Chisels and planes [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Pedro Reyes

02-19-2008, 11:14 AM

Chuck,

I don't own any bench planes from Lee Valley, but I do own an "apron plane" (small block) as well as two of their sholder planes. They are top of the line, their design and ergonomics are unmatched. I would infer that their bench planes are also high quality, but then again, no experience.

Lie Nielsen also makes top of the line planes, I do have their 4-1/2 and it is a beautiful tool to use.

The planes I am most attached to tho, came from Ebay, old used Stanleys that I reconditioned. It is not a difficult process and it is quite fun. I think rehabilitating an old tool is a great way to learn what makes a tool a quality tool and helps you understand how to tweak them to your needs.

After I am done with the Ebay finds, I can't say that they perform better than the Lie Nielsens or Veritas, but I can't say the opposite either, they all work great. What I can say is that it cost but a fraction of the price of the new planes.

You have to be careful because some Stanleys are crap (newer, too beat up, etc.). But it is not hard to find good users out there.

Some people think that rehabilitating a Stanley takes hours and hours of lapping and filing and make it seem like a complete PITA, it is not. The whole process can be done in a couple of hours and it is quite rewarding.

/p

Charles Wilson

02-19-2008, 11:20 AM

Mike Henderson

02-19-2008, 12:35 PM

Being naive,

Can someone help me out as to what to look for on Ebay? I am absolutely CLUELESS about hand tools.

If it violates SMC rules, feel free to PM me with stuff that looks pretty good or what to look for.

Thanks,
Chuck
On chisels, Bob Smalser had a post where he gave his opinion of the best brands of older chisels. Take a look at his posts and see if you can find the one where he talks about that.

Two brands I remember were Witherby and Swan. You can do a search on eBay with "(witherby,swan) (chisel,chisels)". Beyond that, you need to select what you want, and check out the seller.

Mike

Michael Faurot

02-19-2008, 12:39 PM

I am continuing getting into woodworking and am looking for some reasonably priced chisels and planes.
...
I don't like buying junk but at the same time I can't spend a fortune. Can anyone recommend reasonably price versions on the above? Flea market and used are kind of out of the question.

Chisels - up to about 1"
You can get a decent set of Irwin/Marples (http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100089652) chisels from Home Depot for about $32. These are stocked in the local stores, so you can look them over and decide if they're what you want, before buying.

Planes - Block and #4 or #5
Some questions to ask yourself and contemplate, you don't need to reply here:

1) What's more important to you time or money?

2) What are your expectations for these tools when you get them?

3) Are you easily frustrated or are you more stubborn when you run into problems with tools?

If you've got the money and you want to see results quickly--buy Lie-Nielsen or Lee Valley/Veritas and just be done with it. When your packages arrive you can pretty much start working with the tools out of box. The only thing you might want to do to them is hone the blades a bit.

If you don't have the money, but you're willing to put in some time, look for some used Stanley planes. Be prepared for some trial-and-error while you learn to both fettle and use them.

Another option is to see if there's any members here that can supply you with some decent planes that have all ready been fettled and are ready to go.

Finally, if you've got a local woodworking group in your area find the hand tool guy and talk to him. No doubt he'll tell you more than you ever wanted to know and will probably be more than happy to do so.

James Carmichael

02-19-2008, 1:03 PM

Look on the "bay" for set of Stanley # 750 chisels. I would buy 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, and 3/4."
Expect to pay about 20 bucks for a nice example. These are quality chisels. The new Lie Nielsen chisels are patterned after them.
There are many other brands like Whitby, Swan etc, cannot go wrong with any of them. You should be able to put together a set for around 60 bucks. They hold an edge well, are well balanced, and still available.

Hmmm, with all due respect, I don't think Ebay is the place for Charles to look for a starter chisel set. #1, the 750s are popular with collectors and expensive (overpriced, IMO), #2 it's time consuming and frustrating, #3 it's for experts as 750s and other good vintage chisels are often unmarked, and unethical sellers will try to represent any socket chisel as a Stanley 750.

I think you'd be best served with a set of 4 Marples (aka Irwin) Blue Chips, 1/4" - 1". Lowes used to sell this set for $20 (maybe still do, under Irwin name??) If not, Amazon, Woodcraft, Rockler, lots of places still have them. If you want to tackle dovetails, I'd add a 1/8" to that set. If they still carry them, the Narex set from Lee Valley looks good, and quite reasonable.

Good planes are much harder to aquire since you really have only two options: Vintage Stanley (and others), or modern, premium (and much more expensive) makes such as Veritas, LN, Clifton, plus smaller infill and wooden plane makers. There is almost nothing in between. There are a myriad of pros/cons to either option, and I don't want to turn this thread into another multipage debate on that topic, but IMO, it boils down to a time vs money issue. You can buy old planes for less money, the tradeoff is time spent researching (plane makes and types), locating and evaluating vintage planes, then, after the purchase, tuning, fettling, and possibly restoring. This can be a fun exercise, in and of itself, plus, at the end, you have a nice, useful tool. New, premium planes are much more expensive ($200 and up for Bailey-style bench planes, much more for infills), but these are often improved designs and pretty much ready to go right out of the box.

A 3rd option is to make your own, but I don't think that's great for a beginner (I'm sure some will disagree, but it's my opinion).

