East & West -- Machine Made & Hand Made

[Dan Racette]

I am starting a new post that was referred from another about Cast steel chisels. We were discussing several concurrent topics.

Trying to quantify the specifics in the steel in hand crafted stamped by the maker Japanese chisels. Trying to get some posters to explain the process of what the makers do to the steel and if it was similar to the way (in a rudimentary way) to how "cast steel" or "crucible steel" used to be made in the west.

Wondering why that process hasn't become a machine made process.

And finally sort of debating if Japanese chisels cut better than western chisels as users had different experiences.

We had some users who said that Japanese chisels cut much better, but other said the opposite, and then it was pointed out that there was a difference in the type of chisel you might find that was a true "Japanese chisel".

I'd love to open a friendly, non-personal attack, discussion.

Dan

[Mike Henderson]

I'll start the thread with some comments about machine made tools verses hand made tools.

A good analogy might be furniture. Hand made furniture can be a unique design (even one-of-a-kind) but is generally expensive because of the amount of hand labor involved. It may, or may not, be better made (utilize better materials and joinery) than factory made furniture. A well designed and well made piece of furniture can become a family heirloom, or more.

For people who appreciate the uniqueness of the furniture, there's no substitute.

But the vast majority of people are simply looking for a piece of furniture that looks good and functions properly for an acceptable period of time, perhaps 20-30 years. They know that their taste will change in that time and they'll want to redecorate. Because of that, they do not want to pay the cost of handmade furniture - they want the best "value" for their money.

To me, tools fall into that same category. They are simply utilitarian devices I use for some purpose. I ask that they do the job they were designed to do and do that job well - at a price I can afford. I appreciate a tool that functions well (such as a Mitutoyo combination square) and does not "get in my way" when being used - a tool that is well designed and properly manufactured.

I further appreciate the accuracy and consistency of a machine made tool. I know that any example of the tool I purchase will be essentially the same.

Finally, price is very important to me. I cannot afford to pay large amounts of money for my tools, and even if I was very rich, my personality would not allow me to spend my money for things I don't need.

So to sum up, machine made tools provide accuracy, consistency, and availability at a price I can afford. And based on the relative volumes of machine made and handmade tools, I think most craftspeople feel the same way.

Mike

[Wilbur Pan]

There's a good description of how Japanese tool steel is made and used in the production of a samurai sword from an episode of Nova on the PBS website (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/samurai/swor-nf.html). The same process is used for making other Japanese woodworking tools. If you get a chance to see this episode, it's highly worthwhile.

But basically, a bunch of iron-bearing sand and charcoal are shoveled into a furnace and bruned together for three days. Unlike western steel making techniques, this steel never reaches the molten point, which means that the carbon content in the chunks of steel obtained from this process varies. Lower carbon steel tends to be durable, but not hard, while the higher carbon steel tends to be very hard, but brittle. The low and high carbon steel are sorted and ultimately laminated together to make the sword (or chisel, or plane blade) by forging.

The main differences I see between this process of making steel and what Harry Strasil described in the other thread is that there is no melting process and a higher reliance on forging.

[Don C Peterson]

Actually, there are machine made laminated (Japanese style) chisels out there. I own a couple (the generic ones that Woodcraft sells), and I can't really tell the difference between them and their hand made (Matsumura) counterparts in terms of edge holding and retention. Those are the things that really count in a chisel, and despite the mysticism that is sometimes invoked when talking about hand forging, my understanding is that edge retention is a function of the raw material and the hardening/tempering process. Moreover, it's a balancing act between competing ends. I have a couple of LN chisels and I have a small collection of vintage "cast steel" chisels. With the exception of one of my vintage chisels, they are all fine.

The Japanese and LN chisels tend to hold an edge a bit longer, but the LN's are harder to sharpen, and the Japanes chisels have a tendency to chip if I'm not careful. The vintage chisels, sharpen up very nicely and moreover, they are easy to keep sharp with just a few quick passes over a strop.

