approach that I enjoy, and I add tools to my shop as my budget and each project dictates.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Had I to do it over... I should have done this (ymmv):

Thought of a simple project - say a child's night stand with no drawers. A small top, an apron, 4 legs. Screw finding a plan, you'll feel better in making it up "freehand"- than trying to make it exactly like a plan drawing (errrr.. trust me).

- Go buy some wood (HD poplar if you must).
- Pick some dimensions for the top - doesn't matter. 24" x 24" or 25" x 27" or don't even measure it; the top doesn't care what size it is.
- Here comes the first set of lessons! Gluing up a panel for the top. You'll have to edge glue two or three or four boards together. Learn about jointing an edge, learn about planes that can act as a jointer (5,6,7 - don't care which), learn about buying used planes - and buy one. Learn about cleaning, tuning, and using them. Learn to sharpen - buy some stones and a guide. Practice on scraps. Glue your panel.
- Take what you've learned about planes - and adjust the one you bought, and flatten your panel. If you jointed decently, I bet the panel is pretty dadgum flat. Adjust your plane again, and smooth out the panel. Maybe get a cabinet scraper - learn about those to smooth some rough spots (not likely on poplar :) ).
- Take your plane and shape the legs a bit.
- Learn about cutting a mortise. Get some chisels. Use your sharpening stones, guides, and skills you've already developed. Practice. Cut the mortises in the legs.
- Cut the aprons to size - based on what looks good to you with the table top. Learn about tenons - use a nice handsaw to cut them, and perhaps a shoulder plane to tune them.

You get the idea...

Couple hundred bucks and you've got a starter set of nice tools, and stones - and the skill to use them. (And your first heirloom!)

Pick project 2. Rise. Repeat.

Couldn't agree more. Pick something and build it. You'll figure out what you need (or don't need ;)) as you go.

[Bob Smalser]

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594265/74075148.jpg

In this simple 3-door hutch with top, there are 36 rails, 26 stiles, 3 drawers, 5 shelves, 14 frame and panel assemblies, and miscellaneous molding, invisible knife hinges and such.

Do y'all seriously think you're gonna thickness-plane, joint, rip and crosscut all those pieces by hand and get the job done in months part-time rather than years? Or get it done at all without losing interest? Even with traditional joinery without chinzy shortcuts like biscuits or pockethole screws, this is only a 80-hour project with the help of electrons. Without them, how will you ever progress to that 400-hour boat?

And like I said, it takes several completed pieces before you really understand your tools, hand or power. You're using them in a vacuum unless you master the dance of precision versus compromise in completing large projects. If you want to get better at woodworking, this is the only way. Otherwise you easily get wrapped around the axle about all the wrong things.

[Sam Yerardi]

You're using them in a vacuum unless you master the dance of precision versus compromise in completing large projects. If you want to get better at woodworking, this is the only way. Otherwise you easily get wrapped around the axle about all the wrong things.

So what if I work in a vacuum? I am enjoying what I do. If it takes me an hour to plane a board, I assure you I do it because I enjoy it. If I were doing a cabinet such as the one you posted, yeah, I'd probably use my planer, but not necessarily on all of it. Maybe I'm just wanting some time to myself to relax and think about things. For me sometimes it's the journey - not the destination. Maybe I enjoy the use of a hand plane, etc. Just because I choose to not use a power tool does not make me a poorer woodworker (tell that to the cabinetmakers of the past 300 years, some of whom have handcrafted beautiful furniture that can't be duplicated by machines). With that in mind I completely but respectfully disagree that if I don't use power tools I won't be a better woodworker. I'm not sure I understand your last sentence but in woodworking, as we all know, there is more than one way to skin a cat. I can use scissors or electric trimmers :)...

[Joe Cunningham]

Had I to do it over... I should have done this (ymmv):

Thought of a simple project - say a child's night stand with no drawers. A small top, an apron, 4 legs. Screw finding a plan, you'll feel better in making it up "freehand"- than trying to make it exactly like a plan drawing (errrr.. trust me).
Regards,
jbd

Very good suggestion. I just started out and my first tools were:
Dozuki saw
3/8" chisel
1/4" chisel
block plane
B&D workmate
Sand paper & plate glass

Maybe $150?

I started much smaller and built a dovetailed box with some HD poplar after practicing my sawing, planing and chiseling technique on 1/2 the stock I bought. Chamfered the top, and now I have a place to put my plane and chisels. It isn't perfect, but next I get to practice my finishing on something that if it gets slightly messed up, I won't mind.

I plan to do a few more boxes before I move on to a nightstand and eventually a proper workbench.

I also learned that my 1/4 chisel and block plane are probably not worth the little $$$ I paid for them as both lost their edge quite quickly.

[Raney Nelson]

... I like 'em a LOT. I like to buy new tools, tune 'em up and try all kinds of silly things with them. When i started using handplanes, it was to avoid having to get a jointer and planer. I did all prep by hand. One day I remembered what Bob referred to above: that I got into this to make beautiful stuff out of wood. There are some things that machines are faster at for me. Stock prep is the biggest. I bought a jointer and planer. I don't love 'em the way I love my homemade half-back saw, or the LN 5-1/2 I saved for - but I love that I get boards square and true in minutes instead of hours. Apprentices is exactly how I look at them - they do the work I'd rather not spend my time doing.

Personally, I am glad I spent some time prepping stock by hand. It taught me a lot about how to use planes for more than just the bizarre thrill of being able to read a newspaper through the shavings. More importantly, it taught me a lot about how wood IS, about grain and runout and figure. It taught me a lot about how the wood likes to be worked. It's very hard to learn these things on a machine, and it makes the final results much better.

But I'm also glad I don't have to learn those lessons anymore. I like my apprentices.

'If I were starting over' is a silly thing to say, because if I started differently I wouldn't end up where I am while I'm deciding what I wished I started with. However, I personally think Wiley's post above is exactly where I would go: I would have a powered jointer, planer, and bandsaw first and foremost. Then a lathe, and a drill press. If I were going to do more than occasional work with plywood, MDF, etc, I would definitely get a tablesaw. The only other things I can think of that plug in and see a lot of use are my grinder, and the dust collector that makes the other machines a little more palatable.

Also, don't tell anyone, but I also appreciate having a RO sander from time to time. I hate using the damn thing, but I'm not throwing mine out anytime soon. Sometimes it's the easiest way to get where I want to go. But if you tell the other kids, I'll deny it ;)