Sam Yerardi

02-19-2008, 1:10 PM

Just wanted to add - don't discount flea markets, etc. I've found very good tools at amazing prices. I have two very old Stanley rosewood squares that I picked up for $3 a piece. I use both daily. I understand wanting to follow the old adage to buy the best tools you can afford, but I like to keep in mind, when that saying was created (and I do agree with it) tool restoration was an unheard-of phrase or concept. Just like restoring a vintage or antique vehicle, restoring tools can sometimes be the best money you will ever spend. An old Stanley #5 that I restored and use every day, while not being as flashy or top-notch as maybe a Lie-Nielsen or Norton, is special to me because I brought it back to life.

Rob Luter

02-19-2008, 1:12 PM

Chuck,

I was in your shoes a while back. When I first started out, Santa brought be a set of the Irwin/Marples chisels that seem to wind up being most everyone's first set. They have plastic handles and the backs need a good lapping to remove the machining marks, but they hold a decent edge and have a low price. I'm ready to step up to something better sometime in the next year, but these have been very serviceable.

The only new plane I own is a Veritas Low Angle Jack. I was very impressed with the quality and performance. I would expect the same of their other planes. I also own a number of older Stanleys (#3, #4, #5, #5C, #7, #60 1/2, #9 1/2) that I've purchased at very low cost and "tuned up" myself. You can usually manage to trip over a few #4 and #5 at any flea market or antique mall. I think the most I've paid was $40.00 and that was for the #7 Joiner in darned good shape. Getting them "dialed in" was a pretty simple affair. I bought new Hock blades for the #3 and #4 that actually cost more than I paid for the plane, but wow what a difference in performance. There are also members here (Clint Jones for one) who offer pre-tuned versions of older Stanleys for sale periodically.

As much fun as I've had though, I could make a case for buying a Veritas Low Angle Block Plane, the Bevel Up Smoother, and the Bevel Up Jack and calling it a day. You'll be able to do pretty much anything you want with these three. All have interchangable blades available with alternate cutting angles for versatility. All will work exceptionally well right out of the box.

JayStPeter

02-19-2008, 1:49 PM

Assuming you have no chisels or planes, I'd start with the Irwin/marples chisels. They are darn good for the $ and you can just pick up a set at the borg. Even if you upgrade later, they are good to have around for rough work.
Then get a LA block (either LV or LN). Now learn to sharpen and get everything you need for that and make the block plane work. Keep in mind you'll want to deal with ~2.5" wide blades in the future, so plan your sharpening accordingly. Don't underestimate the importance and cost of getting setup to sharpen well.
If you're anything like me, that'll take you into next year :cool:.
Oh yeah, get a DVD or two about using planes. First, get one wiith contents of setting them up and use (Charlesworth is one, but there are others) and I also recomend the Chris Schwarz video Coarse, Medium, Fine after that. That will lead you to what type of plane(s) you would like to get next. Really, the block plane is pretty general use. What comes next depends on what you want to do with them.

Thomas Knighton

02-19-2008, 1:54 PM

I'm a newbie myself. Money is always a bit tight, since my wife has these annoying habits of wanting electricity and a roof over her head...you know, the luxuries ;)

I bought used Stanley planes off of eBay. Most were actually in pretty good shape and only needed a cleaning and sharpening at most (I sharpened all of them, FWIW). The most I paid was for a $30 60 1/2 type that I just really, really wanted due to collector value (to myself only probably).

For chisels, a suggestion was made to look at Grizzly's Japanese chisels. I bought 1/4", 1/2", 3/4" and 1" to start with. They took and edge pretty well, required very little lapping on the back, and seem to hold an edge fairly well (I've been fairly rough on them). For the price, their quality seems pretty hard to beat.

For a lower cost option, Lee Valley has a line of bench chisels put out by Narex that seem to be a pretty good value as well. If you don't want to go with the Grizzly chisels, the Narex's look to be pretty solid options that can last you a long, long while. I haven't handled them myself, however, but folks who have them seem satisfied with them.

Best of luck!

Tom

Danny Thompson

02-19-2008, 2:13 PM

Mike Steinhilper

02-19-2008, 2:23 PM

I was told by someone on this message board that it's a good idea to pick one good chisel to start. I got a 12mm Two Cherries because it's a pretty useful size -- about 1/2". I used it for mortises (since got a mortise chisel) and dovetails. It is outstanding in my opinion. I will get another size when I need it. I'm sure the marples are decent, but there will probably be at least two of them that you won't use. My advice is one good chisel, a good mallet, and on the planes... I actually did get a Stanley No. 5 off ebay. I paid $22 for it, cleaned it up, sharpened the iron, and it's been great.

John Powers

02-19-2008, 3:21 PM

I have received my last pitted bent chisle from Ebay. Loads of junk and one long, well marked swan. Had it to do over again I'd buy those yellow handled ones from Lee valley and avoid the aggrivation. I just don't want to rehab and turn handles but thats me. I have a very clean well Japanned WWII era No 4 if you want it. Looks like the guy bought it put it away. I don't need it, just had to rescue it from a garage sale in hopes that someone could use it. I know there are exceptions but to me there's nothing cheap on Ebay anymore in my opinion except junk.

Randal Stevenson

02-19-2008, 4:34 PM

I have a fairly strong opinion that one or two used stanley planes is not the way to go if you are new and don't have expert guidance present (as opposed to online). 2 reasons: 1) it could end up costing you as much as a nice new Veritas, 2) it could take time and energy away from your actually work. See this post for a variety of opinions on the matter: Don’t do it! Why newbies should NOT start with old planes (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=70466)

I also strongly believe one high quality chisel is better than a set of lower quality ones.