If you start out with good steel, and treat it correctly, there's no reason that a machine made edge tool can't be just as good as the best hand forged one. I'd even be willing to bet that assuming the same committment to quality, the machine made tools will be more consistently good than the hand made ones, and cheaper to boot. The problem is that most machine processes are developed in order to drive production costs down. If that is the driver behind the decision to mechanize, that same motivation tends to lead companies to cheap out on the materials too. Examples of this are all too plentiful.

However, automation using CNC machines and computer controlled kilns etc... is what allows Lie Nielsen and Lee Valley to offer high quality tools at reasonable prices. Tools made to the exacting specifications of LN or LV would be prohibitively expensive if they were hand made, if they could be made at all...

This seems like kind of a weird argument for a hand tool guy to make, but my contention is that quality furniture is something that is much more difficult to automate and the machinery required is expensive enough that the law of diminshing returns kicks in, particularly when setting up a home shop. My preference for hand tools is not driven by romanticism, but by pragmatism. I don't have production schdules to meet, and good hand tools tend to be cheaper, more versitile, and last longer than power tools, not to mention less messy and quieter.

[Robert Rozaieski]

I think the "best" tool is in the eye of the beholder and depends on their desires and intended end use. While things like hardness, carbon content, grain size, etc. can be quantified and measured, other things like asthetics, comfort in use, etc. cannot. The "best" tool really depends on what combination of these characteristics you are looking for.

I have no experience with Japanese tools of any sort, but I do own some old cast steel firmers, new AI bench chisels and Ray Isles mortise chisels. The steel in all of these has different qualities. The cast steel firmers are my favirites to sharpen. They take an extremely sharp edge and are very easy to re-hone quickly. They maintain this edge long enough, however they do not hold it as long as the AI bench chisels (O1 I think but a little harder than my cast steel). The AI chisels hold their edge longer than the cast steel and get just as sharp, but at the price of having to spend a little longer on each stone due to the harder steel. The Ray Isles mortisers (D2 steel) hold their edge for what seems like forever, however, they are extremely hard to hone and don't take near as sharp an edge as my cast steel chisels.

The ideal characteristics of a tool are always a compromise no matter what tool you are talking about. The D2 is real tough so you don't need to sharpen too often (good for mortises) but not real sharp (so you need to pare the ends of the mortise with another chisel to clean them up after chopping). A cast steel mortiser on the other hand is real sharp which is great for paring crisp mortise ends, but it looses its sharpness faster, requiring more frequent honing.

I don't necessarily think that hand made is better than machine made or vice-versa. Both methods can be done and done well to produce a very fine product. It comes down to what is important to you. In my case, I don't think that Japanese chisels would be "best" for me regardless of who made them and how expensive they were. I use oil stones, which would have more difficulty honing Japanese blades than the traditional fast cutting water stones used in Japan. I like to hollow grind, a big no-no for Japanese chisels. I work mostly hardwoods, not the traditional Japanese lumber of choice (they have different chisel characteristics for hard and soft wood). I don't like the feel or the asthetics of the Japanese chisels. For me, the cast steel firmers have the best combination of edge holding, easy of honing, comfort and cost of ownership.

So I don't think the question "is East better than West" or "is hand made better than machine made" is really fair unless you can quantify every aspect of the comparison and unless every person had the same ideals regarding what "best" means. Best is going to be different to everyone.

[Dan Racette]

Thanks everyone for posting. I think we have a wide variety of opinions.

Still think I'd like to hear from more people who actually own some good Japanese tools, or who are tried and true Japanese tools users, versus a western tools users.


dan

[Don C Peterson]

Well, I started out using Japanese chisels and saws. I still use the chisels although I do tend to reach for the vintage cast steel chisels more now... I gave up on the japanese saws about a year ago. I could never cut straight with those things, and it's not like I totally cheaped out on them either. For a period of about a year and a half I bought progressively better saws, thinking that they might help. It wasn't until I switched gears and went to western style saws that I was able to make decent dovetails. YMMV

I really like the idea of cutting on the pull, it just seems to make sense to me, but the results were terrible at least in my hands...