But, you didn't really ask for either of those opinions, so I'll reply directly to your inquiry as follows:

For an inexpensive set, try the Marples chisels.

For a good all-around user plane, try a Veritas Low-angle Jack ($209).

His bad experience, is a reason you might consider getting your first planes, already cleaned and tuned by someone like Clint Jones. They are done and reasonable.

I have some Marples chisels, MOST of which were bought before they were Irwin. Now that Irwin has bought them, I still ocassionally see the old Sheffield steel on ones at Woodcraft, verse the Home Depot Blue Chip ones with the Chrome Vanadium made in China blades (told they don't hold the edge as well, no experience with them).
I still need 1/8" chisel and am considering the Two Cherries ones, which Holbren sells. Those or Hirsch are ones that have been recommended to me otherwise.

Clint Jones

02-19-2008, 4:56 PM

#1, the 750s are popular with collectors and expensive (overpriced, IMO),

It isnt because of collectors it is because of users. The 750's used to run about $10-$15, when LN modled their butt chisels users drove the price up. Alot of woodworkers assume that collectors drive prices up which is far from the truth.

dan grant

02-19-2008, 6:01 PM

i have a variety of planes and chisels BC, LV, LN, stanley, footprint, the LV veritas line is probably the best bang for the buck, no expert my own humble opinion but i never really enjoyed hand tools untill i bought decent ones which usually meant new

John Dykes

02-19-2008, 6:10 PM

(Where is Marcus!!)

Charles -

In your original post you state "Flea market and used are kind of out of the question." However, further down you inquire about Ebay...

You can't go wrong with Lee Valley or the LNs. As a matter of fact (and in a story I've related more than once...), a Lie-Nielsen #4 was my first plane - unfortunately.

Point being, my first plane cost me $250 (+ tax, shipping)! :eek:

To be honest, I kinda think spending that much money on a tool I didn't understand or know how to operate or maintain was a mistake... I was a beginner - I was, as you put it, "absolutely CLUELESS about hand tools." That wonderful tool sat in its box for years - literally.

Had I to do it over, I would recommend the following:
- Search for "stanley plane" on ebay.
- Examine the pictures. As a beginner "go \ no-go" test, look for two things:
1) The lever cap has a "keyhole shape" vs "a kidney shape."
2) There are patent dates on the body of the plane.
Either of these will be a good start.
- Examine the pictures even MORE closely - chips, breaks, welds, rust pitting. The bottom of the plane - and around the opening in the bottom is where the condition really matters.
- When you have 10 or 15 auctions that are interesting to you, let the group here know... Don't post the link, just reference the auction number and description (per SawMill Rules).
- I'd bet there'd be several here that would be happy to give you feedback on your list. You (and many others I'd bet) would learn a ton from the experience....
- Email the seller to verify the presence of pitting, broken parts, cracks, welds, etc, etc.
- Place a bid...

At the end of that process, with guidance, I'd bet you'd have a nice Stanley plane for you to take apart, clean up, put together, sharpen - and use - for no more than $40 - $50 (including derusting and cleaning supplies).

Once you get one in the door. Post to the group, take some pictures, etc. Walk through it - step by step... Heck, start and maintain a master thread here for yourself. "Charles's 1st Epic Plane Restoration Thread." Point being, if you don't have over $1000 for a starter set of three planes (#5, #7, #4 - ala Chris Schwartz Coarse, Medium, Fine) - You'll have to learn to restore sooner or later! Why wait?! And good for you, there is a great deal of satisfaction in taking a classic Stanley plane from a bit rusty to near perfection... So it takes a few hours... I'm a hobbist who enjoys using his tools - it's part of it.

More importantly...

You admit you are complete newbie to hand tools.... You ask about planes and chisels... However, you don't ask about sharpening. Buying LN, LV, Hotley, Stanley, 2 Cherries, blah - blah - none of that really matters. It takes very little skill to buy a good tool. It does take some skill (and practice) to learn how to sharpen your new, or old, planes and chisels. Focus on learning to sharpen - become passionate about having a sharp tool... Brand name is secondary.

Looking forward to see how you move forward...

Regards,

jbd

Jim Koepke

02-19-2008, 7:45 PM

His bad experience, is a reason you might consider getting your first planes, already cleaned and tuned by someone like Clint Jones. They are done and reasonable.

I agree with this.

The first thing you need to learn is how to sharpen your cutting tools.
This is the step that will make most of the "junk" planes work.

I have bought many a fine user plane and quite a few chisels off of that auction site. Some of the planes were bought because they were cheap and good sources of some spare parts. A few of those turned out to be bad photos and dirt and very nice planes.

I also got a great No. 5 at an estate sale for $10.
Just recently found some great planes at antique shops. Two of them are soaking right now. This may be more than someone starting should do, but I have been sliding down the slope for a while now. Just imagine, a year ago I was not very good at sharpening. I did not have a mentor, most of what I learned came from the internet.

If you are going to buy from that auction site, do be sure to ask the seller any questions. If they do not answer, I would be hesitant to bid, unless the starting bid is low and that is all I would bid. There is almost always another of whatever you are looking for coming along. I also like the suggestion that you ask folks here what their thoughts are before you bid.

You may also want to look at the type study at rexmill.com to see what the different feature changes are over the years. My favorite Stanley planes come from the 1890s to before the 1920s. Though I have bought planes outside of this range.

Jim

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
- Mark Twain

Mike Steinhilper

02-19-2008, 8:29 PM

One thing I feel like I need to mention only because I was a 'victim'. This is not meant to be a slam of anyone on this board, but it's easy to get carried away with this hobby. What I mean is, I spent the first couple of years building jigs, sharpening tools, buying tools, books, videos, rearranging my shop, drawing plans; and built approximately ONE project. My point is don't over think it. Get a chisel, get a plane, start playing around, and pretty soon you'll figure out what you need. e.g. I can't imagine what the difference b/w a kidney shaped versus a keyhole shaped lever cap... sorry John;)
Unless you are made of money, then just get everything all at once and be done with it!

Jim Koepke

02-19-2008, 10:17 PM

I can't imagine what the difference b/w a kidney shaped versus a keyhole shaped lever cap... sorry John

This is one way to determine the age of a Stanley plane. The straight slot on the lever cap changed to a "kidney" shape in 1933. Just before this there was also a ring placed in the casting around the front knob.

Many feel it was during these years that the price cutting engineers, competition from power tools and the great depression started to take their toll on the quality of Stanley's offerings.

Jim

Quality is never an accident. It is always the result of intelligent
effort. - John Ruskin

James Owen

02-20-2008, 1:03 AM

Greetings,

I am continuing getting into woodworking and am looking for some reasonably priced chisels and planes.

From what I read for starters:

Chisels - up to about 1"

Planes - Block and #4 or #5

I don't like buying junk but at the same time I can't spend a fortune. Can anyone recommend reasonably price versions on the above? Flea market and used are kind of out of the question.

Thanks,
Chuck

Charles,

Before you spend any of your hard earned dinero, you need to educate yourself on tools. Like the saying goes in the coin collecting world: read the book, THEN buy the coin....

Here are a couple of books that will help you out with what to look for in (vintage) planes, chisels, etc., as well as information on tuning and using them effectively once you've bought them:

Hand Tools: Their Ways & Workings (Aldren Watson)

Restoring, Tuning, & Using Classic Woodworking Tools (Michael Dunbar)

Choosing & Using Hand Tools (Andy Rae)

The Woodworker's Guide to Hand Tools (Peter Korn)

Hand Tool Essentials (Editors of Popular Woodworking)

Traditional Woodworking Handtools (Graham Blackburn)

Planecraft (C.W. Hampton & E. Clifford)

The above-listed books will give you a pretty good idea of what to look for in a quality tool, what to avoid, and how to tune your (vintage) tools to work better.

The unfortunate reality is that you can have good quality or you can have inexpensive, but (probably) not both at the same time (for new tools). If you want a good quality new hand plane, for example, your choices are pretty simple: Lie-Nielsen, Veritas, Clifton, or one from one of the (generally rather expensive) boutique plane makers such as Konrad Sauer, Karl Holtey, etc. (Don't get me wrong, these are EXCELLENT tools, but the cost of that excellence tends to lighten your wallet significantly....)

Another choice is a vintage tool. Pre-WW II Stanley (Sargent, Millers Falls, etc) hand plane are of good to excellent quality, but will likely require some tuning. The above listed books will help you with that, or you could take a class at your local community college, Woodcraft store, etc. If you don't want to tune a tool, then buying one from a reputable dealer -- such as SMC's own Clint Jones, Jon Zimmers in Portland, OR, etc -- will get you a tool pretty much ready to go upon receipt.

A little food for thought: It is my opinion that, particularly for hand planes, one should buy a high-quality hand plane (such as a Lie-Nielsen), so that you have a bench mark of what a "good" plane and what "good" plane performance is. That helps you set the end point in getting your vintage tools tuned.

One last thought: buy tools as you need them for a project. Over a relatively short period of time, you'll amass a rather impressive tool set.

Good luck, and have fun!!

Dan Barr

02-20-2008, 2:03 AM

Very good advice indeed.

i copied that list of books immediately. By the way James, which of those books is he most comprehensive on hand tools? they all look good, but if i bought just one, which would it be?

I started with Flea market stanleys for my planes and irwin marples for my chisels. I still use them all, just not as much.

i bought a few lie-nielsen planes. Now, i use those like there is no tomorrow. excellent tools!

if you could only buy one Lie-nielsen plane, i would buy the 60 1/2R: Rabbet block plane. that thing is about as useful as the ruler itself!

as for chisels: if i were to do it on a budget, i would only buy the lie-nielsen 1/4" and 1/2" mortise chisels ($60.00 ea.) and the same size dovetail chisels ($50.00 ea.). i wouldnt bother with bench chisels. just cut right to the chase and get the mortise and dovetail chisels.

(the lie-nielsen bevel-edge socket chisels are actually dovetail chisels.)

anywho,

just my .02

dan

Thomas Knighton

02-20-2008, 5:55 AM

It does take some skill (and practice) to learn how to sharpen your new, or old, planes and chisels. Focus on learning to sharpen - become passionate about having a sharp tool... Brand name is secondary.

This is great advice. I had a chisel that got a little dull the other day. While trying to pare down some wood, the chisel slipped off the wood and right into my thumb. While it didn't require stitches, it was deep enough that it I wasn't sure of that at first.