[Mike Henderson]

I use Japanese saws because they have disposable blades. I don't want to spend the time learning how to sharpen saws (there's enough maintenance to do already) so the Japanese saws fit the bill for me. If there were western saws that had disposable blades I'd use those.

I can cut okay on the pull stroke, but I don't like the fact that the pull stroke drops sawdust on the line. I have to keep blowing the sawdust away so I can see the line. So it's pull-puff, pull-puff, etc.

Mike

[Pam Niedermayer]

There's a good description of how Japanese tool steel is made and used in the production of a samurai sword from an episode of Nova on the PBS website (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/samurai/swor-nf.html). The same process is used for making other Japanese woodworking tools. If you get a chance to see this episode, it's highly worthwhile....

Wilbur, that was a great show, but they were making tamahagane steel, which has almost nothing to do with tools made today (I don't know about kitchen knives, so...). While you can rarely buy a tool made with tamahagane, they're very expensive (say $20,000 for a Yataiki saw vs $500).

However, I did attend a Yataiki seminar in San Francisco hosted by Kayoko, Misugi Designs. He and helpers (Dave Burnard, Mark Grable, John Burt) walked us through making hammer heads and also showed us how he forged steel. First step was cutting pine charcoal to the right size for the forge, then we rebuilt the forge in brick when the first temporary one was just a bit too temporary, then saw all the anvils and other tools in action. I think using pine charcoal makes a difference. I think that the characteristics of a fuigo type forge makes a difference. I think the skill of the blacksmith makes a difference. And these differences are part of what's special about hand made Japanese edge tools.

Pam

[Mike Henderson]

There's a good description of how Japanese tool steel is made and used in the production of a samurai sword from an episode of Nova on the PBS website (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/samurai/swor-nf.html). The same process is used for making other Japanese woodworking tools. If you get a chance to see this episode, it's highly worthwhile.

But basically, a bunch of iron-bearing sand and charcoal are shoveled into a furnace and bruned together for three days. Unlike western steel making techniques, this steel never reaches the molten point, which means that the carbon content in the chunks of steel obtained from this process varies. Lower carbon steel tends to be durable, but not hard, while the higher carbon steel tends to be very hard, but brittle. The low and high carbon steel are sorted and ultimately laminated together to make the sword (or chisel, or plane blade) by forging.

The main differences I see between this process of making steel and what Harry Strasil described in the other thread is that there is no melting process and a higher reliance on forging.
Actually, western iron was made that way prior to the invention of the blast furnace. The furnace was called a bloomery and the lump of iron was called a bloom. The ore was chemically reduced by the carbon monoxide from the charcoal (note: a bloomery can only run on charcoal because coal (or coke) contains too much sulfur). The bloom never melted so the iron and slag were intermixed, making the iron in a bloom essentially unusable.

The bloom was removed from the furnace and taken to another work station where the bloom was repeateadly heated and hammered to drive out the slag within the bloom. The heating process burned out essentially all the remaining carbon so the result was wrought iron (in fact wrought iron gets its name from this process of hammering - the iron was wrought (worked)).

Bloomery iron was not great - it contained some residual slag, and the chemical composition depended on the ore used (the chemical composition of the ore). The iron makers generally could not produce batches of iron which were consistent batch-to-batch but iron of any kind was a valuable commodity.

In the west, bloomeries were used to make iron from the beginning of the Iron Age to the 15th Century, when the blast furnace was invented.

You can learn more by searching on Wikipedia for "bloomery" or "History of ferrous metallurgy".

Mike

[China developed the blast furnace much earlier but it never made it to the West - the blast furnace was re-invented in the west - centuries later.]

[Mark Singer]

If you are into making furniture and not collecting tools the differences are small. I have very fine Japanese chisels many give to me as gifts, lesser quality Japanese chisels , LN chisels , older Stanleys and other makers. What is most important is using the tools corectly and sharpening to a reasonable degree. Beyond that it is like guys listening to stereos, some people hear all kinds of things and play with the amps etc and really don't listen to the music. Its true that fine equipment produces better sound. Often to get a slight improvement the expense is outrageous!
I can pick up any of hem and make a nice drawer and that is what is really important in the end to me.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Mark, I'm an egalitarian who thinks that no country has/had a monopoly on quality tool making, good tools are found everywhere, especially among old tools. However, if you want to buy new quality you need to be a bit more discriminating.