I'm a newbie as well, and I had been using and abusing this chisel all day on 2x material (which I understand can be a pain to work with). I thought it was still sharp enough. Now, I know better.

Become fanatical about having sharp tools. You'll be happier in the long run, I assure you! It doesn't matter what method you use, scary sharp, water stones, Tormek or Worksharp, diamond stones, etc. Just make sure you know how to use them well and use them often! I don't think there's any such thing as a tool that's to sharp anyways, so go for it!

Dan,

For what it's worth, I have to recommend the Hand Tool Essentials from Pop Wood's folks. Great book and very comprehensive. However, I still need to snag the rest of those books, so who knows what I'm missing there ;)

Tom

Marcus Ward

02-20-2008, 6:28 AM

(Where is Marcus!!)

I have the flu.

I also got sick of swimming uphill against the avalanche of people with lots of disposable income.

Their answer: Spend all your money on tools, and spend a lot of money that isn't yours.

My answer: Don't buy marples/irwin chisels, they don't hold an edge. Don't spend more than 5$ per chisel. Get them at flea markets and such. If you're really cheap and have time and inclination to learn, buy the 7$ set of harbor freight chisels (junk) and heat treat them properly (awesome). All it requires is a blowtorch, a bucket of water, and a willingness to learn. I've found all you REALLY need when you start is 1 3/4" chisel. I reach for those (I have 4) more than any other chisel. You can splurge if you're going to just buy one, and buy others as you find you need them.

As for planes, read Patricks' blood and gore at http://www.supertool.com/ and you will learn all there is to know about Stanley planes. Learning to sharpen a tool properly is paramount. The nicest plane in the world is junk without having the blade sharp and tool set up right. On that point, even LN and LV sometimes, out of the box, won't be set up right. The toolmongers would have you believe otherwise, that they're all perfect from the box but it isn't true and if you don't have anyone to help you set up a stanley you probably don't have anyone around to help you set up a LN either.

And to that end I will once again put my money where my mouth is. If you buy an old stanley and can't figure it out you can email me with questoins, an unlimited number, and if we can't get it worked out via email, you can mail the thing to me and I will set it up for you. I know how it is to be poor and have want of tools. :)

M

Robert Rozaieski

02-20-2008, 8:18 AM

I agree with learning to sharpen first. I never understood why the first tool new hand tool users go for (or that people recommend to them) is a plane. I assume it's because of all the ink planes get, and the aura around them, but starting with a plane just doesn't make sense to me. It's the most complex of the hand tools. There are more knobs, levers, screws and other parts than in any other hand tool. And the thin blade can be hard to learn to hone if you've never really sharpened before (hence all the honing guides out there). When you were learning to drive a car did you jump right into an 18 wheeler? Then why jump right into the most complex of the hand tools right out of the gate?

My advise, skip the plane right now and start with a couple chisels, maybe ¼", ½", ¾" and 1". Then get some sharpening media (you decide what type, we won't get into that here) and an inexpensive grinder. Learn to grind and sharpen your chisels until they make pine end grain run in fear. The wide bevel of the chisel will make it easy to feel when it's flat on your sharpening media and make learning to hone a snap, especially if you hollow grind first.

Once you mastered sharpening the chisels, then think about a plane. 95% of tuning a plane is sharpening. If you know it's sharp and it's still not performing like you want it to, then you can try to adjust something else. I think the biggest mistake that new hand tool users make is that they get a plane first and immediately start lapping soles and messing with it before they even sharpen it and try it. I think if more new users sharpened and tried the tool before futzing with it, they would find that they don't require the hours of work that many people would have you believe they do. I personally have never spent more than 1 hour tuning a plane (longest was the metal jointer), including cleaning and flattening the sole (if it was needed).

josh bjork

02-20-2008, 9:07 AM

"I also got sick of swimming uphill against the avalanche of people with lots of disposable income."

Well, that line about killed me. Anyways, I bought a box of plastic handled chisels and they were 10+ years old, stanley, millers falls, buck and the like. I flattened the backs and that was some work but they were about 2-3$ a piece. I don't think the wood knows the plastic handle is there and you can hammer on 'em.

Billy Chambless

02-20-2008, 9:46 AM

I have the flu.

I also got sick of swimming uphill against the avalanche of people with lots of disposable income.

I'd reply to this, but I'm waiting for my Lie-Nielsen bronze keyboard and Veritas sarcasm jig to arrive.

;)

Danny Thompson

02-20-2008, 11:05 AM

Marcus Ward = the Ron Paul of woodworking

Even when I don't agree with his conclusions, I have to admit, he has a good argument. And you have to admire his conviction and dedication to the cause.

Glad you're feeling better, Marcus.

And here's another vote for the book Hand Tool Essentials by Popular Woodworking. Great book.

JayStPeter

02-20-2008, 12:10 PM

While I wouldn't discourage getting a book, I still encourage DVDs. I think, especially for handplanes, there's no substitute for seeing and hearing the action.

I'm not against buying old stuff either. But I can rant about it :cool:.
I have a couple old planes and a couple old chisels. But, I've wasted more time going to estate sales and flea markets looking for decent old tools. If I charged that time out at half my rate, I'd have a full set of LNs. It probably depends on your area and finding the right places, but for me it's largely a waste of time. I probably have 3 to 4 hrs. into finding each <$10 chisel (only half worth owning) and more like 6-10 hrs. after tuning in each old plane.
My experiences with some of the flea markets and estate sales have been less than enjoyable also. It's a pretty cutthroat market around here with lots of ebay sellers willing to go the extra effort more than I am. They get to the flea markets well before they open and harass the dealers before they are setup. They team up to wait overnight at estate sales so they are the first in and clean out anything good. I think they have deals with the estate sale companies to allow them in for a little bit before anyone else is let in. Like some others, I've had mixed results with ebay rust also.
While you can get more tools for less money, it's at the expense of lots of time and hassle. I don't have enough time to do what I want in the shop anyway, so I now choose not to spend it searching for the very occasional score. I slowly add nice new LV and LN tools when I can afford to. It does mean it will take me longer to get everything I want, but I enjoy spending more good time in my shop as opposed to getting aggrivated looking through rust that's already been picked through.
The only exception is that I've been to the PATINA show a couple times. The prices aren't low, but at least there's selection. The bargain hunters that aggrivate me at other places are probably the sellers there. :D

John Dykes

02-20-2008, 12:32 PM

Even when I don't agree with his conclusions, I have to admit, he has a good argument. And you have to admire his conviction and dedication to the cause.

Well done Danny...

This thread (as all "CLUELESS" plane threads) strikes very close to me. I was in this position just a few months ago. This board, video rentals from SmartFlix, several new and used books from Amazon, and many hours fiddling, reading, practicing - and I'm improving. (Of course, I must always voice special homage to David Charlesworth and his videos.)

As testament to my limited skill, I'm taking a Hand Tools 101 at the Woodcraft in Denver. We're talking 101 - "This, my dear students, is a hand plane..." To a chorus of "Ohhhh... Ahhhhh!!!" I wish I had taken this class 6 months ago.

Our instructor is, no doubt, a gifted woodworker. He also has a good deal of knowledge about hand tools and their use. I would wager it would take me years to gain a portion of his skill. That said - when not in the shop, I'm pouring over websites, videos, and old books - trying to gain knowledge when I can't gain skill. There are a few points I think I'd disagree on theory and\or practice with my instructor...

To point (RE: CLUELESS Handplane folks) - the other 7 people in the class, by and large, haven't touched hand tools. Last night was the "plane night" of our 4 night series. Some folks showed up with new Stanley block planes, another fella had a "vintage" Stanley Handyman (felt like it was made out of tin), one guy brought a brand new Veritas #4 (I've never seen one -and it looks complicated! I asked how it worked; and he didn't know, he just got it - nor did the instructor). One of the 8 was willing to buy a good first plane... The rest are facing an uphill battle - that they may never overcome.

One fella came and said that he didn't own a plane. "I've been looking at the ones in the case tonight, and they look pretty pricey - and I can't spend that much." The instructor told him if he could afford a Grotz, to get one - which he did. :eek:

They spent the entire class - trying to get that stupid thing to work, sharpening, tuning, sweating. I could see the despair on that guy's face when he was trying to push his first hand tool, his brand new plane, over the EDGE of a board - stuttering and skipping like it had a rubber sole and butter knife for a blade. This guy WANTS to learn to use hand tools, he paid $150 for the class (and $30 for the plane) for Christ sake - and I fear he's going to give up. I've been there fellas...

I brought a couple of planes - I told the instructor he could use one of mine, but he wanted him to work on the Grotz. Maybe my memory is too fresh - my memory of being there and giving up for 4 years. I saw this guy after class as he was climbing into his truck - he was pretty disappointed. I told him I'd try and get a Stanley tuned and sharpened for him before the next class, and he can use it a couple of months - so he doesn't get hung up on his new Grotz. If I could just get with that guy for a few hours...

Just bugs me my instructor led him down that path...

- jbd

Thomas Knighton

02-20-2008, 12:58 PM

FWIW, sometimes people luck up and get junk planes to work well. I've got a block plane I picked up at Tractor Supply Company several months ago. It cost me about $15. The odd thing is, it works pretty well right out of the box. Now, I have no doubts now that I'm an anomoly there, but some folks luck up and sometimes they think that their experience should be typical. Perhaps the instructor had decent luck with a Groz, who knows.

However, one shouldn't count on a junk plane working well. My block plane is, quite probably, the exception rather than the rule. Quality tools are important, and can be had in a whole range of prices. The thing is, generally, the more you pay for a quality tool, the less you have to do to it. The trick is to find where you're comfortable fitting into the market...the high end, ready to go, expensive tool; or the lower priced but still quality fixer-upper?

Personally, I can't say you'll go wrong with either approach.

Tom

Jim Koepke

02-20-2008, 2:40 PM

Well, that line about killed me. Anyways, I bought a box of plastic handled chisels and they were 10+ years old, stanley, millers falls, buck and the like. I flattened the backs and that was some work but they were about 2-3$ a piece. I don't think the wood knows the plastic handle is there and you can hammer on 'em.

And then, with time, you can either make new handles or purchase a nicer set and keep these for the dirty jobs and loaners.

Jim

Keeping his fingers behind the edge...

Clint Jones

02-20-2008, 2:58 PM

Well done Danny...

This guy WANTS to learn to use hand tools, he paid $150 for the class (and $30 for the plane) for Christ sake - and I fear he's going to give up. I've been there fellas...

- jbd

If someone wants to bring me some beer (preferably $150 worth:p) I would be happy to show them what to buy and how to tune and use it.