Pam

[Jim Koepke]

I use Japanese saws because they have disposable blades. I don't want to spend the time learning how to sharpen saws (there's enough maintenance to do already) so the Japanese saws fit the bill for me. If there were western saws that had disposable blades I'd use those.

I can cut okay on the pull stroke, but I don't like the fact that the pull stroke drops sawdust on the line. I have to keep blowing the sawdust away so I can see the line. So it's pull-puff, pull-puff, etc.

The western saws will also drop saw dust on the line.

I can buy an old western saw for a lot less than I can buy one of those "disposable" blades. Once you have done it a few times, it does not take long to sharpen a saw.

I have problems ripping much more than 6 inches or so with my Japanese saws. My western rip saw, even with my inexperience at sharpening and knowing I botched it does better on long boards. I am able to track the line much better. It may be because the blade is stiffer.


Cross cutting, dovetails and miter work have mostly been done with Japanese saws. They do a good job. Sometimes though the saws seem to want to leave the line. My western back saw sharpened to a rip cut tracks better and I have been tending toward using it on dovetails and such lately.

I need to sharpen a western cross cut saw and cut some tenon shoulders to make my final choice. One thing I do like though is when I am just doing a rough cut, one of the pull saws can really slice a 2X4 fast.

As far as chisels go, find the ones you enjoy using, then you will use them more.

jim

"I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have."
- Thomas Jefferson

[Robert Rozaieski]

The western saws will also drop saw dust on the line.

They don't have to if you lift the saw slightly on the back stroke. The saw stroke should be more in an eliptical path than in a straight back and fourth motion. It's sweet to watch it happen when you get the eliptical stroke right. The sawdust falls away from the line to either side and the line stays visible without having to blow away the dust. If I slow down and work at it concentrating on the technique I can get it to work. But if I rush through the cut and don't think about the motion, I end up just using the back and fourth stroke and covering my scribe line in dust. I need to develop better muscle memory for this type of saw stroke.

[Wilbur Pan]

When using a Japanese saw, I've learned to not look at the spot where the saw is actually cutting. What I do is to focus on the spot where the cut ultimately will end, and direct the saw to that point. Since the saw is kept straight by tension because it cuts on the pull stroke, it will track to the line of the cut. This way, I only am annoyed by the dust on the line at the end of the cut.

The other way to deal with this is orient the board so that the cut is made in a vertical fashion, which is easy to do with a pull saw.

Finally, one of the disadvantages of being a Japanese saw user in the U.S. is that the vast majority of Japanese saws have 240mm blades. For long rip cuts, a longer blade will give you better results, partly due to the increased length of the blade, and partly due to having coarser teeth.

There seems to be an expectation, probably because the vast majority of Japanese saws available here have 240mm blades, that a 240mm ryoba should be able to do all kinds of cuts. On the other hand, few people would think of using a 12" rip tenon saw to make a long rip cut in a board. It can be done, but it won't be the most fun thing in the world.

Unfortunately, it's not the easiest thing to find a large Japanese saw outside of mail order, although I noticed that Woodcraft has a 300mm ryoba the last time I was there.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...I'd like to hear from more people who actually own some good Japanese tools, or who are tried and true Japanese tools users..."

I own and use a number of Japanese hand tools. Many planes, chisels and saws, all made by "artisan" blacksmiths of some status as "traditional" makers and many of which cost more than I care to admit spending. I have made many of the "dais" or plane bodies for the plane blades and all of the handles for the saws, all leather wrapped with much care. I enjoy using these tools and feel a connection with the tradition and history of their making. I also have a number of fine (expensive) natural water stones and regularly "enjoy" putting a razor edge on my chisels and planes with them.