Jim Koepke

02-20-2008, 6:44 PM

If someone wants to bring me some beer (preferably $150 worth:p) I would be happy to show them what to buy and how to tune and use it.

Well, I do not drink much beer. Its stronger cousin ale is my preference.
But for that much ale, about 4 cases of my favorites, I would let you pick any one of my #4s for that, including the 604 and I would throw in the newest #4 and all the parts for the 5-1/4s to boot.

There are a #3 and #4 listed on uPay that close in the next few hours that I am almost ready to buy for the wood. Only problem is they both look like good users. The #4 looks to need a new blade.

There are also some 605s that do not look like bad deals, but they may go up in the last minutes as so often happens.

Jim

Recovering from failure is often easier than building from success.
– Michael D. Eisner

Marcus Ward

02-20-2008, 10:51 PM

James Owen

02-21-2008, 12:26 PM

Very good advice indeed.

i copied that list of books immediately. By the way James, which of those books is he most comprehensive on hand tools? they all look good, but if i bought just one, which would it be? ......

dan

Dan,

That's a bit of a tough question; the answer depends on what you're looking for, since each of the books covers hand tools from a somewhat different perspective, with different objectives in mind, and each having different strengths and weaknesses. Below are some comments that might be useful to you in deciding which book best fits your needs/interests.

If restoring vintage tools to a usable condition is the prime objective, Mike Dunbar's book is the one to choose. There is no better book on the "how-to" of restoring vintage hand tools, that I'm aware of. It also contains a good amount of historical information, as well as a lot of "how to use it" information, included as a part of the restoration process, to test how successful you've been in your restoration/tune-up effort. The breadth of its tool coverage is not quite as comprehensive as some of the other books, but it goes into great depth on the details of how to restore the (relatively wide) range of tools it covers. Hand planes (metal, wooden, molding, etc.) get the most coverage, but other edge tools -- such as spoke shaves and draw knives -- and tools such as bit braces are also covered.

For all-'round, general information on hand tools, some historical notes, what the tools look like, what they are used for, how they work, and how to use them (along with somewhat less information about tuning than Dunbar's book), Graham Blackburn's Traditional Woodworking Handtools gets my vote; Watson's book come in at a close 1½ place. Blackburn's book has better photos and drawings than Watson's, but both both are more or less comprehensive in their coverage and have lots of detailed information on the very wide range of hand tools they cover.

If your main interest is hand planes, then Planecraft is the hands-down winner. Just be aware that the book reads like a 250+ page advertisement for Record planes (those are the ones used throughout the book as examples, and I suspect that Record "sponsored" the book back in the 1930s, when it was written, apparently as a hand plane text for woodworking apprenticeship programs in the UK). Despite that, it contains a wealth of detailed information about virtually every type of metal hand plane ever made, much of it not readily available anywhere else. There is a good deal of very useful information on how to use a hand plane in many different circumstances, and it also contains many good photos of now-vintage planes. Even though is specifically covers Record brand planes, most of the information is directly applicable to Stanley planes.

Hand Tool Essentials goes into some of the finer points about hand tools, and may not necessarily be the best book to start with; it's probably better as more "advanced" reading, to fill in some of the gaps left by the other books. It generally approaches hand tools from the perspective of integrating them into a mixed tool (tailed apprentice and hand tool) shop. Even though the focus is fairly limited, it is a very useful book, with loads of detailed information.

Andy Rea's and Peter Korn's books are both excellent, and very thorough in their coverage of hand tools. Coverage is generally similar to Blackburn's and Watson's books. Either would make a good choice for a single book on hand tools, although my personal preference is Blackburn's book.

Dan Barr

02-21-2008, 1:08 PM

thanks for the response. i'll probably just try to get them all over time.

ciao,

dan

Jim Koepke

02-21-2008, 3:36 PM

I'm not against buying old stuff either. But I can rant about it.
I have a couple old planes and a couple old chisels. But, I've wasted more time going to estate sales and flea markets looking for decent old tools. If I charged that time out at half my rate, I'd have a full set of LNs. It probably depends on your area and finding the right places, but for me it's largely a waste of time. I probably have 3 to 4 hrs. into finding each <$10 chisel (only half worth owning) and more like 6-10 hrs. after tuning in each old plane.

If I have hours to bill, I am not heading to an estate sale. These are usually a day planned ahead of time by TLOML and myself. A local news service has listings of yard sales and estate sales and we map out our plan. I almost never do the flea markets any more. There is only one I know of that isn't all commercial dealers.

My experiences with some of the flea markets and estate sales have been less than enjoyable also. It's a pretty cutthroat market around here with lots of ebay sellers willing to go the extra effort more than I am. They get to the flea markets well before they open and harass the dealers before they are setup. They team up to wait overnight at estate sales so they are the first in and clean out anything good. I think they have deals with the estate sale companies to allow them in for a little bit before anyone else is let in. Like some others, I've had mixed results with ebay rust also.
While you can get more tools for less money, it's at the expense of lots of time and hassle.

Fight fire with fire, print up some cards on your home computer. Hand them out to likely suspects wherever you meet them.

I got up early for one estate sale where I snagged a very good Stanley #5 for $10. You may say big deal, but I also got a bucket of other things for another $15 including a small SW era try square, a bar clamp and a lot of other small hand tools and usable items.
That was one good hit out of many less than stellar stops.
One of my favorite hunts taught me a lesson of sorts. I had gone through an old tool chest and found a handful of useful tools. I was thinking to myself how I was going to approach this and not pay more than $5. The woman at the cash box looked at me and what I had and said how about a dollar. I was a little taken aback and before I could speak, my expression must have prompted her to say, "OK, how about 50 cents?"

I said OK and kept my mouth shut until the wife and I were back in the car.

I don't have enough time to do what I want in the shop anyway, so I now choose not to spend it searching for the very occasional score. I slowly add nice new LV and LN tools when I can afford to. It does mean it will take me longer to get everything I want, but I enjoy spending more good time in my shop as opposed to getting aggrivated looking through rust that's already been picked through.
The only exception is that I've been to the PATINA show a couple times. The prices aren't low, but at least there's selection. The bargain hunters that aggrivate me at other places are probably the sellers there. :D

If this works best for you that is great.
Lucky me, at my day job I have computer access and am able to schedule breaks to bid on the auction site that must not be named.
On some weekends when all feels right, my wife and I will have a date and do something we both enjoy, looking through stuff for the treasures we like and going out to breakfast and maybe even dinner.

jim

Where there is an open mind, there will always be a frontier.
– Charles Kettering

Jim Koepke

02-21-2008, 3:52 PM

Actually ale does not designate stronger or weaker, there are plenty of 3% ales sold in GB. It's taxed on the alcohol, so weaker is affordable. Ale merely designates how it is fermented. Ale yeast is top fermented at relatively warmer temps (65-70) while lager yeast is bottom fermented at much cooler temperatures. Either one can be strong or weak depending on the recipe. Beer is just an all around term encompassing beverages made from malted barley and hops and doesn't designate strength either. I make a lot of ale, over 100 gallons per year. What are your favorite kinds? I tend to favor maltier English style ales such as Fullers 1845 and London Porter. I like Scottish Wee Heavies and lots of Irish ales too. I don't really care for lager at all, it has an odd (to me) taste.

True, I usually do not use the term ale, it is all beer to me. But, being from California where the law used to be if it is more than 3.2%, it can not be sold as beer confounds the mind.

I like porters and stouts, Guinness is one my wife knows I will drink, so she buys it for me all the time.
I do like Samuel Smith's Oatmeal Stout and Nut Brown Ale.
Here on the left coast we have a lot of breweries. Not too many of them make a bad product. I have favorites from almost all of them.

My brother and I have brewed beer in the past, but one only can do so many things.
I am trying to figure out a few I can quit doing so maybe I can brew again.

jim

A mind stretched to a new idea, never goes back to its original dimensions.
– Oliver Wendell Holmes

Quesne Ouaques

02-22-2008, 1:21 PM

Any thoughts on Veritas/Lee Valley?

Chuck

Recently, I have been on a very similar mission. I had a few basic planes that have served me over the years, but my collection was missing a jack plane, a shoulder plane and a good smoothing plane.

I looked at most of the under-a-hundred-bucks jack and smoothing planes from Amant, Stanley, Groz, etc. I was so disappointed in the quality that I decided to bite the bullet and take a serious look at Lee Valley and Lie Nielsen. Coincidentally, both companies were displaying at the woodworking show in Somerset, NJ last weekend.

Both companies had excellent displays and were really helpful. I ended up ordering three planes from Lee Valley: The low-angle Jack, the medium shoulder, and the low-angle block with the optional ball and large tote. I liked the feel of the low-angle block with the tote so much I decided to wait on a smoothing plane! I was also very tempted by the bull-nose too, but my budget would not allow it.

I think both companies make an excellent product. Lie Nielsen uses tried-and-true designs with the absolute best quality materials and workmanship. You could not possibly go wrong buying their planes. I was really taken by many of the innovative design features of the Veritas tools, though. By the way, customer service has been excellent every time I've dealt with them in the past, and this time was no different. I would highly recommend them.

Joe D'Attilio

02-22-2008, 3:06 PM

Coincidentally, both companies were displaying at the woodworking show in Somerset, NJ last weekend.

I totally forgot about this :(

From being a newbie myself; and still am...I can only suggest what has been suggested to me.

Chisels - Irwin Maples blue chips - from the general consensus, while honing your sharpening techniques(pun def intended). No use burning up a $300 set when you can burn a $40 set :) In all sincerity; I myself tried to put together Stanley 750's /Bucks - problem is if you're looking to put together a matching set there are some sizes that are always for sale and the others are not to be found.
Hitting up one of the well-known antique dealers of hand tools = $$$$$

Planes - in my short time I picked up a Stanley #3,4,5,7, and a 9 1/4 (Rusty old thing my dad handed to me - "Here can you use this?":rolleyes:
2 from ebay - 2 from creekers (THANKS AGAIN CLINT JONES)

Now i'm in the market for plouughs, rabbets, routers and fillesters.

I'm lucky, I have a creeker (Robert Rozaieski) who, GOD BLESS HIM; I visit once every 2-3 weeks and pick up random tips and techniques - sure i can learn on my own, but after visiting and reading his posts...I get solid advice that doesn't break the bank (We'll get some pics to prove it next time...) Last week I took down my galoot and we sharpened a disston handsaw filed to rip and cleaned up the 9 1/4 block.

Next visit= shooting board

Anyway those are my $.02 - hope its helpful

Will I own LN/LV's planes? Wenzloff saws? Eventually - just not physically/financially...ready for them.