But....how to answer the question of how much better of a woodworker I am using these fine tools? Certainly, my enjoyment of woodworking is greatly enhanced. But are my mortices "better" than those cut with top quality "western style" chisels? Or those ploughed out with a router? Are my tenons any "better" than if I had cut them with a fine, brass backed, rosewood handled "western style" back saw? Or milled them on a table saw? I'm thinking that they are not.

I believe that this is just like many other things in life. Driving may be much more enjoyable when you have a fine car to drive but you don't get where you are going any faster. You have to balance what it's worth to you as an individual and what you are willing to "make do" with. I have friends who pride themselves in keeping an old battered truck on the road rather than send it to the car crusher and buy a new one. And others who trade in their cars as soon as it loses that "new car smell". What works for you?

YM

[Pam Niedermayer]

...But....how to answer the question of how much better of a woodworker I am using these fine tools? Certainly, my enjoyment of woodworking is greatly enhanced. But are my mortices "better" than those cut with top quality "western style" chisels? Or those ploughed out with a router? Are my tenons any "better" than if I had cut them with a fine, brass backed, rosewood handled "western style" back saw? Or milled them on a table saw? I'm thinking that they are not.

I believe that this is just like many other things in life. Driving may be much more enjoyable when you have a fine car to drive but you don't get where you are going any faster. You have to balance what it's worth to you as an individual and what you are willing to "make do" with. I have friends who pride themselves in keeping an old battered truck on the road rather than send it to the car crusher and buy a new one. And others who trade in their cars as soon as it loses that "new car smell". What works for you?

Yes, I'd have to agree with this; but I'd also like to add that often using a good tool allows me to avoid making mistakes and/or allows me to recover gracefully when I make a mistake. Very similar to the argument about sports cars vs big sedans (good sports cars are smaller and more vulnerable when hit, but they also allow you to avoid accidents more easily, assuming, of course, that you're a capable driver).

Pam

[Dan Racette]

"...I'd like to hear from more people who actually own some good Japanese tools, or who are tried and true Japanese tools users..."

I own and use a number of Japanese hand tools. Many planes, chisels and saws, all made by "artisan" blacksmiths of some status as "traditional" makers and many of which cost more than I care to admit spending. I have made many of the "dais" or plane bodies for the plane blades and all of the handles for the saws, all leather wrapped with much care. I enjoy using these tools and feel a connection with the tradition and history of their making. I also have a number of fine (expensive) natural water stones and regularly "enjoy" putting a razor edge on my chisels and planes with them.

But....how to answer the question of how much better of a woodworker I am using these fine tools? Certainly, my enjoyment of woodworking is greatly enhanced. But are my mortices "better" than those cut with top quality "western style" chisels? Or those ploughed out with a router? Are my tenons any "better" than if I had cut them with a fine, brass backed, rosewood handled "western style" back saw? Or milled them on a table saw? I'm thinking that they are not.

I believe that this is just like many other things in life. Driving may be much more enjoyable when you have a fine car to drive but you don't get where you are going any faster. You have to balance what it's worth to you as an individual and what you are willing to "make do" with. I have friends who pride themselves in keeping an old battered truck on the road rather than send it to the car crusher and buy a new one. And others who trade in their cars as soon as it loses that "new car smell". What works for you?

YM

I always feel that tools don't make a difference if you can't hit the mark!

I am really starting this thread for a couple of reasons. I want to hear more about tools that are made in the traditional methods and get some people here to be exposed to the difference between the quality of those tools and the tools that are generally available on the market and labelled as "Japanese" and how well they work.

I don't think that anyone here could make enough statements here to get someone to spend the $$ on a hand-crafted chisel and be a west to east convert. However, it might get someone to understand that they might want to be driven to the opportunity to TRY some of these tools, when the opportunity arises, and understand that there really is quite a difference.

My personal frustrations started in my ventures in trying to pare to the line, no more than that! :)

Glad to hear from everyone.

Thanks so much for the friendly posts.

Dan

[Dan Racette]

When using a Japanese saw, I've learned to not look at the spot where the saw is actually cutting. What I do is to focus on the spot where the cut ultimately will end, and direct the saw to that point. Since the saw is kept straight by tension because it cuts on the pull stroke, it will track to the line of the cut. This way, I only am annoyed by the dust on the line at the end of the cut.

The other way to deal with this is orient the board so that the cut is made in a vertical fashion, which is easy to do with a pull saw.

Finally, one of the disadvantages of being a Japanese saw user in the U.S. is that the vast majority of Japanese saws have 240mm blades. For long rip cuts, a longer blade will give you better results, partly due to the increased length of the blade, and partly due to having coarser teeth.

There seems to be an expectation, probably because the vast majority of Japanese saws available here have 240mm blades, that a 240mm ryoba should be able to do all kinds of cuts. On the other hand, few people would think of using a 12" rip tenon saw to make a long rip cut in a board. It can be done, but it won't be the most fun thing in the world.

Unfortunately, it's not the easiest thing to find a large Japanese saw outside of mail order, although I noticed that Woodcraft has a 300mm ryoba the last time I was there.

Interesting way to describe the process.

[David DeCristoforo]

"I want to hear more about tools that are made in the traditional methods and...the difference between the quality of those tools and the tools that are generally available on the market..."

Well there are certainly plenty of cheap Japanese tools out there. I don't think buying them is any better than buying any other cheap (poor quality) tools and it most certainly makes no sense to buy them just so you can say you use Japanese tools.

Remember this though...many "handmade" Japanese tools are produced by makers whose tools are as good as those who have a more established name and therefore, can command a higher price for their tools. So you don't have to spend a fortune to buy decent tools. There are also a lot of very decent quality "mass produced" tools that sell for much less than their hand forged counterparts. I would suggest that you would spend the extra money for tools hand forged by a respected blacksmith for the same reason that people would buy a handmade piece of furniture from an artisan maker instead of the cheaper factory made piece.

There is no doubt that the finest, hand forged tools are a joy to use. But in a traditional Japanese working environment, these tools would never be owned by anyone but a master craftsman. Less skilled workers could buy them of course but their sense of propriety would forbid it. In his book "Japanese Woodworking Tools: Their Tradition, Spirit and Use", Toshio Odate tells of a time when his master confiscated a fine plane he had bought because he was not considered to yet be worthy of it.

One of the best resources for advice and information on good quality, reasonably priced Japanese hand tools is Hida Tool in Berekely, CA. They have a web site at
http://www.hidatool.com/
Another very interesting site is
http://www.daikudojo.org/index.html

YM

[Pedro Reyes]

OK, I don't want to debate, I have a pragmatic and specific question for the heavy Japanese tool users.

I got some Matsumura white steel chisels, allegedly made by hand. (is this true?)

I like them so far, specially for cleaning up joinery.

I know these are not the top of the line chisels since they are very reasonably priced. But are they crap? are they too far from what you would consider a good chisel? If you had to rank them, would they be too low?

Please don't hold back, give it to me straight, I won't be offended, I didn't make them ;) and I didn't spend a fortune on the few I have. I use them for lighter type work and they work fine so even if they are crap I am able to use them and will keep them. I just want to get an idea of "how much better" it could be according to the Japanese tool users.

peace

/p

[David DeCristoforo]

Matsumura chisels are not "crap". Nor are they "the best". At around $40.00 each, one would expect "decent quality" tools...no? And there are many, I am sure, who would consider this to be somewhat above the "very reasonably priced" category. Not in the range of several thousand dollars for a set of ten which is what you could pay but still quite a bit more than the Marples "Blue Chip" at around $12-20 each and about the same as Sorbys (considered by many to be "excellent"). So don't stay up at night worrying about it....

YM

[Dave Burnard]

I got some Matsumura white steel chisels, allegedly made by hand. (is this true?)


For most peoples definition of "hand made", indeed they are. There's no CNC machines or stamps or presses etc. There are stationary grinders and power hammers involved - but those types of machines are useless without a highly skilled operator.

There's a smith who makes the chisel, starting with individual forge welds of a piece of steel onto the end of an iron/mild steel bar. Since the steel wraps the iron, it may take an extra heat to do the sides. Both hand and power hammers are used to do the rough forging of the taper of the chisel and side bevels. In a separate step a power hammer with specially shaped dies is used to draw out the neck and form the tang of the chisel. Afterwards the chisel blank is cleaned up on a grinder, all done by eye, and the hollows are ground in by eye (before or after hardening).

Heat treatment may be done with a charcoal or gas forge or it may be done with molten salt or lead baths - depending on the smith.

One person can do it all for small production, but for larger shops there will likely be different people working on different steps.

Before JapanWoodworker came along, Matsumura was probably a one or two person shop, I suspect he may have more help these days, but the production methods will be the same.

[Pedro Reyes]

Dave, Yoshikuni,

Thanks for your replies.

Yoshikumi,

When I said reasonably priced, it was in relation to some triple digit chisels out there. Also, never lost any sleep ;) they perform very well for what I use them and I like them a lot. Thanks again.

/p

[Mark Singer]

"...I'd like to hear from more people who actually own some good Japanese tools, or who are tried and true Japanese tools users..."

I own and use a number of Japanese hand tools. Many planes, chisels and saws, all made by "artisan" blacksmiths of some status as "traditional" makers and many of which cost more than I care to admit spending. I have made many of the "dais" or plane bodies for the plane blades and all of the handles for the saws, all leather wrapped with much care. I enjoy using these tools and feel a connection with the tradition and history of their making. I also have a number of fine (expensive) natural water stones and regularly "enjoy" putting a razor edge on my chisels and planes with them.

But....how to answer the question of how much better of a woodworker I am using these fine tools? Certainly, my enjoyment of woodworking is greatly enhanced. But are my mortices "better" than those cut with top quality "western style" chisels? Or those ploughed out with a router? Are my tenons any "better" than if I had cut them with a fine, brass backed, rosewood handled "western style" back saw? Or milled them on a table saw? I'm thinking that they are not.

I believe that this is just like many other things in life. Driving may be much more enjoyable when you have a fine car to drive but you don't get where you are going any faster. You have to balance what it's worth to you as an individual and what you are willing to "make do" with. I have friends who pride themselves in keeping an old battered truck on the road rather than send it to the car crusher and buy a new one. And others who trade in their cars as soon as it loses that "new car smell". What works for you?

YM


This is an excellent response! You know the difference between good workmanship and fine tools and the two are often related.

[Dave Burnard]

On todays episode of "How It's Made" they paid a visit to a western chisel factory, not sure which one but they were making chisels labeled as Buck Bros. with yellow plastic handles. Drop forged into a mold and punched to shape so about half the raw material ends up in the recycling bin. Honed (rough ground) to razor sharpness too.

Interestingly they were tempered at 700F! Granted the show may have made a mistake but they got the hardening temperature right at 1400F. And granted those are chisels aimed at the DIY market. Still, 700F is past the usual tempering color chart, and on a carbon steel is about where you might temper a hammer (RC 52-54). They won't take or hold an edge, but they'll open a paint can nicely.

I suppose if they tempered them at something like 400F their customers would complain about them chipping and/or working only in softwoods. ;)

[Joel Moskowitz]

Up until WW2 English and Western chisels were made pretty much the way they make them in Japan - although without the lamination since the late 19th century. That is humans forged and ground each chisel. Unlike Japan however there was tremendous job specialization in the factories.
After WW2 drop forging and machine grinding became common for most styles of chisels although not all.

Carving tools for all the except the very large makers are hand forged and hand ground. on bench chisels some companies do either depending on the batch size.

In the US chisels have been drop forged since the Civil War and the main reason for the existence of socket chisels in the US is that if you have a press big enough they are easier to make by machine and socketed handles don't require the custom fitting of a tanged handle.

If you go back to the early 19th century chisels in the west were made identically to the chisels in Japan but with more specialization.

The major problem with modern machine ground chisels is simply that when you harden a few hundred at a time it's tricky to get consistency and the harder they are the more they warp in hardening soyou save money by going softer. Also in the US companies are nervous about what happens when chisels are used for opening paint cans.